Was the war justified?

[BUDDY]

I think everyone here is missing the point.

TA is too far to the left and everyone else seems to be too far to the right.

The truth is that we can talk about defending our freedom and liberty and they are valid arguments but in all fairness the USA has spent a half century following foreign policy that deprives other peoples of these self same freedoms and liberties for our own benefit.

We have not in any way ever promoted democratic reform for the sake of democratic reform.

These peoples are not pissed off because they "despise our freedoms" (I`ve never heard such a transparent line of BS).
These peoples are pissed off because we actively deprive them of the same freedoms.

I`m hoping Iraq will be different.

What is the Islamist attitude toward democracy? Much publicity was given to a January statement by the al-Qaida leader in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi – who, it should be remembered, is not an Iraqi – who condemned democracy as intrinsically heretical by giving authority to the people instead of to the deity, to the human hand not divine law.

http://www.turkishweekly.net/comments.php?id=547

H3e basically calls democracy evil because it puts the people above the church.

 

[Scuba Pete]

What's a fachist???

 

[Scuba Pete]

I don't believe that's what he said... you probably don't believe it either, but you excel in going over the top and delight in being abrasive.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

These peoples are not pissed off because they "despise our freedoms" (I`ve never heard such a transparent line of BS).

Neither have I. Your BS is particularly transparent in light of the following:

“We have declared a fierce war on this evil principle of democracy and those who follow this wrong ideology,” said the speaker, who identified himself as Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, head of the al-Qaida affiliate in Iraq.
-- http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6855496/

 

[Scuba Pete]

Spinks is right... the BS you refer to is their professed ideology. They really don't believe in the freedom of speech.

 

[BUDDY]

To be honest Eew Red, I wouldn't give a flying f. what you think I sound like.

Obviously.

When "reason" starts to sound like the terrorists as claimed by the "If you are not with us, you are with them" idiots, then there is something wrong with the picture you are programmed with, so sorry sunshine. but that dog won't hunt.

So now anyone who doesn't agree with you is an idiot? Or you have a monopoly on the truth? Or no one is allowed to disagree with you? Sound alot like the fanaticism to me. So much for the tolerance of the left.:sarcastic

Whether you are with us or not, is not the point. The point is you are not with us, and yet we are still committed to protecting you regardless of your obvious hatred.

If everyone disagreeing with a fachists is a terrorist, sounds like a terrorists, or at least supports the terrorist cause.. That would prove my point right of the bat.

Yes, I said you were sounding like the terrorists in the aspect of your hatred for the military. Not that you were a terrorist. And you do sound like some of the propoganda that put out by a lot of them. If you don't like it, its not my fault, you're the one that said it. Don't blame me because I simply point it out!! Please reread previous post a little more carefully. And unless I am mistaken, I have not seen you use the term fascist in this thread before, so who are you refering to, the military or the government?

I won't comment on Goebles, except to state that the comparison is a reach at the least, and desperation at the most. Try again.

You do make some great points though....seriously, you do.....seriously, look how much I care....look, I really care........:areyoucra

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Cheers to NetDoc for remembering that those that are being sent to serve are not the ones responsible.

I believe the quote TA might have been referring to was

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." -- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

which can sadly be found (confirmed) at Urban Legends.

More power to anyone that can debate this without name-calling or sensationalism. It's unfortunate that the truth, nowadays, is only harmed by sensationalism, since it's so horrific that it's hard to believe as it is.

 

[Sunstone]

***MOD POST***

Be careful folks. Keep this discussion civil.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

To be honest Eew Red, I wouldn't give a flying f. what you think I sound like.

Whoops, I'd managed to skip by this one. TA, you've just lost all credibility and honor to me. At a time, I would've cared that that might have any impact on you, but saying something so unkind and abrasive to someone who has never been likewise is uncalled for.

 

[TranceAm]

FREEDOM of SPEECH, you either believe in it, or you don't.

 

[emoaref]

What should the US do now? Probably leave, and don't go to war unless they are willing to fight it right. There is no reason that it should have gotten so out of hand.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

*MOD POST*

Please remember, folks, that personal attacks are against the forum rules. Please stick to the topic of "Was the war Justified?" Thanks.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Thanks for the reminder, Spinks!

Back on topic, no. *imagining a thread that's just people saying 'yes' and 'no'*

Maybe I'd better elaborate... I think there are some good elements that have come of it, but I don't think that the reasoning to go to war was justified.

 

[Sunstone]

The other question in the OP was what should the US do now.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

The other question in the OP was what should the US do now.

For those of you (like myself) who think the Iraqis grew hateful to the U.S. for not supporting their rebellion against Saddam after the Persian Gulf War....they would hate us exponentially more if we pulled out now and left their country to ruin. As for the Islamic radicals....they'll hate us pretty much no matter what we do. I think we should focus on helping Iraq establish a sustainable democratic government.

 

[Dr. Khan]

We have toppled one of the secular governments Osama was against. Osama was Saddam's enemy. We brought ****tes to power who will eventually have sharia law. They can't resist it. The Mullahs will whip them into a frenzy like the religious right has done with the republicans here. Eventually Dr. Khan will be able to give the bomb to all his Muslim neighbors. So I have to beat him to the punch.
From one Dr.Khan to another.
Khan!!!!!!

 

[linwood]

Neither have I. Your BS is particularly transparent in light of the following:

“We have declared a fierce war on this evil principle of democracy and those who follow this wrong ideology,” said the speaker, who identified himself as Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, head of the al-Qaida affiliate in Iraq.
-- http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6855496/


It is FACT that the "They hate us because they hate our freedom" has been used repeatedly.

Do you think these people just woke up one day and decided to hate what the US stands for?
Are you going to tell me our policies did nothing to persuade them towards these thoughts?

Are they justified?

Hell no, but that doesn`t change the fact that if we don`t start treating the world as something other than our own personal Walmart were we can simply take what we want regardless of the repercussions our actions have on other peoples then this will CONTINUE FOREVER!

The Shah of Iran
Support for the totalitarian Saudi Royals
Failure to even acknowledge we were responsible for screwing the Palestinians
Lack of critical thought for complete support for Isreals occupations
Inciting tens of thousands of Iraqis to rebel against Saddam and then refusing to launch even one single aircraft to offer these people aid.
We led them to certain slaughter...Bay of Pigs anyone?
All we had to do was to keep Saddams helicopters out of the air and we never would have had to fight this war a second time.
Our representatives ok`d saddams invasion of Kuwait and then we changed our minds and kicked him out.
Who was it that re-wrote the map of the middle east after WW2 and just forgot that the Kurds actually had a country before they re-wrote it?

If you want to throw that hook out with AlQueda as bait please explain to me what the hell we`re doing in Iraq.
There was no AlQueda in Saddams Iraq..none, nada, naft.
If we`re after those who attacked us why aren`t we in Pakistan right now?

Why?

Are you telling me that if this nation was really committed to finding Bin Laden he wouldn`t be sitting in GitMo right now on a leash with some idiot female reservist pointing and laughing at his genitals?
Thats BS

We have less than 7k troops in Afganistan and they aren`t even looking for the guy for the most part.
Mr.Bush doesn`t even give him much thought.
His own words.

Iraq didn`t attack us AlQueda did

We are not innocent in this mess and until we learn to deal with the rest of the world with some humility and actual concern for what impact our actions have on others we will always be a target.

Nothing is as black and white as you see it.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

There was no AlQueda in Saddams Iraq..none, nada, naft.

This statement is wrong....false, incorrect, not true. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was and is currently in Iraq.

Nothing is as black and white as you see it.

Thanks. I do not doubt that many many Arabs hate the United States for all sorts of reasons. Still, the Islamic radicals who cut off heads in the name of God, who kidnap the families of politicians running for office in Iraq's fledgling democracy, and who drive truckloads of explosives into lines of Iraqis hoping to become police officers certainly do hate the U.S (and the rest of the West) because their ideology is one of theocracy and oppression, and coordinate their attacks in an effort to intimidate with the ultimate goal of prohibiting the "evil idea of democracy" from becoming a reality in Iraq.

 

[linwood]

This statement is wrong....false, incorrect, not true. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was and is currently in Iraq.

The statement is not false.
Notice I said "Saddams Iraq"
That area was not Saddams, it was ours.

He was in northern Iraq "Kurdistan" under the umbrella of the northern "No-Fly zone"

Saddam had no control of those territories they were under Kurdish control and our airspace.
Technically Zarqawis training camp was under our protection..
:biglaugh:
What a riot.
Saddam couldn`t have sent a jeep in there let alone any actual force of arms if he had wanted to.

The really funny thing is that even after we were aware of Zarqawis camp we didn`t bomb it even though we had bombers flying through there daily.
Nope, we held it up as evidence at Powells famously "misleading" presentation at the UN so they`d have plenty of warning to evac.
If we would have bombed it maybe Zarqawi wouldn`t be there now.
But we didn`t, maybe for some of the same reasons Bin Laden isn`t in custody yet.

You are repeating this administrations lies Spinks.

Zarqawis camp was in our allies territory, not Saddams.
The skies above his head were ruled by US warplanes, not Iraqi.

The Kurds had a line drawn in the sand that Saddam didn`t dare step over for fear of US bombs.
Zarqawi was on "our" side of that line...training terrorists..to make ricin.
We let him.

Edit:
Not that it really matters considering the leader of the 9/11 attack lived 13 miles from me here in sunny Florida where he learned how to fly a plane.

Damn..AlQueda was in my neighborhood.
Who`d a thunk it?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Well you're right that Zarqawi was in Kurdish territory...as for your allegation that Bush knew where he was and left him alone, I fail to see a plausible motive for such an action, much less evidence to support it.

At any rate, you're spinning the issue and we're getting off-topic. Whether we could have killed Zarqawi or not makes no difference: the fact remains that he's our enemy, he hates democracy and secularism, and there are a lot of radicals who share his ideology....the only "transparent BS" here is the denial of this fact.