Ajax
Active Member
No, Gerar became a tiny village some 1000 years after Abraham.I have the backing of all archeologists, as opposed to your word only..
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Was there evidence of the Philistines around 1500 BCE, before the time of the Exodus?
- Thread starter River Sea
- Start date
No, Gerar became a tiny village some 1000 years after Abraham.I have the backing of all archeologists, as opposed to your word only..
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
Below is a 1200BC map of the twelve tribes of Israel; book of Joshua, given to the 10 sons and two grandson of Jacob.
Judah from which the Jews are related is one of the twelve tribes, and not all of the 12 tribes. The 12 tribes were scattered, but only Judah has come home to claim their land and act as a placeholder for the rest of the tribes. Their territory is in the southern portion.
In the map below, Jerusalem is in the Land of the Tribe of Benjamin. To the Left of the tribe of Simeon; bottom, is some ocean front land not part of the inheritance of the twelve tribe; in tan. That seems to belong to Philistia (includes GAZA). This might be Palestine. The problem is Hamas will not allow peaceful coexistence and Israel feels the need for a buffer zone.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Wikipedia says the Philistines arrived in Canaan in 1175 BCE. It is unknown where the Sea Peoples such as the Philistines came from; one theory is that the Philistines came from Macedonia (Greece).
There is no actual archeological or historical evidence that the exodus as described in the Bible happened. However, those who believe in the Exodus because part of their faith is believing in the historicity of the Bible, try to date it by when Ramses II was Pharoah, approximately 1300 BCE.
Some do. others do not. So, for example:
The Biblical Date for the Exodus Is 1446 BC: A Response to James Hoffmeier
The date of the Biblical Exodus-Conquest is clear. 1 Kgs 6:1 and 1 Chr 6:33–37 converge on a date of 1446 BC for the exodus and the Jubilees data and Judges 11:26 independently converge on a date of 1406 BC for the beginning of the conquest. The 1406 BC date is further confirmed by archaeological data from Jericho, Ai (Kh. el-Maqatir) and Hazor. [source]
Bharat Jhunjhunwala
TruthPrevails
All I am saying is that the disconnect can be solved in two ways. I agree with the archaeologists.
I have the backing of all archeologists, as opposed to your word only..
Bharat Jhunjhunwala
TruthPrevails
Again, the disconnect between scripture and archaeology can be solved by relocating the geography or redacting the text. That is the hard choice.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
No it can't. The truth is, I think this Indian claim is so ridiculous, that I have no intention of wasting time discussing it with you.
Ajax
Active Member
The consensus of modern scholars is that the Pentateuch does not give an accurate account of the origins of the Israelites, who appear instead to have formed as an entity in the central highlands of Canaan in the late second millennium BCE from the indigenous Canaanite culture. However most scholars who accept a historical core of the exodus date this possible exodus group to the thirteenth century BCE at the time of Ramses II, with some instead dating it to the twelfth century BCE at the time of Ramses III.
The Exodus - Wikipedia
Ajax
Active Member
What ways? That the Philistines originated from India?
@Ajax : I have no issue with you trying to school me on such things. Nevertheless, in this particular case:
- It is entirely unnecessary. My bookshelf includes texts by Dever, Faust, I. Finkelstein, R.E. Friedman, Isserlin, Kelle/Moore, Levy|/Schneider/Propp, A. Mazar, D. Redford, as well as books on related subjects. Unless you are offering relatively new research, I almost certainly understand this stuff at least as well as you do.
- More to the point, your comment is entirely irrelevant. Were you to have paid attention to the discourse you might have realized that I was responding to the statement: "those who believe in the Exodus because part of their faith is believing in the historicity of the Bible, try to date it [to] approximately 1300 BC." [emphasis added - JS] The sole purpose of my comment was to note that an earlier date is offered by some apologists.
Ajax
Active Member
Sorry my wrong and didn't try to school you. I didn't realize in what you referred to.
Or one can simply acknowledge it as an anachronism and move on. Trying to rescue a tale from the impact of science by fabricated convenient 'truths' is unhelpful at best.
Philistines were Sea Peoples .. groups of people who made their living through the Sea and would colonize certain Ports Tyre for Example is a port colonized by the Phonecians .. north of ports attributes other sea peoples .. These peoples came from Greece Sardinia and other places .. and so yes these peoples were around 1500 BC .. but at this time Egypt had control of the region .. don't think as far as Tyre .. the HIttites another power in the region at the time... so the sea colonists did not have much luck the other empires too strong.
The Exodus did not happen in this time period regardless of the Philistine Presence. Egypt had a firm grasp on all the cities in Canaan .. and the Hittites a firm grasp to the north . There was no band of Nomadic Tribes gaining a foothold anywhere in the region until the Bronze Age Collapse .. when the Hittite Empire Disappeared from History .. not to be found until ~ 100 years ago .. Egypt was dramaticly weakened .. Greek empire disappeared .. Babylonian and Assyrian Empires disappeared ... and we have a dark age in the region .. cities are all distroyed .. all the people dispersed .. this is when these nomadic tribes become the Big Dog's in town ... in this literal power vacuum such that by around 1000 BC .. not 1300 BC .. King David of the Israelites takes over Jerusalem and unites the Tribes - (and cities they have taken over) into a Nation .. which lasts - albeit divided into Northern and Southern Kingdom .. the Southern like Puerto Rico as .. the Northern Kingdom being where the action was. This nation survived for 2 centuries .. then cam Assyria
Though a small point, I would suggest that the term "confederacy" is probably more appropriate that the (overused) term "Nation."
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Looks like Wiki did a small whoopsie. The Canaanites were not indigenous to Canaan. Anthropologists say that the origins of the Canaanites were as follows: a group migrated from the Caucasus Mountains, and intermarried with a Neolithic people that already existed there, and the resulting new culture was the Canaanites.
"It turned out the Greeks were half right: About 50% of the Canaanites' genes came from local farmers who settled the Levant about 10,000 years ago. But the other half was linked to an earlier population identified from skeletons found in Iran, the team reports today in The American Journal of Human Genetics."
"The genes of Canaanite individuals proved to be a mix of local Neolithic people and the Caucasus migrants, who began showing up in the region around the start of the Bronze Age."
DNA from the Bible's Canaanites lives on in modern Arabs and Jews
A study of ancient DNA traces the surprising heritage of these mysterious Bronze Age people.
www.nationalgeographic.com
If you really are interested in the indigenous people of Canaan, Wikipedia has this good article. Scroll down to the section on the Paleolithic era. Basically, the first time homo sapiens tried to settle the Levant, they were unsuccessful, and overtaken by local Neanderthal culture. That was around 90,000 BCE. A second and successful attempt by homo sapiens out of Africa to settle the Levant came around 50,000 BCE. Anthropologists have labeled this culture the Boker Tachtit. So, the "indigenous people" of the Levant would be the Boker Tachtit, not the Canaanites.
History of the ancient Levant - Wikipedia
Right .. perhaps like the Soviet Union .. or better the 13 colonies under British vassalship... The difference being that in 200 years Israel did not rise to the height of the USA in 1776- 1976. That was the good old days when we were pre-eminent world economic and military power ... like the Persion Empire.. cept will fall much quicker than Persia.
What ever we wish to call the Entity "Israel" -- they had garnered respect from the two major powers at the time Egypt and Phonecia .. none of this was Jerusalem much of a deal . .. a sparsly populated town .. but having religious significance as one of the "High Places" looked upon a sacred - where Sacrifices were held and religious festivities from time to time.
In the "hay days" - when Israel was a going concern - there was many temples to YHWH .. and temples to other God's right Beside it/ just down the lane in Temple Row. In the Temple of YHWH .. one might try one of the many temple Prostitutes .. boy or girl .. what ever your pleasure .. should you wish to pray to Asherah .. her seat situated besided Lord YHWH - the thick smell of Cannibis oil in the Air .. now confirmed (and I kid you not .. google it) .. and should it be hard times .. a time of war.. where one really needs the favor of War God Lord YHWH to intervene .. a high place to sacrifice one of the inncent ones .. typicaly the "First Fruits" -- such as done by Jephthah when he sacrificed his daughter to Lord YHWH .. in hopes of a good war result .. or the sacrifice to concecrate a cities walls .. as normally conducted as per Hebrew Ritual .. some interesting rituals these nomadic tribes .. and of course would vary from region to region in the confederacy .. each tribes rituals different from the other.
All this Polytheism was the rule of the day for the entirty of "Israel" .. once the Northern Kingdom taken = Israel no more. The backwards mountain goat herders surrounding Jerusalem .. Judites and Benjaminites (nice history the Benjaminites .. being completely wiped out at one point if you recall) -- that was too much of a pain to be bothered with at the time ... then Assyria distracted by other problems .. "The Medes" and Babylonians .. and other
Even after this .. Judah remained polytheism .. the Male Temple Prostitutes not kicked out until just prior to the Babylonians burning down the house .. the place where YHWH's name supposedly resided destroyed .. Marduk winning the battle between the 70 Sons of The Supreme one .. YHWH snuffed out.
Perhaps less pontification and more citation would help.
Looks like Wiki did a small whoopsie. The Canaanites were not indigenous to Canaan. Anthropologists say that the origins of the Canaanites were as follows: a group migrated from the Caucasus Mountains, and intermarried with a Neolithic people that already existed there, and the resulting new culture was the Canaanites.
"It turned out the Greeks were half right: About 50% of the Canaanites' genes came from local farmers who settled the Levant about 10,000 years ago. But the other half was linked to an earlier population identified from skeletons found in Iran, the team reports today in The American Journal of Human Genetics."
"The genes of Canaanite individuals proved to be a mix of local Neolithic people and the Caucasus migrants, who began showing up in the region around the start of the Bronze Age."
DNA from the Bible's Canaanites lives on in modern Arabs and Jews
A study of ancient DNA traces the surprising heritage of these mysterious Bronze Age people.
If you really are interested in the indigenous people of Canaan, Wikipedia has this good article. Scroll down to the section on the Paleolithic era. Basically, the first time homo sapiens tried to settle the Levant, they were unsuccessful, and overtaken by local Neanderthal culture. That was around 90,000 BCE. A second and successful attempt by homo sapiens out of Africa to settle the Levant came around 50,000 BCE. Anthropologists have labeled this culture the Boker Tachtit. So, the "indigenous people" of the Levant would be the Boker Tachtit, not the Canaanites.
History of the ancient Levant - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Canaanites --- both Arabs - Ishmael .. and Israelites - Isaac - Thats all one need know .. and the offspring of these two brothers intermarried like crazy right from the Get Go .. what comes out of that we get a bunch ofd groups speaking Neo-Canaanite languages .. Hebrew being a branch that did not yet exist in the time of old Abe .. who was adopted by the Canaanite High God .. El Shaddai .. El Elyon .. El Oliun - "The Supreme one" of Psalm 82.. https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/psa82.pdf
Make sure to read between the lines
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The Canaanites were not Arabs. Arab tribes originated in Arabia, not the Levant, and came into being long after the Canaanites. It is true that today both Arabs and Jews are genetically descended from Canaanites.Canaanites --- both Arabs - Ishmael .. and Israelites - Isaac - Thats all one need know .. and the offspring of these two brothers intermarried like crazy right from the Get Go .. what comes out of that we get a bunch ofd groups speaking Neo-Canaanite languages .. Hebrew being a branch that did not yet exist in the time of old Abe .. who was adopted by the Canaanite High God .. El Shaddai .. El Elyon .. El Oliun - "The Supreme one" of Psalm 82.. https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/psa82.pdf
Make sure to read between the lines
River Sea
Well-Known Member
@Jayhawker Soule @Bharat Jhunjhunwala
Yes, you're correct. @Jayhawker Soule - The Biblical date for the Exodus is 1446 BC. A Response to James Hoffmeier, and I think @Bharat Jhunjhunwala has similarities with some of James Hoffmeier information comprehension; am I understanding correctly?
What areas, @Bharat Jhunjhunwala do you have similarities with James Hoffmeier that you want to research more into?