djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
Do the JW's deny Jesus? Let's see. Notice, God is worshiped and satan is worshiped according to their Bible, But Jesus only get's obeisance. The devil gets worshiped, but not Jesus. Who denies Jesus?
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Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??
- Thread starter katiemygirl
- Start date
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
I think you and I have very different ideas on what 'hell' actually is. The bible hell is nothing more then the 'grave'
The hebrew word for hell is 'sheol'... its the same word used to describe where Christ himself went when he died.
Acts 2:25-27, KJ: “David speaketh concerning him [Jesus Christ], . . .Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,
Do you believe God put Jesus in hell to be tormented by the demons?
1. Death is put into the lake of fire. How can a 'condition' be tortured with eternal fire?
2. Rev 21:4 says 'Death will be no more'... so once it is in the lake of fire, it will not exist. This tells us a lot about the lake of fire...what goes in becomes non-existent.
3. Hell is put into the lake of fire. Like death, hell will be no more because hell is the grave. The significance of the grave not existing is that no one will be dying. Mankind will be living forever, hence hell/grave is gone.
This is also in harmony with Isaiah 25:8 'He will swallow up* death forever...' and 1Cor 15:26 'And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing'
4. Mankind cease to exist when they die...there is no afterlife according to the bible. So the lake of fire will not be a place of conscious existence:
Ps 146:4 “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.”
Ps 104:29 When you hide your face, they are disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust
Eccl 9:5 For the living know* that they will die,+ but the dead know nothing at all,
Eccl 3;20 All are going to the same place.+ They all come from the dust,+ and they all are returning to the dust
Pslam 115:17 The dead do not praise Jah, Nor do any who go down into the silence of death
And Jesus was a Jew who believed these teachings of the hebrew scriptures. We can see this by what he said about his friend Lazarus who had died....
John 11:11 After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep,+but I am traveling there to awaken him.”
4. Hebrews 2:4 says that Jesus will destroy the Devil '...he also similarly shared in the same things,+ so that through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death,+ that is, the Devil,',
but consider, if the lake of fire is a literal place then the devil will have to be kept alive because Revelation 20:10 says 'And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur.'
There are a number of inconsistencies if the lake of fire is a literal place where the wicked and Satan and his demons are tortured. Its a contradiction of the promise that the Devil will be destroyed. Its a contradiction of the true state of the dead...namely, they are not conscious and not in existence. its even a contradiction of your own belief that the wicked are tormented by Satan and the demons. If the devil is also put into the lake of fire to be tormented for all eternity, who is doing the tormenting? It is not Satan and the demons. Have you considered the implication?
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djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
*** w11 7/15 p. 16 par. 7 Will You Heed Jehovah’s Clear Warnings? ***
7 What is involved in avoiding false teachers? We do not receive them into our homes or greet them. We also refuse to read their literature, watch TV programs that feature them, examine their Web sites, or add our comments to their blogs.
Some people are not true to Jehovah or the organization! And you call yourselves the only true religion? You're disobeying God and the GB. Shame on you!
Only to the apostles. Read the whole chapter.
Sorry, you'll have to argue with yourself my friend.
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
This deserves repeating.
*** w58 8/1 p. 460 Dawns a New Era for the Irish ***
Fear has a great hold on the people. People are afraid of what their neighbors, their friends, relatives and clergy might think if they were even so much as to read the Bible on their own. For centuries the clergy have dominated their lives, told them what they can read, what they should believe and do. To ask a sound religious question is a demonstration of lack of faith in God and the church, according to the clergy. As a result, the Irish people do very little independent thinking. They are victims of the clergy and fear; but freedom is in sight.
It seems to me that the WT is condemning the Catholic religion for the way it manipulates it's members, does it not? Isn't the WT manipulating it's members in the same identical way? Yes it is.
The GB doesn't allow reading the Bible alone.
*** km 9/07 p. 3 Question Box ***
▪ Does “the faithful and discreet slave” endorse independent groups of Witnesses who meet together to engage in Scriptural research or debate?—Matt. 24:45, 47.
No, it does not. And yet, in various parts of the world, a few associates of our organization have formed groups to do independent research on Bible-related subjects. Some have pursued an independent group study of Biblical Hebrew and Greek so as to analyze the accuracy of the New World Translation. Others explore scientific subjects related to the Bible. They have created Web sites and chat rooms for the purpose of exchanging and debating their views. They have also held conferences and produced publications to present their findings and to supplement what is provided at our Christian meetings and through our literature.
*** w57 7/1 p. 415 Questions From Readers ***
“Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the Scripture Studies aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years—if he then lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness.
The GB tells all members what they can and can't read, what they should believe and do.
*** km 9/07 p. 3 Question Box ***
Surely we are grateful for Jehovah’s spiritual provisions in these last days. Thus, “the faithful and discreet slave” does not endorse any literature, meetings, or Web sites that are not produced or organized under its oversight.—Matt. 24:45-47.
The GB discourages independent thinking.
*** w83 1/15 p. 22 Exposing the Devil’s Subtle Designs ***
Avoid Independent Thinking
20 From the very outset of his rebellion Satan called into question God’s way of doing things. He promoted independent thinking.
*** w87 11/1 pp. 19-20 par. 15 Are You Remaining Clean in Every Respect? ***
True, such smooth talkers may look outwardly clean in a physical and moral way. But inside they are spiritually unclean, having given in to prideful, independent thinking.
What are your thoughts about the resemblance?
*** w58 8/1 p. 460 Dawns a New Era for the Irish ***
Fear has a great hold on the people. People are afraid of what their neighbors, their friends, relatives and clergy might think if they were even so much as to read the Bible on their own. For centuries the clergy have dominated their lives, told them what they can read, what they should believe and do. To ask a sound religious question is a demonstration of lack of faith in God and the church, according to the clergy. As a result, the Irish people do very little independent thinking. They are victims of the clergy and fear; but freedom is in sight.
It seems to me that the WT is condemning the Catholic religion for the way it manipulates it's members, does it not? Isn't the WT manipulating it's members in the same identical way? Yes it is.
The GB doesn't allow reading the Bible alone.
*** km 9/07 p. 3 Question Box ***
▪ Does “the faithful and discreet slave” endorse independent groups of Witnesses who meet together to engage in Scriptural research or debate?—Matt. 24:45, 47.
No, it does not. And yet, in various parts of the world, a few associates of our organization have formed groups to do independent research on Bible-related subjects. Some have pursued an independent group study of Biblical Hebrew and Greek so as to analyze the accuracy of the New World Translation. Others explore scientific subjects related to the Bible. They have created Web sites and chat rooms for the purpose of exchanging and debating their views. They have also held conferences and produced publications to present their findings and to supplement what is provided at our Christian meetings and through our literature.
*** w57 7/1 p. 415 Questions From Readers ***
“Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the Scripture Studies aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years—if he then lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness.
The GB tells all members what they can and can't read, what they should believe and do.
*** km 9/07 p. 3 Question Box ***
Surely we are grateful for Jehovah’s spiritual provisions in these last days. Thus, “the faithful and discreet slave” does not endorse any literature, meetings, or Web sites that are not produced or organized under its oversight.—Matt. 24:45-47.
The GB discourages independent thinking.
*** w83 1/15 p. 22 Exposing the Devil’s Subtle Designs ***
Avoid Independent Thinking
20 From the very outset of his rebellion Satan called into question God’s way of doing things. He promoted independent thinking.
*** w87 11/1 pp. 19-20 par. 15 Are You Remaining Clean in Every Respect? ***
True, such smooth talkers may look outwardly clean in a physical and moral way. But inside they are spiritually unclean, having given in to prideful, independent thinking.
What are your thoughts about the resemblance?
djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
If we cease to exist when we die, who or what were the spirits Jesus preached to after He was put to death? And how could He preach to them if He ceased to exist?
1Pe 3:18-20 (ESVST) 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water
1Pe 3:18-20 (ESVST) 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
The NT was written in Greek, not Hebrew. The Greek word for hell is HADES. Hades is the unseen world of the dead. It is where everyone goes that has died. The good go to Abraham's bosom, aka "paradise." Unbelievers go to Tatarus, a place of torment. Hades is not the lake of fire. It is a temporary place, and when Jesus comes again, ALL will be raised up for the final judgement. The good will go to heaven. The evil will be cast into the lake of fire where there will be gnashing of teeth, and everlasting torment.
Hades is where Jesus went to preach. He did not go to the lake of fire. You need to research this for yourself, instead of depending on your so-called GB for the doctrine of Jesus Christ and His apostles.
Death will be thrown into the lake of fire. Death will be no more. Open your eyes. This is telling you there will be NO MORE DYING. Every soul that ever lived will live eternally. NO ONE WILL DIE EVER AGAIN. Jesus will have won the final victory, which is over death. Death will never again claim anyone. You are ignoring the obvious.
You constantly quote OT verses to support your views, which is okay to a point, but you forget that the OT gave us shadows of what would later become crystal clear under the NT.
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Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
Jesus was a Jew who spoke Hebrew and Aramaic.
You need to go back to his original language...not the language of the greeks. However, the jews who translated the hebrew scriptures into greek, known as the Greek Septuagint, uses the word “Hades” 60 times to translate the Hebrew word Sheol. So to a hebrew speaking person as Jesus was, hades meant the grave.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
No I don't need to go back to the language Jesus spoke. The NT was written in Greek, inspired by the Holy Spirit, and that is what I go by. You can continue to live according to the OT if you choose, but I will live according to the law of Christ, which is the NT.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
Your understanding of the timing is wrong.
Peter is referencing that Jesus returned to the same spirit bodied state he had before he was born in the flesh.
It was then, before Jesus was born in the flesh, before he had surrendered that state to take on the likeness of man, that Jesus preached to those spirits.
The errors in the way some translate that verse do not alter that fact.
Nor does Pegg not understanding the verse alter that fact.
The simple fact is that Peter makes that allusion so as to set up what he speaks about in remaining verses of that chapter concerning the comparison to Noah's day.
Those are elementary presentation skills he is exhibiting. You should have no problem seeing that.
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djhwoodwerks
Well-Known Member
I think you like to sound educated, so you make everything sound more complicated than it is.
1Pe 3:18-19 (ESVST) , being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison.
How on earth do you get that Peter is referring to a time before Jesus even came to earth from this verse?
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
I was going to ask the same. You beat me to it. I can't figure out how he comes to such a conclusion.
Context:
1. Jesus died
2. He's made alive in the spirit
3. He preaches to the spirits in prison
And MC thinks we are mistranslating? Oh my!
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Kolibri
Well-Known Member
'returned to the same spirit bodied state he had before he was born in the flesh.'
You are misreading MC's statement. He did not say this occurred before Jesus was born, but that Jesus has a body not made of flesh (again) when this happens.
Only this is not exactly the same state. The body Jesus had before was mortal. The one he has after being returned to spirit life is indestructible.
You are misreading MC's statement. He did not say this occurred before Jesus was born, but that Jesus has a body not made of flesh (again) when this happens.
Only this is not exactly the same state. The body Jesus had before was mortal. The one he has after being returned to spirit life is indestructible.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
You are miss translating.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
No, I mean he preached to them before he ever became flesh.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
And it is simple putting the right things together into the following verse with what was said in that verse, for:
This time Peter speaks of his having done that preaching is, "when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing.."
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
Another school of though makes this preaching after he was made alive in the spirit at his baptism and when he was seen to cast out the demons who plead with him as to whether it was their time, Matthew 8:29
However, that is not what preaching is. Preaching is to warn the wicked from his way. And that does no good after one has suffered the consequences of sinning.
However, I did show in one of my past posts that Jesus was clearly made alive or quickened in the spirit long before his death.
See my post # 3070
However, that is not what preaching is. Preaching is to warn the wicked from his way. And that does no good after one has suffered the consequences of sinning.
However, I did show in one of my past posts that Jesus was clearly made alive or quickened in the spirit long before his death.
See my post # 3070
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Kolibri
Well-Known Member
then i did misunderstand you.