Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??

[JFish123]

I figured since there are different people on this thread I'd Post this here as well
THE TOP TEN
The Ultimate Answers to Prove Biblically that Jesus and Michael the Arc Angel are NOT the Same Person
EVIDENCE #1: Nowhere in the Scriptures does it explicitly state that Jesus is Michael the archangel.
EVIDENCE #2: The Scriptures contrast Jesus with angels specifically showcasing there differences.
"So he [the Son] has become better than the angels, to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs." (Hebrews 1:4)
"For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: "You are my son; I, today, I have become your father?" (Hebrews 1:5)
EVIDENCE #3: Michael is called "ONE OF the Chief Princes" (Daniel 10:13), which shows he is NOT unique as he is among equals (other Chief Princes). However, by contrast, The Greek word used to describe Jesus in John 3:16 ("For God so Loved the world that He gave his ONLY Son...") is monogenes-which Literally means "unique," "one of a kind." Jesus is NOT one among equals.
EVIDENCE #4: Again, Michael is called "one of the CHIEF PRINCES" (Daniel 10:13), Jesus however, is NEVER called Chief Prince in the scriptures, but instead called KING of KINGS and LORD of LORDS, which is far superior to a mere chief prince.
EVIDENCE #5: If no angel can rule the world (Hebrews 2:5) how can Jesus be an angel when He is to be RULER of Gods Kingdom (Genesis 49:10, 2 Samuel 7:16, Psalm 2:6, Daniel 7:13-14, Luke 1:32-33, Matthew 2:1-2; 9:35, Revelation 19:16)
EVIDENCE #6: If no angel can be called Gods Son (Hebrews 1:5), the very FACT that Jesus IS the SON of God makes Him not an angel.
EVIDENCE #7: The Scripture tells us that Jesus is "The same yesterday, today, and forever" (Hebrews 13:8), so He could not have been an angel, them a human, and then Recreated as an angel again.
EVIDENCE #8: When disputing the body of Moses with satan (Jude 9), Michael could NOT Rebuke him in his own authority, while by contrast, Jesus could and DID Rebuke satan In His own authority. And if Jesus, as Jehovahs Witnesses claim was given the power and authority to create everything, which means He created and had authority over the angels, including satan, but he still could not rebuke satan, means there is a huge hole in the Jehovahs Witnesses theory.
EVIDENCE #9: In Jude 9, Michael said to satan, "The LORD rebuke you." The Greek word for Lord is Kurios. It is the standard word for "Lord" in the New Testament. It is a direct parellel to YHWY or Jehovah in the Old Testament. And while Jesus is called Lord (Kurios) many times in the New Testament, Michael the angel is NEVER called Kurios.
EVIDENCE #10: Jesus has flesh and bone while Michael is a Spirit without flesh and bone. Jesus was Resurrected in a BODY which He still has.
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." They replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" But the temple he had spoken of was HIS BODY." (John 2:19-21)
"... He was not abandoned to Hades, nor His flesh see corruption" (Acts 2:31). Why didn't His flesh "see corruption?" Because He was raised in a material, fleshly body.

CRITICS: The first scripture a critic will point to is 1 Thessalonians 4:16:
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first."
There are several things wrong with this theory.
EVIDENCE #1: it ignores All the Evidence Above
EVIDENCE #2: Nowhere in this Scripture verse does it say Jesus is Michael.
EVIDENCE #3: When the Scripture says THE archangel, it doesn't say there's only one. It is one of identification as a well-known archangel instead of a limitation as the ONLY archangel. As Michael is described as ONE OF the Chief Princes (Daniel 10:13). Much like if there were 5 policemen, and you wanted to show which one saved your life, you'd say, "THE police officer Michael," identifying by their name, which one of the same rank (policemen/chief princes) saved you.
Evidence #4: If reference to an archangels voice makes Jesus an angel, by the very same logic, Jesus having Gods Trumpet makes Him God.
The Debate is Over. Thank You

 

[Pegg]

I would know he was an impostor. I would vote for the person who best represented my beliefs.

Please address my last post to you.

That wasnt a trick question.

Let me put it to you another way... if you had a choice to vote for Jesus (the real Jesus), would you?

 

[Pegg]

1. Based on the scriptures, Christ was clearly a hybrid being. He felt and looked like a human being:

Luke 24:38-39 "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."​

Yet was able to appear out of nowhere, a characteristic exclusive to a spirit being:

Luke 24:36 36 As they were talking about these things, Jesus "himself" stood among them, and said to them, " Peace to you!"
​

Making your premise about the hybrid beings in Noah's day rather moot.

That was only after he died as a man and was raised as a spirit. Spirits have the ability to materialise into human form... but Jesus was not part spirit when he was born. He was 'fully human' for he had to correspond to the first man Adam who was also fully human.

2. I believe scripture does indicate the New Jerusalem will have physical streets:

Rev 21:21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass. ​

When reading through the detailed descriptions of the city in Rev 21, there is plenty of evidence indicating this will be every bit of a physical city placed on a new heaven and earth. It contains gates, walls, streets, precious stones. We really don't know what the composition of the New earth will be.

There is a hint that it will not have an atmosphere, hence the "new heaven", as the oceans will no longer exist (Rev 21:1). An environment fit exclusively for flesh and bone hybrid, spirit beings.

Not sure if it will have a Starbucks. If it does, that would most certainly be heaven on earth.

​

Thats gotta be a mighty big pearl if its going to be a gate to a city.

But tell me, what do you think of Vs 22 in that passage??

 

[katiemygirl]

That wasnt a trick question.

Let me put it to you another way... if you had a choice to vote for Jesus (the real Jesus), would you?

Pegg,

I put a lot of time into my post to you about your "kingdom covenant." I would like an answer please.

Here it is.

Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God?? | Page 193 | ReligiousForums.com

 

[Pegg]

Okay, Pegg... I'm going to respond to this post for one reason only -- because I like you personally. Otherwise, I would just ignore the post. Quite honestly, it's getting more and more to where I just can't even bring myself to discuss religion with Jehovah's Witnesses. I am convinced that this particular conversation would continue until at least 2020 if it were up to the JWs. At some point, I simply lose interest in having a circular conversation, and that time is quickly approaching.

I completely understand, we do come from a very different mindset and that can be frustrating at times. So I thankyou for your patience

You say you advocate for God's Government, and you asked me to consider how it would be if everyone lived by His laws. It would be great! It would be phenomenal! And someday, when everybody is on the same page, that will be possible. Meanwhile, when we have people who don't even believe in God, at least not in God as the JWs conceive of Him, we simply must have an "interim government," so to speak. You essentially do advocate for no government other than God's. You may submit to God's Government, but you submit to man's government, too, to the degree you feel you must. JayJayDee already pointed out that you pay your taxes. Why? Tax laws aren't passed by God's Government? You can love your neighbor as yourself without paying taxes. Or maybe it's that you don't want to end up serving a prison term. In that case, what statement are you really making? I would imagine that you feel compelled to obey traffic laws. They have been established to keep you safe on the roads. God had nothing to do with enacting them. There are laws that protect your property, laws that protect your health, the air you breathe, the water you drink. You know that if your country is attacked by its enemies, there will be people authorized by your government to protect you and your family. You're willing to accept all of the benefits your government provides, but you refuse to contribute to its success in any way that you don't absolutely have to (again, I'm thinking of taxes). You're proud that you don't vote, but I'm sure you hope the rest of us vote for people who will be honest and intelligent in making decisions that protect your freedoms and your way of life. If everybody in the world refused to get involved in the political process, absolute chaos would be the result.

Just once in my life, I would love to hear a JW acknowledge this fact, instead of sitting back and making the rest of us -- the ones who do get involved -- out to be anti-God. That is all I have to say on this subject. Period.

As christians it would be wrong of us not to show due respect to the governments... the scriptures even say they are permitted to rule by God himself

Romans 13:1 Let every person* be in subjection to the superior authorities,+ for there is no authority except by God;+ the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.+ 2 Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves. 3 For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad.+ Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good,+ and you will have praise from it;
​

But when you say 'contribute to its success' We have to really consider that. I mean, have you ever prayed for Gods Kingdom to come as per Jesus prayer:... "Our Father in heaven, let your...kingdom come, let your will take place..."
If we take that seriously and work in harmony with that prayer, who's kingdom or government should we be working to make successful? Isnt it Gods Kingdom?

There are many different political parties in a country. Some people vote for one side and work to advance that party and its policies. They don't try to advance the other parties because they've made a decision on which party they want to support.

We do exactly the same. We support the Kingdom of God and we actively work to promote and advance its policies. So when I say we are not anti-government, its true. We are active supporters of the only Government we believe can make a difference... and it is already making a huge difference in the lives of its members. And just on that point of war... we would never take up arms against our fellow man because our Gods government requires that we love our neighbor as our-self. That makes it absolutely unconscionable for us join the armed forces and we will gladly go to jail for that. I'll take a jail cell anyday over a gun...i'll never point a gun at my brother.

 

[katiemygirl]

KJW47

Would you please respond to my post. If you can't answer the questions, I understand.

Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God?? | Page 189 | ReligiousForums.com

 

[Pegg]

The "little flock" were Jesus' followers, who were JEWS. He said He was sent only to the lost SHEEP of Israel. (Mt. 15:24)
The "other sheep" were Gentiles. Jesus said in John 10:16,
"I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd."

Who are the SHEEP OF THIS PEN Jesus refers to Pegg? Are they not Jews?

Yes i agree, initially the 'little flock' were all Jews for the Jews were called first according to Gods Will and as stated at Romans 1:16 - 17 “I am not ashamed of the good news; it is, in fact, God’s power for salvation to everyone having faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”

Later, Gentiles became believers and received holy spirit too.... they received holy spirit even before being baptized (ie, Cornelius). This prompted the Apostles to review their ideas about the Mosaic law....they realized at that point that mosaic law was not a requirement in the worship Jehovah as it had been previously.

So you have the little flock who were initially his jewish disciples... but later they included gentiles.
And you still have a group called the 'other sheep who are not of this fold'

No one in ALL of Christendom believes there are two classes of Christians. This is Watchtower doctrine alone. Therefore, the burden of proof lies on the WTS and its followers to show, beyond the shadow of a doubt, using Scripture, and nothing but Scripture, to prove that their doctrine is true.

I wouldnt call them 'classes' of christians.
We are all 'one flock' as Jesus described it in John 10:16 '...they will become one flock, one shepherd"

1. How it looks to you and what it indicates to you boils down to your opinion. That doesn't make it fact.

John said he HEARD the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 sealed from every trible of the sons of Israel. John did not say he counted them.

2. Where does it say God wants mankind to inhabit the earth forever?

Yes, John heard the 'number of those sealed' ... but when he saw the Great Crowd, he said 'no man was able to number them'
Thats significant.

Scriptures speaking about the earth and its inhabitants:
Psalm 37:29 The righteous will possess the earth,+ And they will live forever on it

Matt 25:46 These will depart into everlasting cutting-off,*+ but the righteous ones into everlasting life.

2 Peter 3:10
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

Doesn't sound to me like God planned on having earth inhabited forever.

Psalm 104:5 He has established the earth on its foundations;+ It will not be moved from its place* forever and ever.

Isaiah 45:18 “This is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the true God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: ‘I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.’”

3. Those of us who are "in Christ" (christians, believers, those who have been born again, those who have been sealed, those who have the indwelling Holy Spirit, those who are saved) are ruling, reigning and judging in His kingdom right now, and at the final judgement, we will judge all men and angels because we are "in Christ." We are united with Him. We are one with Christ. See 1 Cor. 6:1-11.

Who are 'we'? Do you have somewhere that you meet together....is there somewhere I can go to find out more about your christian association and its beliefs??

Pegg, this is why so many condemn the NWT. It is deceitful in its translation tactics repeatedly.

When Jesus promised the kingdom to his faithful disciples, he did not use the word "covenant.

That the word "covenant" (διαθήκη, di·a·the′ke) does not appear at Luke 22:29 is acknowledged in the New World Translation Reference Bible (Rbi8). It omits the Scripture from the 33 places where the word covenant does appear in the Greek Scriptures. Please see what it says in the Appendix, page 1584. I will post more about this if need be.

Well no, he didnt use the word covenant because that is an english word and Jesus did not speak english.

M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopædia says that diathke can mean covenant or agreement and the KJV even sometimes translates the word as 'testament' (dont ask me why lol)
And the verse in Luke in the KJV says "I appoint you unto a kingdom"

If they are being appointed to the kingdom, its an agreement isnt it? Didn't they believe that he had given them positions in the coming kingdom? Why did they believe that? It was because Christ had made that agreement with them at the last supper. Agreement/Covenant/Appointment .... its all the same thing. We dont claim to have a literal word for word interlinear translation. There is nothing incorrect or 'deceitful' about using the word covenant. That is exactly what Jesus had made with his apostles.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Truth is truth, no matter where its found--every religion has some form of truths. If the Muslims teach that love is the best path are they wrong? No. If Buddists teach that Jesus was the son of God are they wrong--NO

Watchtower July 1879 R8 : page 3
"WHAT IS TRUTH?"
This question is one which every sincere Christian should ask and seek to answer. We should learn to love and value truth for its own sake; to respect and honor it by owning and acknowledging it wherever we find it and by whomsoever presented. A truth presented by Satan himself is just as true as a truth stated by God.


John 8:43-44 (ESVST) 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

 

[james2ko]

Is there a spiritual realm? Does anything happen there?

I said prove from scripture--not from a game of 20 questions-- His return will not be visible.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

yes--99% are doing this-2Cor 4:4

How many gospels are there?

2Co 4:4 (ESVST) 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

If the gospel of the kingdom was, or is more important than the gospel of Jesus, wouldn't this be the perfect place to make that distinction?

 

[savagewind]

I said prove from scripture--not from a game of 20 questions-- His return will not be visible.

Matthew 28:20 Matthew 18:20 The Acts of the Apostles 18:10

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Rev 1:7 (ESVST) 7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

Rev 1:7 (ESVST) 7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will not literally see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

Which is more accurate?

 

[savagewind]

Rev 1:7 (ESVST) 7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

Rev 1:7 (ESVST) 7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will not literally see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

Which is more accurate?

It might not say that every eye will see HIM. Prove the pronoun meant at the writing was "him", Please. Why do you believe the pronoun wasn't "it"? Every eye will see it (his coming.)

 

[savagewind]

Also, I think "eye" might not mean physical sight. I think the Greek word can also mean mental sight. Does anyone know?......Does anyone care?

Strong's Greek: 3788. ὀφθαλμός (ophthalmos) -- the eye

Matthew 5:29 Matthew 6:22

 

[james2ko]

That was only after he died as a man and was raised as a spirit. Spirits have the ability to materialise into human form... but Jesus was not part spirit when he was born. He was 'fully human' for he had to correspond to the first man Adam who was also fully human.

1. Of course it was after He died. What did you think I meant?

Thats gotta be a mighty big pearl if its going to be a gate to a city.

2. Yes it is. Fitting for a huge city. I'm hope I'm privileged to optomai it.

But tell me, what do you think of Vs 22 in that passage??

3. There will be no need for a physical temple in the physical "New "Jerusalem. It's called the "New" Jerusalem for a reason. So what is your point?

 

[james2ko]

Matthew 28:20 Matthew 18:20 The Acts of the Apostles 18:10

Anything else you'd like to add to that? Like an explanation of how these verses prove He will not come visibly.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

*** bh chap. 18 pp. 182-183 Baptism and Your Relationship With God *** "What Does the Bible "REALLY" Teach"


THE MEANING OF YOUR BAPTISM
23 Jesus said that his disciples would be baptized “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit.” (Matthew 28:19) This means that a baptism candidate recognizes the authority of Jehovah God and of Jesus Christ. (Psalm 83:18; Matthew 28:18) He also recognizes the function and activity of God’s holy spirit, or active force.—Galatians 5:22, 23; 2 Peter 1:21.

24 However, baptism is not a mere bath. It is a symbol of something very important. Going beneath the water symbolizes that you have died to your former life course. Being raised up out of the water indicates that you are now alive to do the will of God. Remember, too, that you have made a dedication to Jehovah God himself, not to a work, a cause, other humans, or an organization. Your dedication and baptism are the beginning of a very close friendship with God—an intimate relationship with him.—Psalm 25:14.


*** w85 6/1 p. 30 Subjecting Ourselves to Jehovah by Dedication ***
On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?

The second is:

Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?


Romans 6:1-4 (ESVST) 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

 

[savagewind]

Anything else you'd like to add to that? Like an explanation of how these verses prove He will not come visibly.

Can you see him? Are you not gathered for his name? He promised to be with us. Is he not with you? I can not see him but I know he is with me. Can he be with me and also come? I do not think so.

 

[savagewind]

Unless there are two of them.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

It might not say that every eye will see HIM. Prove the pronoun meant at the writing was "him", Please. Why do you believe the pronoun wasn't "it"? Every eye will see it (his coming.)

Rev 1:7 (ESVST) 7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

If it is saying, "every eye will see "it" (STRONG) g0846. αὐτός autos; it's the same word in all 3 instances.

Rev 1:7 (ESVST) 7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see "IT", even those who pierced "IT", and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of "IT". Even so. Amen.