Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??

[JFish123]

Not at all. There were a number of bible scholars throughout the dark ages who got a lot right. They determined the Name Jehovah and wrote it in the bible. William Tyndale was the first english translator to do put the name into english.
There were scholars such as Cellarius’ who made remarks regarding the nature of Jesus Christ. Although he did not directly contradict the Trinity (it would have got him executed by the clergy) He distinguished the “Heavenly Father” from “his Son Jesus Christ” and wrote that Jesus was one of many gods and sons of the almighty God.
The Spanish theologian Michael Servetus used Bible texts to disprove the Trinity back in the 16th century.

There have been christians during those dark ages who did also come to the same conclusions as those early bible students.

But the reason why christians were in darkness for so long was foretold by Christs apostles way back in the first century.

“Oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.” (Acts 20:29, 30)

“There will also be false teachers among you. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects . . . , and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively.”—2 Peter 2:1, 2.

Christianity was hijacked for a long time. But when Gods due time came around, he made truth freely available and many christians responded. They began to promote true bible teachings....not only the early bible students btw, there were other preachers who were teaching similar truths.

Michael Servetus practiced astrology. You really want to use him as a guide on the bible? Bs what's more plausible, A few men in a span of 1,900 years supposedly knew the truth, or a few men in 1,900 years believed in false doctrine?

 

[JFish123]

Are you saying that Jesus did not know what Gods name was?

The prophets of old knew the name....they wrote it in their scriputres over 7,000 times. Do you really believe that Jesus did not know that name?

BTW, there is evidence from outside sources that the name of God was being 'written' by the Christians in the first century.

• Early Jewish writings indicate that Jewish Christians used the divine name in their writings. The Tosefta, a written collection of oral laws that was completed by about 300 C.E., says with regard to Christian writings that were burned on the Sabbath: “The books of the Evangelists and the books of the minim [thought to be Jewish Christians] they do not save from a fire. But they are allowed to burn where they are, they and the references to the Divine Name which are in them.” This same source quotes Rabbi Yosé the Galilean, who lived at the beginning of the second century C.E., as saying that on other days of the week, “one cuts out the references to the Divine Name which are in them [understood to refer to the Christian writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns.”

The reference to the christians writings containing the divine name in this jewish law book is evidence that Jesus did make known Gods name and the early christians were using it.

As apostate christians took over the congregations, they began hiding the divine name and omitting it from newer copies of the bible.

Shame on them and all who know and hide the divine name today.

Ea the divine name YHWY not Jehovah. Jehovah was man made by superstitious Jewish scribes who felt they would blaspheme if they said the true name of YHWY so they joined YHWY to the word for Lord Adonai and it BECAME Jehovah. Jehovah is not Gods actual name, it was man made.

 

[JFish123]

Can you tell me what the penalty was for eating the forbidden fruit in the garden of Eden?
Was Adam fully informed about what would happen to him if he wilfully broke the only command there was?
What sentence did God pass on him? (Gen 3:19)

Humans were created in much the same way as all other creatures of flesh and blood. But something gave him an advantage.....only he was created with the intellectual, moral and spiritual qualities of his Creator. And the only thing that could end his mortal life was disobedience to the only command that carried the death penalty.

It was God's first purpose to have a race of perfect, free willed beings living on this earth who would have his attributes and act as caretakers of all the other creatures who shared life with him. All creatures had a finite life cycle....except man. Only he had an expectation to live forever, without dying. But this would only come about by his continued obedience.

A rebel spirit son of God caused an upset in the beginning but not one that was too serious. Mankind lost their physical perfection and were barred from "the tree of life"...the one thing that guaranteed continued life. (Gen 3:22-24) God stepped in straight away with a solution....one that would test not only humankind, but also all of God's spirit creatures as well. He would allow freedom of choice without much intervention, to prove that his rule was superior and that human rule under the pretender's influence would not be successful. Sin and death would rule mankind from that time on, until the savior came offered his life to save them.
Humans, for now would have no advantage over the animals. (Eccl 3:19, 20)

If Adam and his wife had simply obeyed their God, they would still be alive today in global paradise conditions, working alongside all their progeny in complete peace and security.
Christ would never have been needed as a savior and God would have continued as king over humankind. No humans would have ever gone to heaven. Have you ever contemplated this?



Can humans souls exist without emotions? It is after all, what makes us human. And Yet Solomon wrote...

"Ecclesiastes 9:3-6, 10...."This is the sad thing about all that happens under the sun: the same fate awaits everyone. Moreover, the human heart is full of evil; people’s minds are full of madness while they are alive, and afterward they die. Whoever is among the living can be certain about this. A living dog is definitely better off than a dead lion, because the living know that they will die. But the dead know nothing at all. There is no more reward for them; even the memory of them is lost. Their love and their hate, as well as their zeal, are already long gone. They will never again have a stake in all that happens under the sun....Whatever you are capable of doing, do with all your might because there’s no work, thought, knowledge, or wisdom in the grave, which is where you are headed." (CEB)

A person's emotions cease at death...'their love and their hate as well as their zeal are gone'. They have no ability to work, think or know anything because death renders them inactive. "The grave" is Sheol, the Hebrew equivalent of Hades.



Can I just clarify the one thing before we go on? The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is a Bible publishing house, licensed under American law for the printing and distribution of large volumes of Bibles and literature.

We are Jehovah's Witnesses.

So first we need to discern the difference between "soul" and "spirit". They do not mean the same thing in Hebrew. A soul is never disembodied. Spirit (pneuma) means "breath".

This is where knowledge of the Bible's teaching to Israel comes in. The ancient Jews had no concept of life after death. Their hope of living again was by means of a resurrection......not drifting off to heaven as spirit, but of complete non-existence in "the grave" as Solomon said. All the resurrections performed in the Bible were returns to life as humans of flesh and blood. This is what the Jews believed, so this is what Jesus showed them by demonstration.

When Jesus calls the dead out of their graves, where does he call them from? (John 5:28, 29) The exact same place from where he called Lazarus....his tomb. Where was Lazarus before Jesus raised him? Jesus tells us in John 11:11-14...."Our friend Lazarus is sleeping, but I am going in order to wake him up.” The disciples said, “Lord, if he’s sleeping, he will get well.” They thought Jesus meant that Lazarus was in a deep sleep, but Jesus had spoken about Lazarus’ death. Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died."

When Jesus said that we should not "fear those who can only kill the body but not the soul", he uses a word that most people miss. He said, "Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." "Hell" in this scripture is "sheol" or "hades". So in hades (the grave) as Solomon had said, the dead know nothing. All future life prospects for humankind are tied up in their resurrection. Only God can "destroy" a soul by leaving it in death, never to awaken. This is what "Gehenna" meant to a Jew.....a death with no resurrection. There is no immortal soul in the Bible.
The soul is completely mortal...it dies. (Ezekiel 18:4)

Apostate Christianity adopted belief in an immortal soul from the platonic Greek notion of life after death.



Again, without belief in an immortal soul, Jesus words make sense in another way. The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection. (Acts 23:8) Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had died and it was their belief in a resurrection when Messiah's kingdom came to the earth, that they would be restored to life. This was the reason that Abraham could offer up his son so willingly.....he figured that since all the messianic promises were made through Isaac, that God would simply raise him from the dead. Since all the promises were to be fulfilled on earth, then his future life prospects had to be earthly. (Heb 11:17-19) As far as God is concerned, it's as if all his faithful pre-Christian servants still live, but are just waiting in their graves for the call to come out. (Heb 11:39, 40) They are just "sleeping" from his perspective, as Jesus said.

Now it's my turn to hit the hay.....I will address your other posts tomorrow, Aussie time.

The Jehovahs Witnesses grossly misunderstand Psalm 146:3-4. It does not say that people will think no thoughts at all following the moment of death. Rather in context of the original Hebrew, it means that people's Plans, Ambitions, and Ideas for the future will cease and come to nought at the moment of death.
As for Ecclesiastes 9:5:
It is well known that the book of Ecclesiastes presents two contrasting ways to look at mans plight in the world. One is secular, humanistic, and a materialistic viewpoint that interprets all things from a limited earthly perspective. The other perspective is Godly and a spiritual one that interprets life and it's problems from a God honoring viewpoint.
Ecclesiastes 9:1-10 reflect the EARTHLY perspective that is unaided by divine revelation.
Not only does the writer say in verse 5 that the dead know nothing, but he also adds that "they have no more FOREVER any share In all that is under the sun" does the Jehovahs Witness believe the dead are gone FOREVER? Of course not right? Because you believe in a future resurrection to this earth under the sun. Verse 2 expresses the thought that "one fate comes to all, to the righteous and wicked, to the good and the evil." An idea contrary to the rest of Scripture. Do you believe we'll all receive the same fate whether were righteous or wicked? Of course not. We conclude then that verse 5 is located right in the midst of a section expressing the faithless secular viewpoint, not Gods. So since Ecclesiastes 9:1-10 expresses a strictly human perspective, then verse 5 indicates that from a STRICTLY HUMAN perspective, the dead are conscience of nothing at all.

 

[Mattithyah]

The Savior was quite clear when He instructed us, and He simply quoted "Old Testament" Law, Ordinances, Judgments, etc.

Mat_15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mat_5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The word which has been translated as commandments in the King James Version is Greek word ἐντολή. This word is listed in The New Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible under #1785 and it says it means: injunction, that is, an authoritative prescription: - commandment, precept.

Etymonline.com says injunction means: injunction (n.) early 15c., from Late Latin injunctionem (nominative injunctio) "a command," noun of action from past participle stem of Latin injungere "impose," literally "attach to" (seeenjoin).

TheFreeDictionary defines injunction as: A court order by which an individual is required to perform, or is restrained from performing, a particular act.

It should be obvious that Yahshua Messiah was instruction us to keep certain Laws, but not to base our salvation on Laws and principles not sanctioned by the Holy Scriptures.

Joh_13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Although the Apostle Yahchanan (John to you Christians) said he was giving them a "new" commandment, anyone who knows their Bible much at all should know that this is not a new commandment, so he was instructing new members of the House of Yahweh, not veterans in the Faith.

2Jn_1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

Joh_15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself...

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. [Indicating that if you don't obey those Laws/Commandments, you won't have eternal life?]

Back to that word ἐντολή [commandments in English]; according to The New Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, page 218, this word means: an order, command, charge, precept, injunction; precepts of Jewish Law; and, of collectively of the whole body of moral precepts of Christianity.

Revelation 22:18-19 "For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this Book: If any man/woman/child/movie/etc will add to these things, Yahweh will add to him the plagues that are written in this Book: And if any man will take away from the words of this Book of this prophecy, Yahweh will take away his part out of The Book of Life, and out of the Holy city, and from the things which are written in this Book." ~ Book of Yahweh [Indicating that if you teach without authority, or teach wrong even though you have authority, you will suffer the curse up to but not limited to death]

Want salvation? Want world peace?

Great peace have they who love Your Law ~ Psalm 119:165

Galatians 3:24 So in this, the Law is our teacher, leading us to Messiah

Did you follow the Law to where you are today? I doubt it. 99% of Christians believe the Laws were "nailed to the cross" and the "Old Testament" should never or rarely be read and never studied.

The Law is a system of rules for a government - a perfect government. Without Laws, do you know where we would be? The problem with man's laws is that they treat symptoms rather than roots. Arresting people for murder, rape, and other crimes treats the symptoms of a much deeper problem...

Yahweh instructed mankind to observe all the Laws, Statutes, Ordinances and Judgments so you will live, and live abundantly.
Pro 7:1 My son, keep my words, and lay up my commandments with thee.
Pro 7:2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

In Deuteronomy 28:1-14 we see the blessings that follow diligent and enduring obedience to Yahweh. Yahweh doesn't visit us in person to tell us what to do every day, so we have His perfect Law instead. Do you know what the Law is? It is the image of Yahweh's character! In Exodus 34:5-7 Yahweh seems to show Himself to Mosheh (Moses). He shows Mosheh His character, not His physical body or Mosheh would have died. Study the Scriptures and learn of all the examples of the Prophets and Patriarchs who were called "experts" in the Law. These men, and a few women, were highly influential and people went to them to judge matters according to the Law because Yahweh's Law teaches you to be perfect. Take for just one example, the Law instructing you to confess your sins to a Priest? How humiliating, embarrassing, and humbling is that?!?!?! I know from personal experience it is the most humbling thing in the world because I confess my sins every Sabbath to the Priests in the House of Yahweh. I don't consider this a burden as most Christians do. On the contrary, because I know that without the privilege of confessing my sins, and receiving instruction on what sin is, I would be a horrible person, just as I was before the House of Yahweh.

The Law instructs us in 3 separate tithes. The first tithe is to be given to the House of Yahweh for the maintenance and care of it, the grounds, the sanctuary [mowing, cleaning, cooking, etc]. Lev 27:30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is [Yahweh's]: it is holy... [Positive Commandment #127 of the 613]

The Second Tithe is for you to enjoy the Feasts, or pay your expenses while traveling to the Feasts. You can use these tithes to help you acquire certain study or worship materials too, but only after seeking wise counsel since it is also your traveling money unless you're rich
Deu 14:23 And thou shalt eat before [Yahweh], in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear [Yahweh].
Deu 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which [Yahweh] shall choose to set his name there, when [Yahweh] hath blessed thee:
Deu 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which [Yahweh] shall choose:
Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth [incorrect] after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before [Yahweh], and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,... [Positive Commandment #128]

It pains me to paste verses from the King James Bible...it's horribly inaccurate. The KJV makes Yahweh appear harsh and cruel, but He's not. For all those places that make Him out to be cruel, think of the times when David said He loved Yahweh and His Law, or when Mosheh told the people that the Law is near, in their hearts [Deut. 30:11-14]

The Third Tithe is to be sent or brought with you when you travel to keep the Feasts. It is for the poor and widows in the House of Yahweh so they may also enjoy the Feasts. Keeping these Laws require you to be diligent about saving and carefully watch how you spend your money. The Law is also specific in its' instruction that you seek counsel from the Priests, not just confess your sins. The Priests are not in office because they talk fancy and wear nice suits like Obama; they are in office because they have demonstrated that they can handle responsibility, have overcome (or nearly) all sin, and have been elected by Yahweh Himself through a system which does not allow cheating such as casting lots.

The Law instructs farmers NOT to glean the corners of their fields so that the poor or homeless may eat. Wouldn't that solve today's 4-million-homeless-in-America-problem?

The Law instructs us to love our neighbor as ourselves, and if there's any doubt, Yahshua expounded on who your neighbor is when He said when you visited me in prison, when you fed the poor, or nursed the sick, or helped your neighboring farmer to get his poor donkey out of the mud hole.

So, I must pause briefly to ask you (this community) a question: Do these members of the Watchtower governing body teach you these Laws? Do they teach you to observe these Laws? Or are they teaching you something else? Can you prove that what they are teaching is from Yahweh? The "Law of Mosheh" came from Yahweh, and the Bible says several times that the Law stands forever.
Exo_12:14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to [Yahweh] throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
Exo_12:17 And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.
Exo_12:24 And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.
Exo_27:21 In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before [Yahweh]: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.
Exo_28:43 And they shall be upon Aaron, and upon his sons, when they come in unto the tabernacle of the congregation, or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place; that they bear not iniquity, and die: it shall be a statute for ever unto him and his seed after him.
Exo_29:28 And it shall be Aaron's and his sons' by a statute for ever from the children of Israel: for it is an heave offering: and it shall be an heave offering from the children of Israel of the sacrifice of their peace offerings, even their heave offering unto [Yahweh].
Psa_33:11 The counsel of [Yahweh] standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
Psa_119:44 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever. [Suppose David intended to do this both in this life and the next? He did say for ever and ever! I believe the Law and eternal life go hand in hand and that those Laws are for ever.]

If you don't believe that Yahweh really meant "for ever" like all those verses say, then do you believe your salvation is also NOT "for ever?"

Jer 33:18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
Yeremyah [Jeremiah] 33:18 Nor will the Priests, the Levites, fail to have a man before Me continually, offering burnt offerings, burning grain offerings, and presenting sacrifices ~ Book of Yahweh

"Presenting sacrifices" means a lot, but for this discussion let's assume that it ONLY means bringing the sins that you confess and your name to Yahweh, through Yahshua, on your behalf so that you can be forgiven according to the Law.

The Law has a ton to say about sacrifices, but 99% of it concerns how to how to properly slaughter an animal, how to prepare food so it is healthy and beneficial, and how to raise it properly. All the food you eat is a sacrifice either to Yahweh or Satan. Everything you do and think, from the time you were about 2 years old is a sacrifice to either Yahweh or Satan. We all serve someone, but it is not possible to serve two rulers (Rom. 6:16), so choose for yourselves whom you will serve (Yahshua/Joshua 24:14-15)

So, I think maybe I've raised a few more questions than I've answered, so, who here knows what sin is? If you're going to break the Law and confess your sins directly to Yahweh in silent/private prayer, then you should at least know what sin is. Does the Holy Scriptures define sin in a clear and dry manner?

Yes!

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

See that? Sin is breaking the Law. How many times throughout the Holy Scriptures, both "Old" and "New" Testaments does Yahweh instruct us to stop sinning? Well, I've talked a lot about the "Old" Testament, so I'll harp for a while on the "New" one... hopefully I remember to address the "Old" and "New" Testament error.

Read this mini booklet titled "Did the Apostle Shaul Do Away With the Law?" I think it says it much better.

Romans 6:16 "Do you not know that to whom you yield yourselves as servants to obey, his servants you are whom you obey...?" Is that clear? Everyone serves someone, and if you are sinning, then you are NOT serving Yahweh.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven...

Do you think it's a bad thing to be called the "least" in the Kingdom of Yahweh? If you're following any of this in Strong's, you're going to have a few issues...

The Greek word, which has been translated as "least," is ελαχιστων and is plural, nominative, neuter gender as well as being the subject of the verb "called" [κληθησεται] which is also translated incorrectly and I will address next... This word ελαχιστων is defined on page means: less than nothing, not worth measuring, not worth mentioning, and refers to your name being removed from the Book of Life, or not being written in it to begin with.

[Westcott-Hort Greek New Testament with Strong's Numbering]19 ος3739 R-NSM εαν1437 COND ουν3767 CONJ λυση3089 V-AAS-3S μιαν1520 A-ASF των3588 T-GPF εντολων1785 N-GPF τουτων5130 D-GPF των3588 T-GPF ελαχιστων1646A-GPF και2532 CONJ διδαξη1321 V-AAS-3S ουτως3779 ADV τους3588 T-APM ανθρωπους444 N-APM ελαχιστος1646 A-NSM κληθησεται2564 V-FPI-3S εν1722 PREP τη3588 T-DSF βασιλεια932 N-DSF των3588 T-GPM ουρανων3772 N-GPM ος3739 R-NSM δ1161 CONJ αν302 PRT ποιηση4160 V-AAS-3S και2532 CONJ διδαξη1321 V-AAS-3S ουτος3778 D-NSM μεγας3173 A-NSM κληθησεται2564 V-FPI-3S εν1722 PREP τη3588 T-DSF βασιλεια932 N-DSF των3588 T-GPM ουρανων3772 N-GPM

Now, for κληθησεται Thayer's has quite a lot to say but it basically means to call or summon you before a court for a hearing, sentence, trial, etc. Yes, the Law is everywhere. There are "courts" in Heaven. At the Great White Throne Judgment, you don't want to be adjudged guilty and given the new name of worthless or not even worthy of noting because the sentence is death. According to
Ecclesiastes 9:5 the dead don't know they are dead. In fact they don't know anything because they're dead.

 

[Awoon]

"Least in the Kingdom." Yepper everybody gets in.

That's if you think a Monarchy Government is better then Democracy Government.

 

[kjw47]

People in charity of Christian organizations like Samaritans Purse do share Jesus when oversees or here at home helping people through tragedy. So I don't know where this baseless comment is coming from.
Secondly those who study the scriptures from all over the world have shown in the Greek and Hebrew time and time again that the New World translation is biased toward presuppositions in their theology and therefor man made and wrong, even deceitful. And that's a shame. Because I know JW's and they have a real love for Jesus but they are being fed by an organization that is feeding them a deceitful gospel which will only hurt them when they stand before Christ. He is God. So sadly, the fear for all those JW's I have is when they see Jesus and say, "Well, I went door to door preaching for you and helping people for you and delivering for you." And He will say to them, "I never knew you. As you didn't know me." For since He is God clearly shown on the scriptures, and you deny that, and even teach people to deny that, how could you truly know Him if you deny a central tenet of who He is? How will you escape the judgment to come?
I'm afraid and my heart goes out for there will be people in hell who lived for Jesus but didn't really live with Him, by truly knowing him. And they will feel rage for being deceived by the Watchtower, but it will be a realization that will come to late.
I do not want that to happen to ANY one especially not a Jehovahs Witness. But the more they believe in the Watchtower, I'm afraid they Less they believe In what the Word of God actually says and means.

If you teach--Jesus is God--then you teach God has a God--here at Rev 3:12---Jesus own words.
Who is right--Jesus or your teachers, because they contradict each other--who do you believe?
I know 100% for sure--the JW teachers are Jesus anointed teachers.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

If you teach--Jesus is God--then you teach God has a God--here at Rev 3:12---Jesus own words.
Who is right--Jesus or your teachers, because they contradict each other--who do you believe?
I know 100% for sure--the JW teachers are Jesus anointed teachers.

Please explain this to me. How can a group of imperfect human, mortal men be and exist greater than their Creator?

JW's think the idea of the Creator, Who is perfect, immortal, Holy, all powerful existing as a trinity is just blasphemy. But when a group of sinful, mortal, imperfect men say they exist as a composite slave, you all accept that as truth. You honor them as God's whatever. That is blasphemy, making sinful men greater than God.

 

[Mattithyah]

The Jehovahs Witnesses grossly misunderstand Psalm 146:3-4. It does not say that people will think no thoughts at all following the moment of death. Rather in context of the original Hebrew, it means that people's Plans, Ambitions, and Ideas for the future will cease and come to nought at the moment of death.
As for Ecclesiastes 9:5:
It is well known that the book of Ecclesiastes presents two contrasting ways to look at mans plight in the world. One is secular, humanistic, and a materialistic viewpoint that interprets all things from a limited earthly perspective. The other perspective is Godly and a spiritual one that interprets life and it's problems from a God honoring viewpoint.
Ecclesiastes 9:1-10 reflect the EARTHLY perspective that is unaided by divine revelation.
Not only does the writer say in verse 5 that the dead know nothing, but he also adds that "they have no more FOREVER any share In all that is under the sun" does the Jehovahs Witness believe the dead are gone FOREVER? Of course not right? Because you believe in a future resurrection to this earth under the sun. Verse 2 expresses the thought that "one fate comes to all, to the righteous and wicked, to the good and the evil." An idea contrary to the rest of Scripture. Do you believe we'll all receive the same fate whether were righteous or wicked? Of course not. We conclude then that verse 5 is located right in the midst of a section expressing the faithless secular viewpoint, not Gods. So since Ecclesiastes 9:1-10 expresses a strictly human perspective, then verse 5 indicates that from a STRICTLY HUMAN perspective, the dead are conscience of nothing at all.

@JayJayDee You are wrong. The dead are dead and no longer exist. They cannot have thoughts whether of pain or anything else.

Gen 3:19c ...for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Psa 37:20 ...into smoke shall they consume away.
Psa 69:28a Let them be blotted out of the book of the living... [not be alive for ever in hell]
Psa 34:21 Evil shall slay the wicked... [or how can you believe they are dead and alive in hell at the same time?]
Psa 92:7c ...it is that they shall be destroyed for ever. [anything that is destroyed, no longer exists by anyone's definition]
That word "destroyed" according to Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Definitions (eSword):
H8045
שׁמד
shâmad
BDB Definition:
1) to destroy, exterminate, be destroyed, be exterminated
1a) (Niphal)
1a1) to be annihilated, be exterminated
1a2) to be destroyed, be devastated
1b) (Hiphil)
1b1) to annihilate, exterminate
1b2) to destroy

Oba 1:16 ...and they shall be as though they had not been.
Mal. 4:1 compares them to wheat stubble that is thrown into a fire and nothing is left.

Lastly, I must argue that from a rational and reasonable standpoint, Yahweh would not create a place like Hell because He is abounding in mercy. Don't confuse mercy with forgiveness. Mercy is allowing a person to die, cease to exist, and no longer plague the rest of mankind with their sins. Some sin break up homes, some sins start wars, some sins spread disease (Leviticus 18). The person who eats pork/bacon for example becomes infectious with disease and/or parasites that are passed on to others. These diseases, among many others, cause great harm and suffering to people. The mercy of Yahweh is to allow that person's disease to run its course, let them die, and not let them live another life because they did not love their neighbor as themselves.

Of course, these verses also disprove the doctrine of the eternal soul. Did you know that you have to sign a form stating, among other things, that you believe in the eternal soul if you want to become a Freemason? The idea of the eternal soul does not originate with Christianity, nor is it taught in the Hebrew manuscripts. It is of pagan origin and is older than the Earth. The very first thing Satan told Eve was "Did Yahweh really say that? You won't really die! You'll live forever and it doesn't matter what you do." Of course I paraphrased it somewhat. If you want to get better insight into what was really being said there, try (with a grain of salt) reading The Hebraic Tongue Restored, by Fabre d'Olivet, Part Second on the Cosmology of Moses. Like the King James Version, it too is full of error, but in many ways it is also more accurate.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I can believe in the resurrection of the dead and final absolute death at the same time because Yahweh breathes life into dust. It's not like I have some soul wandering around waiting for my body to be made new again. To Yahweh, we are nothing more than a computer with the ability to use similitude, and reason among ourselves until we "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling." Man's greatest scientific minds see a far distant goal of creating life. This is possible WITH Yahweh. In the Book of Ezk. and chapter 37 Yahweh describes, in part, how and who will perform the resurrection. The Earth is defiled, and if you study and believe the Law, neither Yahweh nor Yahshua can set one foot on Earth until it is restored to its' former beauty - the way Yahweh originally created it.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I createH1254 newH2319 heavens and a new earth...

H1254 does mean to create, but it also means to cause to be, to shape, to fashion, to mold, to transform, to perform a miracle
H2319 does not mean new though, it actually means "renew" or to make "fresh"
I only looked at those two words, so properly translated this verse should read something like...or more like... "For, Behold! I am bringing about the restoration and renewing

of the Heavens and the Earth..." [Indicating that He is, and has been in the process of doing this since sin was introduced through Adam and Eve. He does this through the Plan, the blueprint for success or pattern given to mankind and specifically to Mosheh in Ex. 25:40]

 

[djhwoodwerks]

You are jumping to conclusions saying "Jesus emptied himself of divine nature". How do you know it is what the scripture means? Maybe it means he emptied himself of all self-will. "I do nothing of my own initiative, but do only what I see The Father doing". He emptied himself of his initiative.

Please define the divine nature that Jesus emptied himself of. Love? Wisdom? Justice? Understanding?

SW, do you even know which side of the table you want to sit at? Seems like you disagree with both sides.

 

[Mattithyah]

Please explain this to me. How can a group of imperfect human, mortal men be and exist greater than their Creator?

JW's think the idea of the Creator, Who is perfect, immortal, Holy, all powerful existing as a trinity is just blasphemy. But when a group of sinful, mortal, imperfect men say they exist as a composite slave, you all accept that as truth. You honor them as God's whatever. That is blasphemy, making sinful men greater than God.

As Yahshua said, "You do err, not knowing the Scriptures."

There are several men mentioned in the Holy Scriptures as being perfect, and there are several called righteous...

Mosheh, for example, was prophesied to do the things that He did. He was the savior and deliverer of an entire nation of people which totaled at least 6 million people. Those prophesies meant that He could not be led astray nor be deceived.

Joh_6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of [Yahweh], that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

This was/is not ONLY true of Yahshua Messiah, but all the Prophets throughout history because Yahweh sent every one of them. [c.f. Jer. 23:21]

Yahchanan 6:29 "Yahshua answered, and said to them: This is the work of Yahweh: that you believe into the One Sent." Mosheh was sent to the Hebrews, Jeremiah was sent, Isayah was sent, ... all the prophets were sent. You find the One Sent on earth today, and you proactively believe into Him. By serving Yahweh's anointed minister on earth, you are serving Yahweh.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

As Yahshua said, "You do err, not knowing the Scriptures."

There are several men mentioned in the Holy Scriptures as being perfect, and there are several called righteous...

Mosheh, for example, was prophesied to do the things that He did. He was the savior and deliverer of an entire nation of people which totaled at least 6 million people. Those prophesies meant that He could not be led astray nor be deceived.

Joh_6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of [Yahweh], that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

This was/is not ONLY true of Yahshua Messiah, but all the Prophets throughout history because Yahweh sent every one of them. [c.f. Jer. 23:21]

Yahchanan 6:29 "Yahshua answered, and said to them: This is the work of Yahweh: that you believe into the One Sent." Mosheh was sent to the Hebrews, Jeremiah was sent, Isayah was sent, ... all the prophets were sent. You find the One Sent on earth today, and you proactively believe into Him. By serving Yahweh's anointed minister on earth, you are serving Yahweh.

Nothing but rubbish! God did not send the GB of the JW's. They are false prophets, and have taught lies since the 1800's. Study their teachings, they can't and don't understand the Bible.

1Co 14:33 33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.

The GB is as confused as it gets!

 

[savagewind]

SW, do you even know which side of the table you want to sit at? Seems like you disagree with both sides.

Well, well. Thank you for noticing! I am aware Christianity isn't about fighting. I wonder why you are not aware.

1 Timothy 6:4
they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions
2 Timothy 2:14
Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
2 Timothy 2:23
Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.
Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.
James 4:1
What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you?

 

[Awoon]

Well, well. Thank you for noticing! I am aware Christianity isn't about fighting. I wonder why you are not aware.

1 Timothy 6:4
they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions
2 Timothy 2:14
Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
2 Timothy 2:23
Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.
Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.
James 4:1
What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you?

Those verses would destroy this place if Christians believed them.

 

[savagewind]

Those verses would destroy this place if Christians believed them.

It wouldn't destroy the place. But the place would be a lot less wordy. That is for sure! I hope they appreciate all the band width they use saying the same thing over and over and over......again.

 

[james2ko]

It wouldn't destroy the place. But the place would be a lot less wordy. That is for sure! I hope they appreciate all the band width they use saying the same thing over and over and over......again.

Waitasec. Did you not start the thread? Nevertheless, Awoon is right. Shame on us. We are to amicably share knowledge of our beliefs and doctrines not quarrel over whose right and who isn't. Thanks for the reminder Awoon.

 

[savagewind]

Waitasec. Did you not start the thread? Nevertheless, Awoon is right. Shame on us. We are to amicably share knowledge of our beliefs and doctrines not quarrel over whose right and who isn't. Thanks for the reminder Awoon.

Not my thread. LOL. I wonder why you think so.

.....Where IS waitasec?

 

[katiemygirl]

="Pegg, post: 4336021, member: 23994"]not really...the changes have always been minor. No teaching has been completely overturned or omitted..

Watchtower taught, from the beginning that Jesus was to be worshiped. That changed in the 1950's. That is major!

I take it you haven't read the history of the organization?

 

[katiemygirl]

Waitasec. Did you not start the thread? Nevertheless, Awoon is right. Shame on us. We are to amicably share knowledge of our beliefs and doctrines not quarrel over whose right and who isn't. Thanks for the reminder Awoon.

I started the thread. Just sent you a pm.

 

[james2ko]

Not my thread. LOL. I wonder why you think so.

.....Where IS waitasec?

You're right. Just realized it was Katie. Sorry about that. Yeah I miss talking to her.

 

[savagewind]

Watchtower taught, from the beginning that Jesus was to be worshiped. That changed in the 1950's. That is major!

I take it you haven't read the history of the organization?

Jehovah's Witness historical worship of Jesus until 1954

"Jehovah's Witnesses worshipped Jesus until 1954, after which they were told such worship was idolatrous. This made them a polytheistic religion for most of their history. The core to religion is God, and to change the God you worship is to change the very essence and basis of the religion."