Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??

[Pegg]

But There's no verse where Jesus limits the citizenship in heaven to 144,000.
1 John 5:1 - "EVERYONE who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. Doesn't everyone who believes include everyone and not just a select 144,000 people?
How do you reconcile the Watchtower teaching that there will be an "anointed Class" in heaven and the "other sheep" on earth when John 10:16 clearly says that ALL believers will be together in "one flock" under "one shepherd?"

Adam was born of God at his creation.... yet he was not in heaven. So I dont think being 'born of God' means being in heaven, do you?

Revelation 7;1 After this I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, so that no wind could blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrise,* having a seal of the living God; and he called with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed+ the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”+
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000,+ sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:+

What is interesting about this verse is that the ones who were sealed are said to be out of every tribe of the sons of Israel. Thats significant because the nation of Israel, Gods holy nation, numbered into the millions. Yet only 144,000 of them were sealed for life in heaven. What this shows is that the entire nation were all one holy nation, but only a small number of them were sealed. And the reason we know this 'sealing' has to do with entering heaven to rule with Christ is found in Revelation 14:Then I saw, and look! the Lamb+ standing on Mount Zion,+ and with him 144,000+ who have his name and the name of his Father+ written on their foreheads. 2 I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song+ before the throne and before the four living creatures+ and the elders,+ and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000,+ who have been bought from the earth. ...+These were bought+ from among mankind as firstfruits+ to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.+

How do we know that the Great Crowd and the 144,000 are different? The answer can be seen in Vs 3 'no one was able to master that song except the 144,000 who have been bought from the earth' If you think that the Great Crowd and 144,000 are one and the same or of the same stock, then Why can't the Great crowd mentioned in Rev 7:9 master the song being sung in heaven? Thats a significant question to ask and i'll leave it with you to ponder.

 

[Pegg]

Preaching is incumbent on ALL Christians, but the New Covenant isn't? The anointed get to sit in nice comfy offices and houses while "The Other Sheep" work their tails off preaching?

Our governing body members are door to door preachers just like all of us. No one is treated any differently just because they are anointed or a GB member. The GB and other anointed ones are the mainstays of our preaching work. They dont sit in offices all day doing nothing.

And then the anointed get to go to heaven but the other sheep stay on earth after doing all the preaching work? If the GB is so high and mighty, they should be out there preaching right along with you. The anointed of God will have more of an impact on people than non-anointed people would, don't you think?

You reallly have no idea about who the GB are and what they do , do you?

Thats a shame if you base your view on what you dont know.

 

[JFish123]

What does the Arch Angel mean to you? What do you understand it to be??

Basically Michael the arc Angel and Jesus are 2 different beings.
In Daniel 10:13 Michael is specifically called "one of the chief princes." If he's "one of" that means he's not unique, but of a group of "chief princes." Which proves that he is not unique.
By contrast the Greek word used to describe Jesus in John 3:16 (for God so loved the world that He gave His ONLY Son...) is monogenes-which literally means "unique", "one of a kind." Jesus is not one among equals. Jesus is never called "Chief Prince" in the Bible.
The fact is, Jesus is called "King of Kings and Lord of Lords" in revelation 19:16. And a King is much higher then a mere prince who is among equals.
Also, an angel can never be called Gods Son (Hebrews 1:5) and yet if Jesus is in fact the Son of God, how can He be an angel?
Furthermore, if no angel can rule the world (Hebrews 2:5) then Christ cannot be the arc angel Michael since scripture repeatedly says Christ is to be the ruler of Gods Kingdom (Psalm 2:6, Daniel 7:13-14, Luke 1:32-33, Matthew 2:1-2, 9:35, Revelation 19:16).
In Hebrews 13:8 we are told that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever." So how could he have been a spiritual angel, then just a man, then back to a recreated angel again?
Also, to not make this too long a post, in Jude 9, it is written, "But when the arc angel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgement but said, " The Lord rebuke you."
By contrast Jesus personally rebuked the devil On a number of different occasions (Matthew 4:10, 16:23, Mark 8:33). Since Michael could not rebuke the devil in his own authority and Jesus could (and did), Michael and Jesus cannot be the same person.
And if the Watchtower Society has this wrong which scripturally from Gods own Word they clearly do, how can they be trusted with the rest of what they say about being saved? Please look into it for your soul really is at stake.

 

[JFish123]

Adam was born of God at his creation.... yet he was not in heaven. So I dont think being 'born of God' means being in heaven, do you?

Revelation 7;1 After this I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, so that no wind could blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrise,* having a seal of the living God; and he called with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed+ the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”+
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000,+ sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:+

What is interesting about this verse is that the ones who were sealed are said to be out of every tribe of the sons of Israel. Thats significant because the nation of Israel, Gods holy nation, numbered into the millions. Yet only 144,000 of them were sealed for life in heaven. What this shows is that the entire nation were all one holy nation, but only a small number of them were sealed. And the reason we know this 'sealing' has to do with entering heaven to rule with Christ is found in Revelation 14:Then I saw, and look! the Lamb+ standing on Mount Zion,+ and with him 144,000+ who have his name and the name of his Father+ written on their foreheads. 2 I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song+ before the throne and before the four living creatures+ and the elders,+ and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000,+ who have been bought from the earth. ...+These were bought+ from among mankind as firstfruits+ to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.+

How do we know that the Great Crowd and the 144,000 are different? The answer can be seen in Vs 3 'no one was able to master that song except the 144,000 who have been bought from the earth' If you think that the Great Crowd and 144,000 are one and the same or of the same stock, then Why can't the Great crowd mentioned in Rev 7:9 master the song being sung in heaven? Thats a significant question to ask and i'll leave it with you to ponder.

First, I must point out, the Watchtowers interpretation of Revelation 7:4 and 14:1-3 switches interpretive methodology right in the middle of Revelation 7:4. What I mean by this is simply that they interpret the first half of the verse using a literal method of interpretation: "Them I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000..."
They conclude from this that the so called anointed class will have Precisely 144,000 people.
But then, the second half of the verse is not interpreted literally: "from all the tribes of Israel." In other words, the Watchtower Society days there are literally 144,000 people, but this refers not to the literal tribes of Israel but to the anointed class if Jehovahs Witnesses.
There's no justification for switching methods of interpretation from literal to figurative right in the middle of Revelation 7:4 unless you want it to say what YOU want it to say. See my point about the Watchtower? They do it all the time I'm afraid.
They've even said that women are a part of this group, when Revelation 14:4 states: "it is these who have not defiled themselves with women." And since the masculine pronouns are used of this group, it shows that they are all men.
Also, no where in Revelation does it say a great multitude is exempt from heaven. Revelation 7:9 clearly refers to this great multitude as "standing before the throne and I. Front if the lamb." And the Greek word for "before" (enopeon) in Revelation 7:9 is used a number of times in that book to speak to those who are in the physical presence of Gods Throne.
And third and most importantly, it is the clear testimony of Scripture that a heavenly destiny awaits ALL who believe in Jesus Christ, not just a select group of 144,000 anointed believers (Ephesians 2:19, Philippians 3:20, Colossians 3:1, Hebrews 3:1, 12:22, 2 Peter 1:10-11)
Drawing a dichotomy between those with a heavenly destiny and those with an earthly one has no warrant in scripture. ALL who believe in Christ are heirs of the heavenly Kingdom (Galatians 3:29, 4:28-31, Titus 3:7, James 2:5) the righteousness of God that leads to life in heaven is available "through faith in Jesus Christ fore ALL who believe (Romans 3:21). Jesus Promised, " if anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there He will be also (that is, heaven) (John 12:26). Jesus clearly affirmed that all believers will be together in "one flock" under "one shepherd" (John 10:16). There will not be two "folds" whee one is on earth and the other in heaven. scripture is clear; One Fold, One Shepherd.
I hope you take these truths to heart.

 

[JayJayDee]

along with the 144000, there is a 'Great Crowd' who also serve God before his throne.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000,+ sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel...'
Vs9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne,+ and to the Lamb.”

There is a little flock and a other sheep according to Jesus. The Other Sheep are 'not of this fold' So there is obviously a difference between these two groups. If you cannot see that then it must be because you refuse to see it.

What's the old saying Pegg? "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still" ?

Blinded minds will never see the truth. (2 Cor 4:3,4) It means nothing to them. Daniel said they would not have any insight....none detected. Seem as if it's a waste of time even trying....

 

[Pegg]

First, I must point out, the Watchtowers interpretation of Revelation 7:4 and 14:1-3 switches interpretive methodology right in the middle of Revelation 7:4. What I mean by this is simply that they interpret the first half of the verse using a literal method of interpretation: "Them I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000..."
They conclude from this that the so called anointed class will have Precisely 144,000 people.
But then, the second half of the verse is not interpreted literally: "from all the tribes of Israel." In other words, the Watchtower Society days there are literally 144,000 people, but this refers not to the literal tribes of Israel but to the anointed class if Jehovahs Witnesses.
There's no justification for switching methods of interpretation from literal to figurative right in the middle of Revelation 7:4 unless you want it to say what YOU want it to say. See my point about the Watchtower? They do it all the time I'm afraid.

"no one was able to master that song but the 144,000"

They've even said that women are a part of this group, when Revelation 14:4 states: "it is these who have not defiled themselves with women." And since the masculine pronouns are used of this group, it shows that they are all men.

Galatians 3:26 You are all, in fact, sons of God+ through your faith in Christ Jesus.+27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.+28 There is neither Jew nor Greek,+ there is neither slave nor freeman,+ there is neither male nor female,+ for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus

1Peter 3:7 You husbands, in the same way, continue dwelling with them according to knowledge.* Assign them honor+ as to a weaker vessel, the feminine one, since they are also heirs with you+ of the undeserved favor of life, in order for your prayers not to be hindered.

When the anointed receive their heavenly resurrection, they are no longer male nor female.

Also, no where in Revelation does it say a great multitude is exempt from heaven. Revelation 7:9 clearly refers to this great multitude as "standing before the throne and I. Front if the lamb." And the Greek word for "before" (enopeon) in Revelation 7:9 is used a number of times in that book to speak to those who are in the physical presence of Gods Throne.

I think we stand before Gods throne whereever we happen to be if we submit to his rulership. His throne is whereever we are because we submit to it.
For those who refuse to submit, whether they are on earth or in the spirit world, they are not standing before the throne because they do not submit to it.

Keep in mind that when speaking of a 'throne' in heaven, its not a literal throne. God does not sit on anything in heaven. His 'throne' is really symbolic of his 'authority' So you dont have to be in any particular place to submit to the authority of Gods rulership.

And third and most importantly, it is the clear testimony of Scripture that a heavenly destiny awaits ALL who believe in Jesus Christ, not just a select group of 144,000 anointed believers (Ephesians 2:19, Philippians 3:20, Colossians 3:1, Hebrews 3:1, 12:22, 2 Peter 1:10-11)
Drawing a dichotomy between those with a heavenly destiny and those with an earthly one has no warrant in scripture. ALL who believe in Christ are heirs of the heavenly Kingdom (Galatians 3:29, 4:28-31, Titus 3:7, James 2:5) the righteousness of God that leads to life in heaven is available "through faith in Jesus Christ fore ALL who believe (Romans 3:21). Jesus Promised, " if anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there He will be also (that is, heaven) (John 12:26). Jesus clearly affirmed that all believers will be together in "one flock" under "one shepherd" (John 10:16). There will not be two "folds" whee one is on earth and the other in heaven. scripture is clear; One Fold, One Shepherd.
I hope you take these truths to heart.

Its interesting when we compare the Hebrew scriptures with the Christian scriptures. The hebrew scriptures are very earth based. Mankind are said to be waiting in their graves for a resurrection, the dead will rise, the earth will become filled with peace and happiness and life will be everlasting and the throne of David in Jerusalem will be reestablished under the prince of peace. Everything is in physical terms.

Whereas the Christian scriptures are predominantly written for the anointed...for Christs 'brothers' who will inherit the heavens. They are promised a heavenly reward, immortal life, glorified bodies and they are promised a place in the heavenly kingdom, they are alive in the spirit, they are fighting a spiritual warfare...things are spoken of spiritually.

both scriptures are written for their distinct purpose. Hebrew scriptures are written for those with the earthly hope who will inherit a physical earthly future, and the Christian scriptures are written for those with the heavenly hope who will join Christ in heaven. You cannot fully understand Gods purpose with the Christian scriptures alone, and vice versa... and one thing i notice is that those who believe solely in the heavenly reward rarely use the hebrew scriptures.

Unless we fully comprehend both of these hopes, it is very hard to comprehend the bible as a whole. The WT are the only organised christian group who do understand both of these destinations and this is why they are able to sing that 'new song' of the kingdom. They are the 144,000 and their understanding of both hebrew and christian scriptures proves it for me.

 

[savagewind]

Lol! I am not, nor have ever been a Catholic.

What I mean is you carry the beliefs that were perpetrated by the apostasy after the apostles died and which became The Catholic Church. But I agree with you that the three are the same. The apostasy, the Catholic Church and the JWs are all of one kind.

 

[Pegg]

What's the old saying Pegg? "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still" ?

Blinded minds will never see the truth. (2 Cor 4:3,4) It means nothing to them. Daniel said they would not have any insight....none detected. Seem as if it's a waste of time even trying....

We can't underestimate the damage done by the false teachings of the churches either...there are centuries of deeply entrenched false teachings to be overturned.

 

[savagewind]

Galatians 6:3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing,+ he is deceiving himself. 4 But let each one examine his own actions,+ and then he will have cause for rejoicing in regard to himself alone, and not in comparison with the other person.+ 5 For each one will carry his own load.

Please listen to scripture which you believe in. YOUR GB actually believe they are mentioned in The Bible. It means they believe they are something.

You have eyes but you can't see!

 

[savagewind]

They've even said that women are a part of this group, when Revelation 14:4 states: "it is these who have not defiled themselves with women." And since the masculine pronouns are used of this group, it shows that they are all men.

Galatians 3: 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Your saying, "they are all men" disagrees with Galatians 3:28 and thus is a false teaching.

 

[katiemygirl]

Everyone knows--the wages of sin is death--If Jesus death covered everyones sin like some false teachers claim, then no one would have to die, but even Paul, Peter, Mary all of them died and paid the wages of sin. When Jesus made the statement--- some of you here will never taste death--he was speaking to those who are his true followers, but since all of those tasted death--(he was actually speaking to the anointed teachers who will be changed in the twinkling of an eye during the tribulation and to the great multitude who will be brought through Har-mageddon.( Prov 2:21-22--Matt 24:22) To Gods kingdom rule on earth. These will never taste death.)

It is true that because Adam sinned, we all physically die.

God told Adam,
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

The wages of sin is death. No doubt about it!

However, we know Adam did not die that day, and we know God does not lie.

So what death did Adam experience that day?

In Ephesians, Paul writes,
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

What does Paul mean by "he made us alive in Christ even when we were dead in our transgressions? What does he mean by it is by grace you have been saved?

Is Paul talking about physical death? Did he and others physically die and were then raised to life? If made alive does not mean raised from being physically dead,, then what does it mean?

What death did Paul and the Ephesians experience?

 

[katiemygirl]

="Pegg, post: 4326903, member: 23994"]Who do you think these are mentioned here...“Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom.” Luke 12:32

I'm glad you asked these questions. Both are good ones. I believe you need to examine both verses in their entire context.

The "little flock" Jesus talks about are the apostles and disciples of Christ, which include us..

Please tell me where do the terms "little flock" and 144,000 appear together in the Scriptures?

And tell me who you think are these ones mentioned here...."And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold;+ those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd". John 10:16

They are the Gentiles.

In Mt.15:24, Jesus said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

This was the flock he was to shepherd when he did his ministry on earth.

The Gentiles were brought into the sheepfold at the house of Cornelius.

In this same chapter, verse 11, Jesus says,
“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.”

Does he give his life for some sheep or all?

In John 10:14-16, Jesus says,
“I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.”

Doesn't the Bible teach that both the 144,000, and the so-called earthly class are all sheep?

Did Jesus lay His life down for only the 144,000?

Right from the beginning of John 10, Jesus says,

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep."

Then in verses 3-4

“To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.”

Are these sheep he calls by name who know his voice only the 144,000?

And then we come to verse 16.

“And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.”

How many flocks are there Pegg? Aren't all the sheep to be under that one shepherd?

In John 10:27, Jesus says,
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.”

All the sheep follow him and if they don’t then verse 26 applies to them,

“But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you”

Jesus says they will hear My voice. He says also of the other sheep they will hear My voice. So all hear his voice and have him as their shepherd or they are not his.

The new covenant is applied to both Jews and Gentiles, who enter the body of Christ by Jesus being their mediator. Jesus' reference to other Sheep makes it clear he has a single sheepfold, he is the shepherd of both Jews and Gentiles.

Any reference by Jesus to a Little flock and to other sheep was not about two different destinations but to two different people groups, Jews and Gentiles.

Matt 25:31-34 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. “All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left” Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.”

Jesus returns and only the sheep enter the kingdom.

Who are the sheep Pegg?

Notice how they are divided? The sheep are not divided as those who exclusively go to heaven and those who are on earth.

The sheep and the goats are divided. They are the saved and the unsaved.

 

[katiemygirl]

But isn't that similar to what happened the first time?

He came in the flesh, as quite obviously the signs indicated, but only few were willing to recognize him as having came in the flesh?

He even had his coming being announced to the then world, still, only few were willing to recognize him.

What man sees and what man is willing to admit to seeing are two different things.

Don't confuse His first coming with His second.

Jesus didn't come on a cloud the first time, and every eye did not see Him. Every eye will literally see Him when He comes again, and every knee will bow before Him....they will give Him the worship due Him. They will confess JESUS IS LORD!

 

[djhwoodwerks]

along with the 144000, there is a 'Great Crowd' who also serve God before his throne.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000,+ sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel...'
Vs9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne,+ and to the Lamb.”

There is a little flock and a other sheep according to Jesus. The Other Sheep are 'not of this fold' So there is obviously a difference between these two groups. If you cannot see that then it must be because you refuse to see it.

My, my, my look's like the light hasn't become brighter yet! You see it that was because you have been trained well! Have you ever done any study of the "LITTLE FLOCK" and :OTHER SHEEP" other than the false teaching of the GB to puff themselves up? Probably not. But if you would this is what you would find.


John 10:13-16 (ESVST) . 14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. ( He is talking to the Jews, correct?)


Mat 10:5-6 (ESVST) 5 These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Salsation comes to the Jew

John 1:10-13 (ESVST) . 11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (He came to His own, the Jews, but they, the Jews, did not receive Him. But to "ALL" who did receive Him, the Gentiles)

Rom 9:25-26 (ESVST) "Those who were not my people I will call ' my people, and her who was not beloved I will call ' beloved. '26 " And in the very place where it was said to them, ' You are not my people, there they will be called ' sons of the living God. (The Gentiles, not Jews)

Rom 9:27-28 (ESVST) 27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: " Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay." (The little flock. Not only the anointed)

Rom 9:30-33 (ESVST) 30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written,
" Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame

Rom 11:11 (ESVST) 11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.


The Gentiles are the sheep "not of this fold"


Gal 3:25-28 (ESVST) 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (If you know your Bible, you will know that the word Greek means Gentile.The Gentiles spoke Greek.)


Please, don't take my word and opinion on this, but please do an independent study on your own. TRUST NO MAN'S WISDOM. TRUST ONLY GOD. Yes, God gave teachers and preachers to the church, but the HOLY SPIRIT is the ultimate teacher He will guide us into all truth.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

It is true that because Adam sinned, we all physically die.

God told Adam,
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

The wages of sin is death. No doubt about it!

However, we know Adam did not die that day, and we know God does not lie.

So what death did Adam experience that day?

In Ephesians, Paul writes,
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

What does Paul mean by "he made us alive in Christ even when we were dead in our transgressions? What does he mean by it is by grace you have been saved?

Is Paul talking about physical death? Did he and others physically die and were then raised to life? If made alive does not mean raised from being physically dead,, then what does it mean?

What death did Paul and the Ephesians experience?

They don't read Romans 6:1-6 they take that one verse, verse 7, out of context to back their doctrine.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Jesus didn't come on a cloud the first time, and every eye did not see Him. Every eye will literally see Him when He comes again, and every knee will bow to Him....they will give Him the worship due Him. They will confess JESUS IS LORD!

I bet the JW's won't worship Him! Because He is only "A god"

 

[katiemygirl]

I bet the JW's won't worship Him! Because He is only "A god"

They won't be given a choice at that point. The Scriptures are clear. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.

Lord come quickly!

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Luke 18:9-14 (ESVST) 10 " Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus:' God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get. (The Jehovah's Witnesses)

Jehovah, I thank you I'm not like Christendom, I go door to door. I don't take blood transfusion, I don't celebrate pagan holidays, I don't vote or join the military



13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ' God, be merciful to me, a sinner! (Christendom)

Jesus, My Lord and my God.


14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted."

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Our governing body members are door to door preachers just like all of us. No one is treated any differently just because they are anointed or a GB member. The GB and other anointed ones are the mainstays of our preaching work. They dont sit in offices all day doing nothing.



You reallly have no idea about who the GB are and what they do , do you?

Thats a shame if you base your view on what you dont know.

You may be right! That's why they don't understand what God tells them, they are way too busy. Meeting "ONCE" a week on Wednesday as the slave. But the rest the week they are going door to door, serving as directors of the different committees. They are busy men.

 

[katiemygirl]

"Pegg, post: 4324243, member: 23994"]Yes, physical death is exactly what we I meant.

Physical death was a consequence of sin. Adam was plainly told that if he ate from the tree, he would die. This implies that death was not a natural process for the man. I was the result of disobedience.

And that is why so many bible writers spoke of the hope to live forever. For example:

Job 14:14 If a man dies, can he live again?+ I will wait all the days of my compulsory service
Until my relief comes.+15 You will call, and I will answer you.+You will long* for the work of your hands.

Daniel 12:13 But as for you, go on to the end. You will rest, but you will stand up for your lot* at the end of the days.”

Luke 10:25 Now look! a man versed in the Law stood up to test him and said: “Teacher,what do I need to do to inherit everlasting life?”

Death was a punishment for sin...removing the punishment of sin would result in the gift of life. But a sinner cannot remove the punishment for sin....only God can. But God has not removed the death penalty from any sinner....not even his most faithful servants.

I guess if you dont believe that death is a punishment, it could be easy to view it as natural. and if thats the case, then sure, the verses you mention would have to be refering to spiritual death. But I dont believe the bible portrays death as natural. It is described even by christians as an enemy and God promises to remove it. He can remove physical death because that is within his capability to do.... but could he remove a so-called 'spiritual death' if the decision to sin is ours to make?. If we choose to sin, God is not going to stop us. He gave us free will, which means he will not interfere with our decisions. So do you think he will remove free-will so we cannot sin anymore???

Pegg, my response is post #2088.