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Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??

The problem and main reason why JW's will die in their sins is because they reject the bodily resurrection of Yeshua.
This is what they teach: Christ was not raised in flesh, but with a spiritual body (MS, p. 426)
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
The biblical hell is the grave, nothing more.
I think you may be in for one "hell" of a surprise!

A place of weeping and gnashing of teeth - And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).

A place of outer darkness - "Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 22:13).

A place of torments -"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (Luke 16:23).

A place of Sorrows - "The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;" (2 Samuel 22:6).

A place of everlasting destruction - "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" (II Thessalonians 1:9).

A place where men are tormented with fire and brimstone - "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8).

A place where fire is not quenched -"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44).

A bottomless pit - "And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit" (Revelation 9:2).

A place of no rest - "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name" (Revelation 14:11).

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death" (Revelation 20:14).
 

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
Do you even believe Jesus is the Son of God?
Certainly I do.

I am a Christian and so was most of my family as far back as I am able to trace. That is not to say that in my family line all were faithful. And those that turned against the faith made trouble for those who remained faithful.

It is the same old thing over and over again. Like Solomon said, "There is nothing new under the sun."

People are people.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
Isa 9:6 (ESVST) 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


Isa 10:21 (ESVST) 21 A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God.

Deu 10:17 (ESVST) 17 For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe.

Neh 9:32 (ESVST) 32 "Now, therefore, our God, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love.

Jer 32:18 (ESVST) 18 You show steadfast love to thousands, but you repay the guilt of fathers to their children after them, O great and mighty God, whose name is the Lord of hosts.


Isa 63:16 (ESVST) 16 For you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, O Lord, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name.

Jn 14:18 (ESVST) 18 "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
Certainly I do.

I am a Christian and so was most of my family as far back as I am able to trace. That is not to say that in my family line all were faithful. And those that turned against the faith made trouble for those who remained faithful.

It is the same old thing over and over again. Like Solomon said, "There is nothing new under the sun."

People are people.
Thank you for sharing. When you said, "we Jews," I wasn't sure if you believed in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, or not. Some Jews do. Some do not.
 

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
there is nothing selfish about accepting the fact that we are born with sinful tendencies. This is the same problem that the jews of Jesus day, they failed to appreciate that they were sinners and in need of a savior.

Recognizing the sin within us makes the sacrifice of Christ more meaningful. We 'need' it. We need a new father. We need to be redeemed from the condemnation brought upon us by sin.

And if you dont recognise that, then what was Jesus sacrifice even for?

You speak half way correctly, "We need to be redeemed from the condemnation brought upon us by sin. ."

Romans 5:12 gave you the mechanics the same as did James, but you fail to add the two together.

Romans 5:12 tells us sin entered into the world (not the body of man but into the world) and death came through sin. And why? Because all then had sinned.

Now, you know that but you turn it into something mysterious, like a passing by genetics. But sin entering into the world meant that the world's knowledge missed the mark of the perfection of God's knowledge.

What choice then was there for man? Man is only as good as his knowledge and the wisdom that knowledge is able to impart to him.

Now read James again and put two and two together.

There is no need for you to be adding all these extra-Biblical thoughts and by doing so you are only succeeding to empower your own wisdom to mislead you.
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
You speak half way correctly, "We need to be redeemed from the condemnation brought upon us by sin. ."

Romans 5:12 gave you the mechanics the same as did James, but you fail to add the two together.

Romans 5:12 tells us sin entered into the world (not the body of man but into the world) and death came through sin. And why? Because all then had sinned.

Now, you know that but you turn it into something mysterious, like a passing by genetics. But sin entering into the world meant that the world's knowledge missed the mark of the perfection of God's knowledge.

What choice then was there for man? Man is only as good as his knowledge and the wisdom that knowledge is able to impart to him.

Now read James again and put two and two together.

There is no need for you to be adding all these extra-Biblical thoughts and by doing so you are only succeeding to empower your own wisdom to mislead you.
Very well stated!
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
The problem and main reason why JW's will die in their sins is because they reject the bodily resurrection of Yeshua.
This is what they teach: Christ was not raised in flesh, but with a spiritual body (MS, p. 426)

What the Jehovah's Witnesses miss is that after His resurrection Jesus said, "Touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." (Luke 24:39).

Job 19:26
"Though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God whom I shall see for myself and not another though my reins be consumed within me."
 

JFish123

Active Member

That's what they do because they have such a control of the minds of their people. They don't have to worry about them doing any research on what they teach. As in their doctrine of the "CROSS"




*** rs p. 89 par. 1 Cross ***
(Reasoning from the scripture)
The Greek word rendered “cross” in many modern Bible versions (“torture stake” in NW) is stau·rosʹ. In classical Greek, this word meant merely an upright stake, or pale. Later it also came to be used for an execution stake having a crosspiece. The Imperial Bible-Dictionary acknowledges this, saying: “The Greek word for cross, [stau·rosʹ], properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling [fencing in] a piece of ground. . . . Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole.”—Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874), Vol. I, p. 376.



CROSS, CRUCIFY. The Greek word for cross, stau-ros, properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling a piece of ground.... (then you have their famous "...." four dot ellipsis which replaces) But a modification was introduced as the dominion and usages of Rome extended themselves through Greek-speaking
countries. (then they give a little more to prove their doctrine) Even amongst the Romans the crux (from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole, (and then they leave out) and this always remained the more prominent part. But from the time that it began to be used as an instrument of punishment, a transverse piece of wood was commonly added: not. however, always even then. For it would seem that there were more kinds of death than one by the cross; this being sometimes accomplished by transfixing the criminal with a pole, which was run through his back and spine, and came out at his mouth (adactum per medium hominem, (|ui per os emergat, stipitem. Seneca, Ep. xiv.) In another place (Consol. ad Marciam, xx.\ Seneca mentions three different forms: "I see"; says he, "three crosses, not indeed of one sort, but fashioned in different ways; one sort suspending by the head persons bent toward the earth, others transfixing them through their secret parts, others extending their arms on a patibulum". There can be no doubt, however, that the latter sort was the more common, and that about the period of the gospel age crucifixion was usually accomplished by suspending the criminal on a cross piece of wood. The Imperial Bible-Dictionary Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874), Vol. I, p. 376. (emphasis mine)



I guess this applies to JW's also! When are you people going to open your eyes? You can download a .pdf copy of the Imperial Bible-Dictionary, read it for yourself!

*** it-2 p. 245 Lie ***
While malicious lying is definitely condemned in the Bible, this does not mean that a person is under obligation to divulge truthful information to people who are not entitled to it.







Jesus was crucified on a cross.
1. Stauros can mean multiple things like a "T" an "X" along with the rare upright stake.
2. It says Jesus had nails (more than one) in his hands. If it only was a stake, they would have used only one.
3. It's said his arms were "outstretched" meaning stretched outward which shows his arms were not above him as on a stake.
4. A sign was placed "above his head" which wouldn't happen on a stake. It would have been above his hands. So he was crucified on a cross. That's what the bible and history says.
 

Wharton

Active Member
1. I am not nor have ever been a protestant.

2. Prior to 1970, catholics were not given the wine at communion.

There are some RC churches that do offer it now.

That is a MAJOR CHANGE in doctrine!

Jesus commanded we do this in His memory. The RC heirarchy to it upon themselves to ignore Jesus' command by holding back the wine from the people for centuries.

Please spare me the ridiculous explanation of how the bread is representative of both elements. I've heard the claim before, and it's lame.
Actually, no. The bread is not representative of both elements or there wouldn't be two elements. That is not a change in doctrine. Discipline, maybe. Doctrine, no.

Jesus commanded that the apostles/bishops do it in memory of him, not you or me-no laity present at the Last Supper. They lead, we follow. And the bishops/priests do as commanded by Jesus. The bishop or priest MUST receive under both species at Mass. The laity is not required to do so. It is a method used for those who can't swallow a host due to a physical problem, glucose intolerance, etc.

How about this for you to ponder: The communion line is really long for the host and no one is at the wine station. I can just receive the wine at Mass and not the host. There you go. You don't get more Jesus by receiving both as He is present in both.
 

Wharton

Active Member
Because people have to choose Jesus. Those who don't end up in hell. If works are in involved that means Jesus death on the cross was meaningless. Faith plus works is unbiblical to the Nth degree. And I don't think they had birth control pills hundreds if years ago so how could they?
Nope. Don't think you're getting a free pass to heaven based on faith alone. If that were true, there would be no judgment necessary when you die. But there is.

Ask any Christian pastor how you will be judged.

You have to participate in some degree in the Truth (Jesus)
You have to had the opportunity to hear the Truth (Jesus/Gospel)
And guess what. Failing that. The third criteria is works.
 

Wharton

Active Member
Jesus was crucified on a cross.
1. Stauros can mean multiple things like a "T" an "X" along with the rare upright stake.
2. It says Jesus had nails (more than one) in his hands. If it only was a stake, they would have used only one.
3. It's said his arms were "outstretched" meaning stretched outward which shows his arms were not above him as on a stake.
4. A sign was placed "above his head" which wouldn't happen on a stake. It would have been above his hands. So he was crucified on a cross. That's what the bible and history says.
Yep. And there's a cross on CT Russell's pyramid tombstone.
 

Wharton

Active Member
The problem and main reason why JW's will die in their sins is because they reject the bodily resurrection of Yeshua.
This is what they teach: Christ was not raised in flesh, but with a spiritual body (MS, p. 426)
They don't have a proper sacrifice. They have unacceptable sacrificial matter (a human) + unacceptable form (the sacrificial body went poof before being presented to the Father) = unacceptable sacrifice. Which is why Jesus told Mary Magdalene not to hold onto him because he had not yet ascended to the Father to present the sacrificial body.
 

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
You speak half way correctly, "We need to be redeemed from the condemnation brought upon us by sin. ."

Romans 5:12 gave you the mechanics the same as did James, but you fail to add the two together.

Romans 5:12 tells us sin entered into the world (not the body of man but into the world) and death came through sin. And why? Because all then had sinned.

Now, you know that but you turn it into something mysterious, like a passing by genetics. But sin entering into the world meant that the world's knowledge missed the mark of the perfection of God's knowledge.

What choice then was there for man? Man is only as good as his knowledge and the wisdom that knowledge is able to impart to him.

Now read James again and put two and two together.

There is no need for you to be adding all these extra-Biblical thoughts and by doing so you are only succeeding to empower your own wisdom to mislead you.
I should have added in connection with this, when we read the words of James (James 1:13-18) we should keep it close in mind something Peter told us about why we are drawn out and enticed by such lusts:

1 Peter 1:14 "As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:" We are what we learn and practice. In our ignorance we saw things as good which were in reality bad.

Almost everyone should be able to relate to that, for I dare say we all know people who we see clearly love to do bad but do not believe it is bad. Conversely, there are people who love to do good, but due to ignorance end up doing evil. Matthew 7:19-23

Many of us see people who work very hard at preaching God's Word to others and who are very true to staying as close to their church as possible. And yet we can see that many of these seem to be caught up in the idea that their good works are what will save them.

Well, perhaps those works could save them if they really were good works. That is the key. In our short-sightedness by the ignorance in us, we often lack the ability to see clearly what we are working. Paul believed he was faithfully serving God when he was busy putting Christians to death. And so when we are told that it is not our works which save us we ought to think of Paul, for he was once himself just as those he described here, as follows:

Romans 10:2-3 "For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Let me give you a bit of background about those verses and the thoughts which are expressed in the next couple of verses after them:

The Israelite peoples were basically clamoring that it was impossible to please God, claiming they had no real way to know what he desired of them. (An any old excuse will do, kind of a situation.)

Deuteronomy 29:26-29 provides important background information for what God spoke to Israel through his prophet to tell them, at Deuteronomy 30:1-20. And Paul's words at Romans 10:4-10 are drawn from his knowledge of Deuteronomy chapter 30.

The point is that Jesus is to us just as that written word was in the hand of men under that Old Law Covenant. But even better because Jesus was not just a book which laid there awaiting our interpretation of it before we could apply it. Jesus was the living, breathing, walking demonstration of that Word, leaving us with no excuse to fail to understand that Word. Indeed, if we failed to grasp that Word now that God sent his righteousness into our lives to model it to us, then we truly do merely love darkness rather than light. (Added: Compare the thoughts of Jesus, as follows: John 10:37 "If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not." ; John 14:11 "Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake." The point being that Jesus was enduring death for us in order to become to us the living, breathing, Word of God to us, the model of the perfect image we are all supposed to aspire to.)

These things are tied harmoniously together by the one common thread, and that is that it is the Word, (the knowledge) of God which saves us. That is why:
Ephesians 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

And that is supported by the entire scripture: Colossians 3:10 "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him.."
 
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katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
Actually, no. The bread is not representative of both elements or there wouldn't be two elements. That is not a change in doctrine. Discipline, maybe. Doctrine, no.

Jesus commanded that the apostles/bishops do it in memory of him, not you or me-no laity present at the Last Supper. They lead, we follow. And the bishops/priests do as commanded by Jesus. The bishop or priest MUST receive under both species at Mass. The laity is not required to do so. It is a method used for those who can't swallow a host due to a physical problem, glucose intolerance, etc.

How about this for you to ponder: The communion line is really long for the host and no one is at the wine station. I can just receive the wine at Mass and not the host. There you go. You don't get more Jesus by receiving both as He is present in both.
Maybe you didn't notice, but this thread is not about Roman catholicism. It's about whether Watchtower's Governing Body is God's exclusive channel.

Your input on the thread topic would be greatly appreciated. We can debate Roman catholicism in another thread, if you'd like.
 
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katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
I should have added in connection with this, when we read the words of James (James 1:13-18) we should keep it close in mind something Peter told us about why we are drawn out and enticed by such lusts:

1 Peter 1:14 "As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:" We are what we learn and practice. In our ignorance we saw things as good which were in reality bad.

Almost everyone should be able to relate to that, for I dare say we all know people who we see clearly love to do bad but do not believe it is bad. Conversely, there are people who love to do good, but due to ignorance end up doing evil. Matthew 7:19-23

Many of us see people who work very hard at preaching God's Word to others and who are very true to staying as close to their church as possible. And yet we can see that many of these seem to be caught up in the idea that their good works are what will save them.

Well, perhaps those works could save them if they really were good works. That is the key. In our short-sightedness by the ignorance in us, we often lack the ability to see clearly what we are working. Paul believed he was faithfully serving God when he was busy putting Christians to death. And so when we are told that it is not our works which save us we ought to think of Paul, for he was once himself just as those he described here, as follows:

Romans 10:2-3 "For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Let me give you a bit of background about those verses and the thoughts which are expressed in the next couple of verses after them:

The Israelite peoples were basically clamoring that it was impossible to please God, claiming they had no real way to know what he desired of them. (An any old excuse will do, kind of a situation.)

Deuteronomy 29:26-29 provides important background information for what God spoke to Israel through his prophet to tell them, at Deuteronomy 30:1-20. And Paul's words at Romans 10:4-10 are drawn from his knowledge of Deuteronomy chapter 30.

The point is that Jesus is to us just as that written word was in the hand of men under that Old Law Covenant. But even better because Jesus was not just a book which laid there awaiting our interpretation of it before we could apply it. Jesus was the living, breathing, walking demonstration of that Word, leaving us with no excuse to fail to understand that Word. Indeed, if we failed to grasp that Word now that God sent his righteousness into our lives to model it to us, then we truly do merely love darkness rather than light.

These things are tied harmoniously together by the one common thread, and that is that it is the Word, (the knowledge) of God which saves us. That is why:
Ephesians 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

And that is supported by the entire scripture: Colossians 3:10 "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him.."
What is your understanding of the Greek term "logos?" I know the immediate translation is WORD. But I have researched the term, and logos seems to have a deeper, broader meaning. What say you?
 

JFish123

Active Member
Nope. Don't think you're getting a free pass to heaven based on faith alone. If that were true, there would be no judgment necessary when you die. But there is.

Ask any Christian pastor how you will be judged.

You have to participate in some degree in the Truth (Jesus)
You have to had the opportunity to hear the Truth (Jesus/Gospel)
And guess what. Failing that. The third criteria is works.

Saved by grace
(Ephesians 2:8-9) - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."
(Rom. 3:20, 28) - "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin...For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."
(Galatians 2:16) - "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Saved by works
(James 2:24) - "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."
(Matthew 19:16-17) - "And behold, one came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" 17And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
God does not want a faith that is empty and hypocritical. James 2 is talking about those who "say" that they have faith but have no works. Therefore, people cannot tell if they are true believers or not, because there is no fruit. That kind of a faith is useless and is not a saving faith. True faith results in true works.

In Matthew 19:16-17, Jesus was speaking to a Lawyer who was self-righteous since he wanted to put Jesus to the test (Luke 10:25). He asked what he must do in order to obtain eternal life and Jesus responded with the requirements of keeping the commandments. If a person keeps all of the commandments, it would seem that they could obtain eternal life. However, nobody can keep all of the commandments. Therefore, Jesus' comments to this man show this man that justification can only be by faith since no one can keep all of the commandments. This is why it says in Eph. 2:8 that we are saved by grace through faith. Also, Romans 3:20,28 and Galatians 2:16 tells us that no one is justified in the sight of God by the law; that is, by the works that he can do.

There is no contradiction at all when we examine the contexts. We are justified by faith but that faith must be alive (James 2). The Law cannot save us because we are incapable of keeping it (Matthew 19:16-17). Therefore, salvation is by grace through faith.
 
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