Catholic teaching doesn't change.
Protestant and JW teaching change. Here's a question for you: prior to 1933 not one Protestant denomination believed in birth control. What changed in scripture to allow it? Who allowed the change?
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Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??
- Thread starter katiemygirl
- Start date
Protestant and JW teaching change. Here's a question for you: prior to 1933 not one Protestant denomination believed in birth control. What changed in scripture to allow it? Who allowed the change?
Catholic teaching doesn't change...unless the Pope says so
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
They won't answer, and for this reason.
*** it-2 p. 245 Lie ***
While malicious lying is definitely condemned in the Bible, this does not mean that a person is under obligation to divulge truthful information to people who are not entitled to it.
Some how they are given the right or ability or power to make that judgment.
Not likely. Even the most morally corrupt popes have NEVER changed Catholic teaching/doctrine.Catholic teaching doesn't change...unless the Pope says so
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
there is nothing selfish about accepting the fact that we are born with sinful tendencies. This is the same problem that the jews of Jesus day, they failed to appreciate that they were sinners and in need of a savior.
Recognizing the sin within us makes the sacrifice of Christ more meaningful. We 'need' it. We need a new father. We need to be redeemed from the condemnation brought upon us by sin.
And if you dont recognise that, then what was Jesus sacrifice even for?
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
if that were true, why did Jesus make this statement:
“Everyone that keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” Matthew 5:28
And why were Adam and Eve's children kept out of the Garden of Eden? If they were not separated from God as their parents were, why were they refused entry???
Well two off the top of my head are the infallibility of the pope that popes didn't have for a millennium before and the selling of indulgences.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Im not branding it as anything. Im not saying babies do commit sin either. I dont believe that.... and i know that are not held accountable until they are of an age where they are making conscious decisions. So why you are honing in on babies, i dont know???
All i know is that the bible says we are 'conceived in sin' which means our parents are sinners and we are born sinners too.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
no, it was actually the opposite. The early christians showed by their writings (including so-called church fathers) that they believed Jesus and Jehovah were two separate beings.
New Catholic Encyclopedia says: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”
The Encyclopedia Americana says: “Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”
thats not quite true.
NE : “what God was, the Word was.”
Mo : “the Logos was divine.”
AT and Sd : “the Word was divine.”
The interlinear rendering of ED : “a god was the Word.”
NWT & NTIV : “the Word was a god”
“and the word was a god” 1808 The New Testament, in An Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text, London.
“and a god was the Word” 1864 The Emphatic Diaglott (J21, interlinear reading), by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London.
“and the Word was divine” 1935 The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed, Chicago.
“and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word” 1975 Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany.
“and godlike sort was the Logos" 1978 Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin.
“and a god was the Logos” 1979 Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Jürgen Becker, Würzburg, Germany.
There are many translators who do not agree that the verse should be read the way trinitarians want it to be read.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
I would like to ask you why a sin offering was required in connection with childbirth?
Leviticus 12:12 Jehovah went on to say to Moses: 2 “Tell the Israelites, ‘If a woman becomes pregnant and gives birth to a male, she will be unclean for seven days, just as she is in the days of the impurity when she is menstruating. 3 On the eighth day, the flesh of his foreskin will be circumcised. 4 She will continue cleansing herself from the blood for the next 33 days. She should not touch any holy thing, and she should not come into the holy place until she fulfills the days of her purification.
5 “‘If she should give birth to a female, she will then be unclean for 14 days, just as she would be during her menstruation. She will continue cleansing herself from the blood for the next 66 days. 6 When the days of her purification for a son or a daughter are completed, she will bring a young ram in its first year for a burnt offering and a young pigeon or a turtledove for a sin offering to the entrance of the tent of meeting, to the priest. 7 He will present it before Jehovah and make atonement for her, and she will be clean from her flow of blood. This is the law about the woman who gives birth to either a male or a female.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Expressions which link together the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit occurred very early in the History of the Christian Church. These are sometimes taken as expressions about the Trinity. The bible I've shown states a Trinity, as All persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) have not only the attributes of God throughout scripture but they all do the works of God and are Even Called God in scripture. And yes the early church also believed in a Trinity.
150 AD Justin Martyr: "The Father of the universe has a Son, who also being the first begotten Word of God, is even God." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 63)
150 AD Justin Martyr "Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts." (Dialogue with Trypho, ch, 36)
150 AD Justin Martyr quotes Hebrews 1:8 to prove the Deity of Christ. "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever." (Dialogue with Trypho, ch 56)
150 AD Justin Martyr "Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Christ] is witnessed to by Him who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ." - Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 63.
150 AD Polycarp of Smyrna
150 AD Polycarp of Smyrna "I praise you for all things, I bless you, I glorify you, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, with whom, to you and the Holy Spirit, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 14).
All three have been given the same Glory.
160 AD Mathetes
160 AD Mathetes "[The Father] sent the Word that he might be manifested to the world . . . This is he who was from the beginning, who appeared as if new, and was found old . . . This is he who, being from everlasting, is today called the Son" (Letter to Diognetus 11).
Jesus as from "everlasting" means He always existed.
170 AD Tatian the Syrian
170 AD Tatian the Syrian "We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21).
180 AD Irenaeus "Christ Jesus is our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King." (Against Heresies, Book I, ch. 10, section 1)
All these men and church fathers if you will were about 1,700 years before the Watchtower.
There is only one infallible statement that's been issued by a pope. That's the only time it has been used. BTW, you might like St. Augustine's statement in the 5th century: "Rome has spoken. The case is closed."
The 'selling' of indulgences was never a doctrine of the Church. It was an abuse utilized by uneducated men that entered the priesthood after the plague killed off most of the educated priests and the people in Europe. It was condemned by the pope in 1567. As I stated in my earlier post, not even the most morally corrupt pope changed doctrine/dogma.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
All of these men lived after the restraint was removed by the death of the last apostle.
"Let no one lead you astray (or "seduce you.") in any way, because it [that is the day of Jehovah] will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction....And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way." - 2 Thessalonians 2:3,6,7
Seriously? They used modern punctuation in the year 150 C.E/A.D so that we know it is "thy throne, O God" and not "God is your throne"?
Once again more JW bs leaving out what was said in the Catholic Encyclopedia to support their doctrine. Kind of like the need to write the NWT to support their doctrine.
Let's see what was really said to correct the JW deception:
"Question of Continuity and Elemental Trinitarianism: From what has been seen thus far, the impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. In a sense, this is true; but it implies an extremely strict interpretation of the key words Trinitarian and dogma. Triadic Consciousness in the Primitive Revelation. The formulation "one God in three Persons" was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective; among the 2d-century Apologists, little more than a focusing of the problem as that of plurality within the unique Godhead. ... From the vocabulary and grammar of the Greek original, the intention of the hagiographer to communicate singleness of essence in three distinct Persons was easily derived. ... If it is clear on one side that the dogma of the Trinity in the stricter sense of the word was a late arrival, product of 3 centuries' reflection and debate, it is just as clear on the opposite side that confession of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit-and hence an elemental Trinitarianism-went back to the period of Christian origins. (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1965, Trinity, p299-300)
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
The Catholic Encyclopedia : “In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word τρίας [triʹas] (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180.
Vocabulaire biblique (1954, p. 72) : “No New Testament writings supply explicit assurance of a triune God.”
Ian Henderson, University of Glasgow - Encyclopedia International (1969):
“The doctrine of the Trinity did not form part of the apostles’ preaching, as this is reported in the New Testament.”—P. 226
London Observer reported on December 3, 1978:
“One of Britain’s leading Anglican theologians, the Rev. Dr Geoffrey Lampe, . . . has come out with a strong challenge to the historic Christian doctrine of the Trinity. . . . He said the Trinity doctrine—God consisting of three ‘Persons’—has ‘not much’ future.”
Berlin, Germany, Doctor of Theology J. Schneider:
“Jesus Christ does not usurp the place of God. His oneness with the Father does not mean absolute identity of being. Although the Son of God in his preexistent being was in the form of God, he resisted the temptation to be equal with God (Phil. 2:6). . . . Although completely co-ordinated with God, he remains subordinate to him.”—Theologisches Begriffslexikon zum Neuen Testament (1965), Vol. 2, p. 606.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIV, page 295.“It is difficult, in the second half of the 20th century, to offer a clear, objective, and straightforward account of the revelation, doctrinal evolution, and theological elaboration of the mystery of the Trinity. . . . One should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification. . . . When one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century.”
Apostles Creed apparently written in the 4th/5th century:
M’Clintock & Strong’s Cyclopædia, Volume 2, pages 559-563
“I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Ghost; born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.”
I'm not asking you to believe what the WT has to say on the subject.... but believe these sources instead. We dont make it up as we go along, we do pay attention to what the scholars have to say.
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
The WT quotes the scholars that support their doctrine. What about all the scholars that support the trinity doctrine?
CCC 1471, "The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance." And the infallibility of the pope is unbiblical regardless how many times it's used. The pope isn't God.
And the dogmas the Catholic Church have are unchristian. Praying and asking dead saints to pray for you? Belief in purgatory which is waaaay unbiblical as well as full salvation only comes through the Catholic Church instead of just Jesus. Just a few examples.
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So the scriptures that prove it mean nothing?