Was there evidence of the Philistines around 1500 BCE, before the time of the Exodus?

[Sargonski]

The Canaanites were not Arabs. Arab tribes originated in Arabia, not the Levant, and came into being long after the Canaanites. It is true that today both Arabs and Jews are genetically descended from Canaanites.

Sorry Friend .. you are talking the wrong period of time .. wrong Arabs. Arabs - by tradition - were descended from Ishmael .. round the time of Abe ~ 1800 BC .. which you then get around to saying later in your post.. completely contraditing your initial claim that Canaanites were not Arabs.

I did not claim that all Canaanites were Arabs .. what I said was both Arabs and Israelites were canaanites. and then .. went on to say that all Israelites are Arabs .. via intermarriage with the seed of Ishmail and all the other canaanites around them .. for hundreds of years.. . then out of this hodge podge some of these tribal nomads ended up hooking up with other Semetic tribes for battle against Egypt .. winning that bettle .. and ruling for ~ 100 years when Egyptians took over .. and made life rough for some of the Semetic Nomads .. who .. as all peoples in Canaan were ripe targets for the Slave Trade .. many of these peoples regularly enslaved as a matter of commerce.

Hundreds of years later .. we have some migrations of these Nomads and former nomads out of Egypt and back into Canaan .. round the time of the Bronze age Collapse . which wiped out all competition in the region .. the various nomadics having a hay day .. most of the city states up for grabs .. a dark age time of anarchy.... When some group of Canaanite nomadic Tribes closely related to the Midianites .. who gave Moses his God .. grouped together into a coalition and started taking land.

All the peoples Joshua was fighting were their brother Cannanites .. Elamites - Moabites - Amalekites - and so on .. no distinction between arab and Canaanite and Israelite .. all the same Ethnic Group of people ..

You can't distinguish a Jew from an Arab on the basis of the Abraham Story .. both one in the same -- full stop .. as you end up claiming.

 

[Ajax]

Looks like Wiki did a small whoopsie. The Canaanites were not indigenous to Canaan. Anthropologists say that the origins of the Canaanites were as follows: a group migrated from the Caucasus Mountains, and intermarried with a Neolithic people that already existed there, and the resulting new culture was the Canaanites.

Yes and no. Perhaps the "indigenous" was presented to mean people who were living there, and/or the half-Canaanite/Neolithic indigenous people who existed there.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

@Jayhawker Soule @Bharat Jhunjhunwala

Yes, you're correct. @Jayhawker Soule - The Biblical date for the Exodus is 1446 BC.

I do not view the Book of Exodus as History nor Torah as a preferred dating source.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I do not view the Book of Exodus as History nor Torah as a preferred dating source.

Me either. Even Tinder is better than that, Swipe left, swipe left, swipe left. Oooh. Hello! Swipe right.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Arabs - by tradition - were descended from Ishmael ..

This is a religious belief, and there is no evidence to support it in science. I'm approaching this from a purely scientific POV. I'm not at all opposed to you having such a belief. We're good. I'm just saying that it is not part of our conversation about who the Canaanites were.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes and no. Perhaps the "indigenous" was presented to mean people who were living there, and/or the half-Canaanite/Neolithic indigenous people who existed there.

The word indigenous refers to the first homo sapiens to occupy a territory. The Canaanites were not that.

 

[Sargonski]

This is a religious belief, and there is no evidence to support it in science. I'm approaching this from a purely scientific POV. I'm not at all opposed to you having such a belief. We're good. I'm just saying that it is not part of our conversation about who the Canaanites were.

Of course there is evidence in science?? ... you presented such evidence yourself that both Arabs and Jews are genetically descended from Canaanites. ?

and so of course who the Cananites were is part of the conversation .. and in fact IS the conversation .. that the Canaanites were both Arab Israelite - Jew .. a fact according to you

A religious belief with total support in Science .. in a thread about Religious belief.

What did you think the conversation was about ?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I do not view the Book of Exodus as History nor Torah as a preferred dating source.

Me either. Even Tinder is better than that, Swipe left, swipe left, swipe left. Oooh. Hello! Swipe right.

I have no clue what that means, but let me be clear; I do not view the Exodus narrative or the Torah as a whole as warranting disrespect.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I have no clue what that means, but let me be clear; I do not view the Exodus narrative or the Torah as a whole as warranting disrespect.

I only disrespect it that way for literalists and I know that you do not abuse the Bible in that way. That joke was not aimed at you but rather at the literalists. So if I did offend you I do apologize. I do not see the Bible as being without merit, but in my opinion that is what literalists do to it.

As to the joke:

What is Tinder? Here's what you should know about the popular dating app

Tinder is an online dating app famous for its swipe and match feature that offers paid subscriptions and a revamped "match" algorithm.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Of course there is evidence in science?? ... you presented such evidence yourself that both Arabs and Jews are genetically descended from Canaanites. ?

and so of course who the Cananites were is part of the conversation .. and in fact IS the conversation .. that the Canaanites were both Arab Israelite - Jew .. a fact according to you

A religious belief with total support in Science .. in a thread about Religious belief.

What did you think the conversation was about ?

This subthread? It's about proven reality. Not beliefs. If someone asks me "What does your religion say is the origin of the Ishmaelites" I will have one answer. If they ask, "What is the origin of the Ishmaelites" that's an entirely different question with a different answer.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

You

word indigenous refers to the first homo sapiens to occupy a territory. The Canaanites were not that

How do we know?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You

How do we know?

Because Geneticists have determined that the Canaanites have their origins in a people from the Caucasus mountains of Iran migrating to the Levant and intermarrying with the Neolithic people there.

DNA from the Bible's Canaanites lives on in modern Arabs and Jews

A study of ancient DNA traces the surprising heritage of these mysterious Bronze Age people.

www.nationalgeographic.com

We also know from Archaeology that the very first group of people of the Levant were the a homo sapiens group some 90,000 years ago who were unsuccessful in settling there. A second group of Paleolithic people that scientists refer to as the Boker Tachtit, did successfully settle in the Levant some 50,000 years ago. We can say then that these were the indigenous modern humans to the Levant since were the first group of homo sapiens to successfully settle there. They lived there alongside Neanderthals.

History of the ancient Levant - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[shunyadragon]

What's a philistine and where are you focused on?

Heck an exodus is suspect as written in torah. No actual record anywhere.

. . . until after 600 BCE

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What's a philistine and where are you focused on?

There is ample archaeological evidence of teh Philistines. They were one of the Sea Peoples that devastated the eastern Mediterranean during the Bronze Age Collapse. Evidence such as pottery style links them to Macedonia (Greece). They established a colony in Canaan in 1175 BCE.

 

[shunyadragon]

@Bthoth any carvings to show that Moses married Tharbis from Ethiopia

Philistines
Place is Mohenjo Daro
Gerar, Land of the Philistines
Hindu name is Girivraja, Rajgriha, Magadha

Did Tharbis ever travel with Moses to Gerar, land of the Philistines

Yet later Moses had to avoid Gerar, land of the Philistines how come?

Any carvings to show this?
Because later Akhenaten was at KMT—many think it was Moses—so was Akhenaten ever married to Tharbis? Did Moses arrive at KMT, who was Akhenaten? So was Akhenaten living in the Indus Valley and traveling to KMT?

No historical records what to ever untill after 600 BCE when the Pentateuch was compiled.

 

[shunyadragon]

There is ample archaeological evidence of teh Philistines. They were one of the Sea Peoples that devastated the eastern Mediterranean during the Bronze Age Collapse. Evidence such as pottery style links them to Macedonia (Greece). They established a colony in Canaan in 1175 BCE.

I disagree. 19th and early imagined Philistines under every rock, but more recent archaeology and research has found little or no evidence.

Features - The Philistine Age - Archaeology Magazine - July/August 2022

Archaeologists are reconsidering the origins andhistory of a much-maligned ancient people

www.archaeology.org

Finds from limited excavations during the early twentieth century pointed archaeologists to the Aegean as the Philistines’ original homeland. The conquerors, they imagined, were Mycenaeans, members of the Late Bronze Age culture of ancient Greece remembered in the epic poems of the Trojan War, Homer’s Iliad and Odyssey. Since the 1990s, archaeologists have extensively excavated four of the five cities of the Philistine Pentapolis: Ashdod, Ashkelon, Ekron, and Gath. Only Gaza, which is located beneath the modern Palestinian city of the same name, remains unexcavated. These digs, particularly the long-term excavations of the ruins of Gath beneath Tell es-Safi, have helped archaeologists tell a more nuanced story about the origins of the Philistines, which may lie in a series of mass migrations rather than waves of conquest. “Understanding the Philistines as this singular, unified migratory group that came from somewhere in Greece, landed on the coast, and conquered the Canaanite cities no longer makes sense,” says Bar-Ilan University archaeologist Aren Maeir, who directs the Tell es-Safi excavations.

 

[shunyadragon]

So Abraham lived where Gerar was located. We may dismiss present location of Gerar rather than Abraham.

The present archaeological evidence can easily dismiss Abraham.

 

[shunyadragon]

Below is a 1200BC map of the twelve tribes of Israel; book of Joshua, given to the 10 sons and two grandson of Jacob.

Judah from which the Jews are related is one of the twelve tribes, and not all of the 12 tribes. The 12 tribes were scattered, but only Judah has come home to claim their land and act as a placeholder for the rest of the tribes. Their territory is in the southern portion.

In the map below, Jerusalem is in the Land of the Tribe of Benjamin. To the Left of the tribe of Simeon; bottom, is some ocean front land not part of the inheritance of the twelve tribe; in tan. That seems to belong to Philistia (includes GAZA). This might be Palestine. The problem is Hamas will not allow peaceful coexistence and Israel feels the need for a buffer zone.

This map reflects illusions of delusions of an imaginary map of the Levant based on the Pentateuch in ~1200 BCE, but . . at this time I believe the Hittites and Phoenicians controlled the North and the Egyptians controlled the South. The Canaanites in Megiddo and Kadesh losing out to the Egyptians and Hittites,The Hebrews were a pastoral Canaanite hill tribe in Judah that moved in became a power between 1000-600 BCE as two Kingdoms in the Levant as the Egyptians weakened and left. The left over Canaanites simply melded with their brothers the Hebrews.

 

[Sargonski]

This subthread? It's about proven reality. Not beliefs. If someone asks me "What does your religion say is the origin of the Ishmaelites" I will have one answer. If they ask, "What is the origin of the Ishmaelites" that's an entirely different question with a different answer.

"Proven Reality" -=- such as that both Arabs and Israelites are descended from the Canaanites. Which concurs with Biblical History .. not sure whether this qualifies as "Religion" but matters not as is proven reality

My religion doesn't say anything about the origin of the Ishmaelites. The Bible says Ishmael was Abe's first born .. which .. if the setting stated in the Bible is correct Canaan - coincides with the genetic information .. as does the origins of Isaac and genetic info .. Some Jew say .. "I related to canaanite" descended from Isaac .. YOu can say .. well that makes sense .. as Isacc's offspring down many generations were Canaanites. .. the Israelites .. Canaanites .. Hebrew Language if you go back far enough is indistinguishable from Canaanite.

Same people .. same culture .. same religious beliefs .. as we have now found from finding thousands of Texts from Ugarit .. Canaanite Texts ... 90% yet untranslated .. but what we learned so fa .. tells us all about the Israeli religios beliefs and/or explains them .. on a Same Scat .. different pile basis of "Proven Reality"

 

[shunyadragon]

Sorry Friend .. you are talking the wrong period of time .. wrong Arabs. Arabs - by tradition - were descended from Ishmael .. round the time of Abe ~ 1800 BC .. which you then get around to saying later in your post.. completely contraditing your initial claim that Canaanites were not Arabs.

I did not claim that all Canaanites were Arabs .. what I said was both Arabs and Israelites were canaanites. and then .. went on to say that all Israelites are Arabs .. via intermarriage with the seed of Ishmail and all the other canaanites around them .. for hundreds of years.. . then out of this hodge podge some of these tribal nomads ended up hooking up with other Semetic tribes for battle against Egypt .. winning that bettle .. and ruling for ~ 100 years when Egyptians took over .. and made life rough for some of the Semetic Nomads .. who .. as all peoples in Canaan were ripe targets for the Slave Trade .. many of these peoples regularly enslaved as a matter of commerce.

Hundreds of years later .. we have some migrations of these Nomads and former nomads out of Egypt and back into Canaan .. round the time of the Bronze age Collapse . which wiped out all competition in the region .. the various nomadics having a hay day .. most of the city states up for grabs .. a dark age time of anarchy.... When some group of Canaanite nomadic Tribes closely related to the Midianites .. who gave Moses his God .. grouped together into a coalition and started taking land.

All the peoples Joshua was fighting were their brother Cannanites .. Elamites - Moabites - Amalekites - and so on .. no distinction between arab and Canaanite and Israelite .. all the same Ethnic Group of people ..

You can't distinguish a Jew from an Arab on the basis of the Abraham Story .. both one in the same -- full stop .. as you end up claiming.

Yes, the Canaanites, Hebrews and Arabs are descendents Semitic tribes and related with, Eastern Middle East, African, Egyptian and Phoenician in the mix, but I seriously question the Abraham story as the explanation of the separation of Hebrews from Arabs, Though the Hebrews were definitely a Canaanite tribe that evolved in the Hills of Judah with a version of Canaanite religion and language to a Kingdom about 800-600 BCE. The Hebrews than took Canaanite writing and developed their own writing and cultural identity in the compilation of the Pentateuch and became Monotheistic.

Ancient Semitic-speaking peoples - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ancient Semitic-speaking peoples or Proto-Semitic people were speakers of Semitic languages who lived throughout the ancient Near East and North Africa, including the Levant, Mesopotamia, the Arabian Peninsula and Carthage from the 3rd millennium BC until the end of antiquity, with some, such as Arabs, Arameans, Assyrians, Jews, Mandaeans, and Samaritans having a continuum into the present day.

Their languages are usually divided into three branches: East, Central and South Semitic languages. The Proto-Semitic language was likely first spoken in the early 4th millennium BC in Western Asia, and the oldest attested forms of Semitic date to the early to mid-3rd millennium BC (the Early Bronze Age).

Speakers of East Semitic include the people of the Akkadian Empire, Ebla, Assyria, Babylonia, the latter two of which eventually switched to East Aramaic and perhaps Dilmun. Central Semitic combines the Northwest Semitic languages and Arabic. Speakers of Northwest Semitic were the Canaanites (including the Phoenicians, Punics, Amorites, Edomites, Moabites and the Hebrews), Arameans and the Ugarites. South Semitic peoples include the speakers of Modern South Arabian languages and Ethiopian Semitic languages.