Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??

[katiemygirl]

Now, that is curious indeed.

I see I am not the only one that perceives the time of that preaching to have been during the time of Noah as determined by context. However, Pegg makes a good point about 2: Peter 2:4. I will have to ponder that a bit further to see if I can find that connection in the context.

I think the point the commentator makes is that the preaching had already been done while those disobedient people of Noah's day were alive. Those disobedient people were in prison when Peter was writing. Peter is not saying that Jesus preached to them after they were dead. He is saying Jesus (our triune GOD) preached to them while they were alive. Remember, all TRUE preaching is done through the Holy Spirit, and in this case, the Holy Spirit was preaching through Noah. I had to read his comments a few times to really get what he was saying. He makes sense.

See my post to Pegg. She is trying to use 2 Peter 2:4 to prove that the spirits in prison are angels. But if you read the entire passage, those in prison are those who are disobedient, including the angels. Pegg has an agenda. She doesn't believe people have spirits. Yet, the Scriptures I posted to her say the opposite.

 

[katiemygirl]

Katie, look at 2 Peter 2:4

It tells us who the spirits are.

Looking at the entire passage, the spirits in prison are ALL those who were disobedient. They would include the angels, ungodly people, the unrighteous, the lawless, and those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell (tartarus), putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.

EDIT: Take note the Greek word in 2:4 is "tartarus."

Notice: He is holding the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgement. Where is He holding them? HADES! That is exactly what Hades is. It is a temporary holding place for both the good and the bad. It is divided into two sections, paradise and tartarus, which are separated by a great chasm. Have you done your research yet? Will you? Or are you afraid of what you might learn? Or maybe you are content to just teach falsely as you await your GB to give you brighter light?

I'm wondering if you believe this passage is to be taken figuratively or literally?

 

[JFish123]

You do understand the Greek word pro·sky·neʹo, don't you JFish? We have altered nothing, just increased our understanding over time as we continue to mine the Bible for the gems yet to be revealed.

"The Greek pro·sky·neʹo corresponds closely to the Hebrew hish·ta·chawahʹ as to conveying the thought of both obeisance to creatures and worship to God or a deity. The manner of expressing the obeisance is perhaps not so prominent in pro·sky·neʹo as in hish·ta·chawahʹ, where the Hebrew term graphically conveys the thought of prostration or bowing down. Scholars derive the Greek term from the verb ky·neʹo, “kiss.” The usage of the word in the Christian Greek Scriptures (as also in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures) shows that persons to whose actions the term is applied prostrated themselves or bowed down.—Mt 2:11; 18:26; 28:9.

As with the Hebrew term, the context must be considered to determine whether pro·sky·neʹo refers to obeisance solely in the form of deep respect or obeisance in the form of religious worship. Where reference is directly to God (Joh 4:20-24;1Co 14:25; Re 4:10) or to false gods and their idols (Ac 7:43; Re 9:20), it is evident that the obeisance goes beyond that acceptably or customarily rendered to men and enters the field of worship. So, too, where the object of the obeisance is left unstated, its being directed to God is understood. (Joh 12:20;Ac 8:27; 24:11; Heb 11:21; Re 11:1) On the other hand, the action of those of “the synagogue of Satan” who are made to “come and do obeisance” before the feet of Christians is clearly not worship.—Re 3:9.

Obeisance to a human king is found in Jesus’ illustration at Matthew 18:26. It is evident that this was the kind of obeisance that the astrologers rendered to the child Jesus, “born king of the Jews,” that Herod professed interest in expressing, and that the soldiers mockingly rendered to Jesus before his impalement. They clearly did not view Jesus as God or as a deity. (Mt 2:2, 8; Mr 15:19) While some translators use the word “worship” in the majority of cases where pro·sky·neʹo describes persons’ actions toward Jesus, the evidence does not warrant one’s reading too much into this rendering. Rather, the circumstances that evoked the obeisance correspond very closely to those producing obeisance to the earlier prophets and kings. (Compare Mt 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; 20:20 with 1Sa 25:23, 24;2Sa 14:4-7; 1Ki 1:16; 2Ki 4:36, 37.) The very expressions of those involved often reveal that, while they clearly recognized Jesus as God’s representative, they rendered obeisance to him, not as to God or a deity, but as “God’s Son,” the foretold “Son of man,” the Messiah with divine authority. On many occasions their obeisance expressed a gratitude for divine revelation or evidence of favor like that expressed in earlier times.—Mt 14:32, 33; 28:5-10, 16-18; Lu 24:50-52; Joh 9:35, 38."

Obeisance — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Jesus did not once accept or demand worship, but directed all worship to his Father "alone" . (Luke 4:8) Why would he accept worship when he was not God? He identified the Father as the "only true God" and then identified himself as "the one he sent forth". (John 17:3)

Even up until fairly recent decades, judges in the English justice system were addressed as "Your Worship". Do you think that people thought they were gods? Or was it that these ones rightly expected to be treated with the respect their position warranted?

I believe it is you who need "training" in the languages of the Bible.

The fact is Jesus Christ was worshipped as God (proskuneo) many times according to the gospel accounts - and HE ALWAYS ACCEPTED SUCH WORSHIP AS APPROPRIATE.
Jesus accepted worship from Thomas (John 20:28). All the angels are told to worship Jesus (Hebrews 1:6). The wise men worshipped Jesus (Matthew 2:11). A leper worshipped Him (Matthew 8:2). A ruler bowed before him in worship (Matthew 9:18). A blind man worshipped Him (John 9:38). A woman worshipped Him (Matthew 15:35). Mary Magdalene worshipped Him (Matthew 28:9), and the disciples worshipped Him (Matthew 38:17).
Related to this, it is significant that when Paul and Barnabas were in Lystra and miraculously healed a man by Gods power those in the crowd shouted, "the gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!" (Acts 14:11) When Paul and Barnabas perceived that the people were preparing to worship them, "they tore there garments and rushed out into the crowd, crying out, "Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men, of like nature with you." By contrast Jesus NEVER sought to correct His followers or set them straight when they bowed down to worship Him. Indeed, He considered such worship as perfectly appropriate.
In Revelation the Father and Son are clearly receiving the same worship. Revelation 4:10 where the Father is worshipped and Revelation 5:11-14 where we see all if heaven worshipping the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ.
Now, why did the Watchtower in its 1961 edition of the NWT render Hebrews to say we should Worship Jesus, while the 1971 edition say we should merely do obeisance to Him? What does this major change say about the Watchtower Society's claim about being a true prophet of God?
I invite you to Revelation 22:8-9 in your own Kingdom Linear Translation, where the same word (proskuneo) is used in the original Greek. There the Apostle John says, "I fell down to worship (root: proskuneo) before the feet of the angel... But he tells me: 'be careful! Do not do not do that!... Worship (root: proskuneo) God." The angel refused (proskuneo) worship and told John to give that worship (proskuneo) to God alone. That is the same proskuneo the Father commanded to be given to His Son Jesus at Hebrews 1:6. So, the Son is certainly NOT an angel.

The word "proskuneo" means "to kiss the hand, bow down before, show obeisance, to worship." Since the Jehovah's Witnesses deny that Jesus is God, they maintain that He is not to be worshipped. So, how does the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society translate the word "proskuneo" in their Greek New Testament in reference to Jesus and other objects of adoration? The NWT never translates the word into "worship" when it references Jesus. It does, however, render the word as "worship" regarding the devil, the dragon, the beast, the image, demons, idols, and an angel. Of course, they correctly translate it as "worship" when it deals with God.

Is the New World Translation biased against worshipping Jesus? It would surely seem so and especially since the NASB, NIV, KJV, NKJV, etc., all translate the word as "worship" in reference to Jesus.

What is curious is to note that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society used to teach that worshipping Jesus was acceptable:

"The fact that our Lord received worship is claimed by some to be an evidence that while on earth he was God the Father disguised in a body of flesh and not really a man. Was he really worshiped, or is the translation faulty? Yes we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshiped, and properly so. While he was not the God, Jehovah, he was a God. The word ‘God’ signifies a ‘mighty one,’ and our Lord was indeed a mighty one. So it is stated in the first two verses of the gospel of John. It was proper for our Lord to receive worship in view of his having been the only begotten of the Father. . ." (The Watchtower, July 15, 1898, p. 216).

"It is undoubtedly proper enough for us to address petitions to our Redeemer and Advocate, who loved us and gave himself for us....Although we are nowhere instructed to make petitions to him, it evidently could not be improper so to do; for such a course is nowhere prohibited, and the disciples worshiped him." Zion's Watch Tower 1892 May 15 p.157
"Question. The fact that our Lord received worship is claimed by some to be an evidence that while on earth he was God the Father disguised in a body of flesh and not really a man. Was he really worshiped, or is the translation faulty? Answer. Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshiped, and properly so. It was proper for our Lord to receive worship in view of his having been the only begotten of the Father and his agent in the creation of all things, including man." Zion's Watch Tower 1898 Jul 15 p.216
"In one respect many of Christendom could learn numerous important lessons from these wise Gentiles....They worshiped him in three senses of the word: (1) They fell before him, prostrated themselves, thus physically expressing their reverence. (2) They worshiped him in their hearts and with the tongue gave expression to their rejoicing and confidence. (3) They opened their treasure-box and presented to him three gifts appropriate to royalty: the myrrh representing submission, frankincense representing praise, gold representing obedience." Zion's Watch Tower 1906 Jan 1 p.15
Rutherford continued this teaching.

"Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah's purpose (Heb.:3-6)." Watchtower 1939 Nov 15 p.339
"During the Millennium, "the princes will lead the people in their worship of Jehovah and of Christ." Vindication Volume 3 (J. F. Rutherford, 1932) p.295
"The people of all nations who obtain salvation must come to the house of the Lord to worship there; that is to say, they must believe on and worship Jehovah God and the Lord Jesus Christ, his chief instrument (Philippians 2:10, 11)." Salvation (J. F. Rutherford, 1939) p.151
Knorr continued to teach we should worship Jesus and the 1940's Watchtower articles still stated that Jesus was to be worshipped.

"Now, at Christ's coming to reign as king in Jehovah's capital organization Zion, to bring in a righteous new world, Jehovah makes him infinitely higher than the godly angels or messengers and accordingly commands them to worship him. Since Jehovah God now reigns as King by means of his capital organization Zion, then whosoever would worship Him must also worship and bow down to Jehovah's Chief One in that capital organization, namely, Christ Jesus, his Co-regent on the throne of The Theocracy." Watchtower 1945 Oct 15 p.313

It seems that as the Watchtower theology changed, they needed a Bible consistent with those changes, hence, the New World Translation. Let's see if the bias of the Watchtower organization is obvious.

The word "proskuneo" occurs 55 times in the Watchtower Kingdom Interlinear. Of those 55, 15 are in reference to Jesus with 40 used of others, 27% of the usage is of Jesus, and not a single reference is translated as "worship" even though in reference to the devil, demons, idols, etc., they do translate it as worship. If this doesn't demonstrate their bias, then what does?

 

[JFish123]

All the time the Watchtower told us to Worship Jesus:
Russell taught that we should worship Jesus and the initial Watchtower Charter's specified that establishment of the Watchtower Society was to promote the worship of Jehovah and Jesus. Yet since the 1950's, worshipping Jesus became regarded as wrongful idolatry.

Russell promoted the worship of Jesus and prayer to him because he is our God.

"It seems clear that His Divinity was retained in humanity because He repeatedly spoke of Himself as having come down from heaven, and because He, though passing through trial and sorrow as a man, was yet possessed of the authority and exercised the prerogatives of a God. He was the object of unreproved worship even when a babe, by the wise men who came to see the new-born King. Matt. 2:2-11. Even the angels delighted to do Him honor. "When He bringeth the first-begotten into the world, He saith, "And let all the angels of God worship Him." Heb. 1:6. He never reproved any one for acts of worship offered to Himself, but when Cornelius offered such service to Peter--the leading apostle-- "he took him up, saying, stand up; I myself also am a man." .... Had Christ not been more than a man the same reason would have prevented from receiving worship...." Zion's Watch Tower 1880 Oct pp.2-3
"It is undoubtedly proper enough for us to address petitions to our Redeemer and Advocate, who loved us and gave himself for us....Although we are nowhere instructed to make petitions to him, it evidently could not be improper so to do; for such a course is nowhere prohibited, and the disciples worshiped him." Zion's Watch Tower 1892 May 15 p.157
"Question. The fact that our Lord received worship is claimed by some to be an evidence that while on earth he was God the Father disguised in a body of flesh and not really a man. Was he really worshiped, or is the translation faulty? Answer. Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshiped, and properly so. It was proper for our Lord to receive worship in view of his having been the only begotten of the Father and his agent in the creation of all things, including man." Zion's Watch Tower 1898 Jul 15 p.216
"In one respect many of Christendom could learn numerous important lessons from these wise Gentiles....They worshiped him in three senses of the word: (1) They fell before him, prostrated themselves, thus physically expressing their reverence. (2) They worshiped him in their hearts and with the tongue gave expression to their rejoicing and confidence. (3) They opened their treasure-box and presented to him three gifts appropriate to royalty: the myrrh representing submission, frankincense representing praise, gold representing obedience." Zion's Watch Tower 1906 Jan 1 p.15
Rutherford continued this teaching.

"Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah's purpose (Heb.:3-6)." Watchtower 1939 Nov 15 p.339
"During the Millennium, "the princes will lead the people in their worship of Jehovah and of Christ." Vindication Volume 3 (J. F. Rutherford, 1932) p.295
"The people of all nations who obtain salvation must come to the house of the Lord to worship there; that is to say, they must believe on and worship Jehovah God and the Lord Jesus Christ, his chief instrument (Philippians 2:10, 11)." Salvation (J. F. Rutherford, 1939) p.151
Knorr continued to teach we should worship Jesus and the 1940's Watchtower articles still stated that Jesus was to be worshipped.

"Now, at Christ's coming to reign as king in Jehovah's capital organization Zion, to bring in a righteous new world, Jehovah makes him infinitely higher than the godly angels or messengers and accordingly commands them to worship him. Since Jehovah God now reigns as King by means of his capital organization Zion, then whosoever would worship Him must also worship and bow down to Jehovah's Chief One in that capital organization, namely, Christ Jesus, his Co-regent on the throne of The Theocracy." Watchtower 1945 Oct 15 p.313
In 1945, Knorr amended the Watchtower's legal Charter. Included within the Charter was the statement that the purpose of the Watchtower Society is to promote the worship of Jehovah and Jesus.

The 1945 Yearbook includes the Charter in full. Part of the current charter states as follows:
"...maintain and send out to various parts of the world Christian missionaries, teachers and instructors in the Bible and Bible literature and for public Christian worship of Almighty God AND Christ Jesus; to arrange for and hold local and world-wide assemblies for such worship to use or operate radio broadcasting stations for preaching this gospel of the kingdom; and to do any and all other lawful things that its Board of Directors shall deem expedient for the purposes stated."

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Looking at the entire passage, the spirits in prison are ALL those who were disobedient. They would include the angels, ungodly people, the unrighteous, the lawless, and those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell (tartarus), putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.

EDIT: Take note the Greek word in 2:4 is "tartarus."

Notice: He is holding the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgement. Where is He holding them? HADES! That is exactly what Hades is. It is a temporary holding place for both the good and the bad. It is divided into two sections, paradise and tartarus, which are separated by a great chasm. Have you done your research yet? Will you? Or are you afraid of what you might learn? Or maybe you are content to just teach falsely as you await your GB to give you brighter light?

I'm wondering if you believe this passage is to be taken figuratively or literally?

Yes, I now do see that there is a great potential for that being a symbolic prison; A place wherein all are held captive to the coming judgement.

That clarifies much! Just as Hades or Sheol is the place of those who are remembered for life.

In the Hebrew, "the lowest Sheol" would correspond to Tartarus, whereas Sheol would correspond to Hades.

 

[katiemygirl]

Yes, I now do see that there is a great potential for that being a symbolic prison; A place wherein all are held captive to the coming judgement.

That clarifies much!

Why symbolic? What about 2 Peter 2:4-9 makes you say that?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

What is the difference? I believe them both to be accurate. But I guess one is done in the name of Jehovah, which justifies it.


*** g73 1/8 p. 3 Are You Learning to Think Clearly? ***
What has resulted to many persons because they allowed others to do their thinking for them? Millions have died or been maimed, often fighting wars on foreign soil over issues they did not understand. And now we see that the world’s pattern of thinking, and the efforts it has produced, have brought no lasting peace. In fact, the world is armed with far more devastating weapons today than it ever had before.



*** g73 1/8 p. 3 Are You Learning to Think Clearly? ***
What has resulted to many persons because they allowed others to do their thinking for them? Millions have died or been maimed, often from not accepting Watchtower teachings or from rejecting vaccinations and blood transfusions. And now we see that the Watchtowers pattern of thinking, and the efforts it has produced, have brought no lasting peace. In fact, the Watchtower is armed with far more devastating weapons today than it ever had before. (my editing)

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Why symbolic? What about 2 Peter 2:4-9 makes you say that?

We know that those fallen angels are free to roam the earth at this present time. Their activity is reported upon in the scriptures regarding that and how they control people and nations.

Therefore this has to be a symbolic place wherein these ones are being reserved unto judgment.

 

[Pegg]

Are you saying that man does not have a spirit, soul and body?

I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:23)


For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow (body), and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart (Hebrews 4:12).

You've got some explaining to do about what these verses say. They seem to disagree with you.

Thats what i'm saying.

Spirit is the breath/lifeforce within us.
Soul is the living body.

The spirit we project must be blameless according to 1Thess5:23. Our spirit refers to our thoughts, intentions, inclinationa, heart, character, motives etc. Have you never heard the expression "He is in high spirits today" or what about the scripture which says "Jesus spirit was sorely troubled" or have you seen a 'high spirited horse'? They are more lively and energetic then a horse with 'low spirits'

When we die, the scriptures say our spirit goes out and our thoughts cease thus showing the spirit is not a conscious.
Ps 146:4 His spirit* goes out, he returns to the ground;
On that very day his thoughts perish

 

[Pegg]

Looking at the entire passage, the spirits in prison are ALL those who were disobedient. They would include the angels, ungodly people, the unrighteous, the lawless, and those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.

If we read the scriptures about the death of humans and accept them, then we cannot accept that the 'spirits in prison' refer to humans.

Also, the verse in Peter doesnt say 'all are in tartarus'.
In verse 4 its says the angels 'in the days of Noah' were sent to tartarus. They are 'put in chains of darkness to be held for judgement'
But it doesnt say the ungodly people were put into tartarus. It says 'he did not spare the ancient world when he brought a flood on its UNGODLY PEOPLE'
And if the angels were put into tartarus until the day of judgement, then it stands to reason that they are still alive there. But nowhere does it say that the ungodly people were put there to await judgement.... they got their judgement by flood.

The people of Sodom and Gomorah were not among the 'ancient world when he brought a flood. They lived long after the ancient world of Noahs day. So Peter is not saying what you think he's saying.
Next he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly
The ungodly of Sodom and Gomorrah became a pile of ashes. They were not reserved in Tartarus as the angels were, they had their judgement already.

Notice: He is holding the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgement. Where is He holding them? HADES! That is exactly what Hades is. It is a temporary holding place for both the good and the bad. It is divided into two sections, paradise and tartarus, which are separated by a great chasm. Have you done your research yet? Will you? Or are you afraid of what you might learn? Or maybe you are content to just teach falsely as you await your GB to give you brighter light?

I'm wondering if you believe this passage is to be taken figuratively or literally?

I believe the passage is only speaking of angels who sinned...not humans. And I dont believe Tartarus is a literal place.
Jude also speaks of the imprisoned angels and he only mentions the angels being there:

Jude 6: “And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.”

Tartarus can only be a condition of the mind. It is not a literal holding prison. We know that the fallen angels and satan are the rulers of this world. So they are very much among us. If they were in a holding cell unable to get out, then we probably wouldnt have most of the troubles we have on earth.
Look at Ephesians 6:10-12 Put on the complete suit of armor+ from God so that you may be able to stand firm against the crafty acts* of the Devil; 12 because we have a struggle,*+ not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces+ in the heavenly places.

And consider who approached Jesus when he was on earth....didnt the devil himself try to tempt Jesus? Yes. And what about all the accounts about the demons possessing people? The demons were very active in Jesus day.
They are not 'locked away'...they are very much here on earth..

 

[JayJayDee]

The fact is Jesus Christ was worshipped as God (proskuneo) many times according to the gospel accounts - and HE ALWAYS ACCEPTED SUCH WORSHIP AS APPROPRIATE.
Jesus accepted worship from Thomas (John 20:28). All the angels are told to worship Jesus (Hebrews 1:6). The wise men worshipped Jesus (Matthew 2:11). A leper worshipped Him (Matthew 8:2). A ruler bowed before him in worship (Matthew 9:18). A blind man worshipped Him (John 9:38). A woman worshipped Him (Matthew 15:35). Mary Magdalene worshipped Him (Matthew 28:9), and the disciples worshipped Him (Matthew 38:17).

None of those accounts are the kind of worship given to Almighty God. It was obedience, given to the son of God. Without the trinity, this word never meant what Christendom forced it to say with reference to Jesus.

Related to this, it is significant that when Paul and Barnabas were in Lystra and miraculously healed a man by Gods power those in the crowd shouted, "the gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!" (Acts 14:11) When Paul and Barnabas perceived that the people were preparing to worship them, "they tore there garments and rushed out into the crowd, crying out, "Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men, of like nature with you." By contrast Jesus NEVER sought to correct His followers or set them straight when they bowed down to worship Him. Indeed, He considered such worship as perfectly appropriate.

This is the difference between honor or worship that is rightly given because of a person's position, and undue reverence given to those to whom it does not belong. Clearly it did not belong to Paul and Barnabas.
As the son of God, Jesus rightly commanded respectful obeisance. But nowhere did he ever instruct any of his disciples to worship him. ALL worship was directed to his God and Father, the "only true God". (John 17:3)

In Revelation the Father and Son are clearly receiving the same worship. Revelation 4:10 where the Father is worshipped and Revelation 5:11-14 where we see all if heaven worshipping the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ.

Worship was given to the Father in this scripture...not to the Lamb. Read these accounts again in context of the whole chapters and see that no worship is given to the lamb. The Lamb is given "power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”....but not worship.

Now, why did the Watchtower in its 1961 edition of the NWT render Hebrews to say we should Worship Jesus, while the 1971 edition say we should merely do obeisance to Him? What does this major change say about the Watchtower Society's claim about being a true prophet of God?

We have never claimed to be prophets. What we publicise is the Bible's prophesies and what we believe regarding them.
Because things become clearer as Jehovah's day draws nearer, there have at times been adjustments in our thinking. We expect this, yet people like you constantly bring these things up as if it is wrong. (Prov 4:18) What would be wrong is to find out that something is misunderstood in part and to cling to it regardless.

I invite you to Revelation 22:8-9 in your own Kingdom Linear Translation, where the same word (proskuneo) is used in the original Greek. There the Apostle John says, "I fell down to worship (root: proskuneo) before the feet of the angel... But he tells me: 'be careful! Do not do not do that!... Worship (root: proskuneo) God." The angel refused (proskuneo) worship and told John to give that worship (proskuneo) to God alone. That is the same proskuneo the Father commanded to be given to His Son Jesus at Hebrews 1:6. So, the Son is certainly NOT an angel.

If you want to examine the original meanings of words used in the scriptures, then be consistent. Those to whom "proskenyo" is given, must be in a position to qualify for it. What is the qualification in each instance?

Jesus certainly qualified for proskenyo to be rendered to him but the angel in John's case was a servant and rejected it. The same word has different meanings, so we have to understand that context determines the meaning. Trinitarians wish to attach a meaning to the word that the Bible writers never meant. No Bible writer says that Jesus is Almighty God.

The word "proskuneo" means "to kiss the hand, bow down before, show obeisance, to worship." Since the Jehovah's Witnesses deny that Jesus is God, they maintain that He is not to be worshipped. So, how does the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society translate the word "proskuneo" in their Greek New Testament in reference to Jesus and other objects of adoration? The NWT never translates the word into "worship" when it references Jesus. It does, however, render the word as "worship" regarding the devil, the dragon, the beast, the image, demons, idols, and an angel. Of course, they correctly translate it as "worship" when it deals with God.

Yes, because context determines how the word is understood in any given situation.

The magi did not "worship" Jesus as God, but rendered obeisance to him as royalty...the future "king of the Jews".

Is the New World Translation biased against worshipping Jesus? It would surely seem so and especially since the NASB, NIV, KJV, NKJV, etc., all translate the word as "worship" in reference to Jesus.

Bible translations that promote the trinity will translate the word according to their own beliefs. How do you accuse us of bias when Christendom does exactly the same thing?

What is curious is to note that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society used to teach that worshipping Jesus was acceptable.......

It seems that as the Watchtower theology changed, they needed a Bible consistent with those changes, hence, the New World Translation. Let's see if the bias of the Watchtower organization is obvious.

Again you quote old stuff that is ancient history to us. The Watchtower is like a newspaper, not a Bible. You act like we regard it as scripture...it isn't. It claims no infallibility, but simply reports the news as it stands today. Updates are constantly printed as clarifications become available. We don't care about old news any more than people reading a newspaper from 60 years ago view it as relevant for today. What is important is the here and now. We don't live in the past. We anticipate the future with much interest and when adjustments are made, we examine the evidence for it ourselves and compare it with the scriptures. We don't just read the Bible...we study it very deeply.

The word "proskuneo" occurs 55 times in the Watchtower Kingdom Interlinear. Of those 55, 15 are in reference to Jesus with 40 used of others, 27% of the usage is of Jesus, and not a single reference is translated as "worship" even though in reference to the devil, demons, idols, etc., they do translate it as worship. If this doesn't demonstrate their bias, then what does?

It isn't bias, but the exercise of knowledge. It is not used as "worship" (the like of which is given to the Father "only". Luke 4:8) with regard to Jesus in one single instance. Context determines the way it is rendered because it is the same word.

As I mentioned, our legal system had judges addressed as "Your Worship" for decades. Is that an acknowledgement of their deity or the position of authority that is bestowed upon someone in that position? Does the person warrant that title if he holds no such position?

There are perfectly good reasons for what we believe that are more sound and in agreement with the Bible in its entirety than you are aware of because you have been taught Christendom's version of things as the only truth. It is a house of cards. I have been on both sides of this fence and there is no way that I could return to Christendom and the lies that it passes off as truth.

You are welcome to believe whatever you like.

 

[JFish123]

None of those accounts are the kind of worship given to Almighty God. It was obedience, given to the son of God. Without the trinity, this word never meant what Christendom forced it to say with reference to Jesus.



This is the difference between honor or worship that is rightly given because of a person's position, and undue reverence given to those to whom it does not belong. Clearly it did not belong to Paul and Barnabas.
As the son of God, Jesus rightly commanded respectful obeisance. But nowhere did he ever instruct any of his disciples to worship him. ALL worship was directed to his God and Father, the "only true God". (John 17:3)



Worship was given to the Father in this scripture...not to the Lamb. Read these accounts again in context of the whole chapters and see that no worship is given to the lamb. The Lamb is given "power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”....but not worship.



We have never claimed to be prophets. What we publicise is the Bible's prophesies and what we believe regarding them.
Because things become clearer as Jehovah's day draws nearer, there have at times been adjustments in our thinking. We expect this, yet people like you constantly bring these things up as if it is wrong. (Prov 4:18) What would be wrong is to find out that something is misunderstood in part and to cling to it regardless.



If you want to examine the original meanings of words used in the scriptures, then be consistent. Those to whom "proskenyo" is given, must be in a position to qualify for it. What is the qualification in each instance?

Jesus certainly qualified for proskenyo to be rendered to him but the angel in John's case was a servant and rejected it. The same word has different meanings, so we have to understand that context determines the meaning. Trinitarians wish to attach a meaning to the word that the Bible writers never meant. No Bible writer says that Jesus is Almighty God.



Yes, because context determines how the word is understood in any given situation.

The magi did not "worship" Jesus as God, but rendered obeisance to him as royalty...the future "king of the Jews".



Bible translations that promote the trinity will translate the word according to their own beliefs. How do you accuse us of bias when Christendom does exactly the same thing?



Again you quote old stuff that is ancient history to us. The Watchtower is like a newspaper, not a Bible. You act like we regard it as scripture...it isn't. It claims no infallibility, but simply reports the news as it stands today. Updates are constantly printed as clarifications become available. We don't care about old news any more than people reading a newspaper from 60 years ago view it as relevant for today. What is important is the here and now. We don't live in the past. We anticipate the future with much interest and when adjustments are made, we examine the evidence for it ourselves and compare it with the scriptures. We don't just read the Bible...we study it very deeply.



It isn't bias, but the exercise of knowledge. It is not used as "worship" (the like of which is given to the Father "only". Luke 4:8) with regard to Jesus in one single instance. Context determines the way it is rendered because it is the same word.

As I mentioned, our legal system had judges addressed as "Your Worship" for decades. Is that an acknowledgement of their deity or the position of authority that is bestowed upon someone in that position? Does the person warrant that title if he holds no such position?

There are perfectly good reasons for what we believe that are more sound and in agreement with the Bible in its entirety than you are aware of because you have been taught Christendom's version of things as the only truth. It is a house of cards. I have been on both sides of this fence and there is no way that I could return to Christendom and the lies that it passes off as truth.

You are welcome to believe whatever you like.

You claim Christendom has bias yet not the NWT? Even given the evidence. And really? The Watchtower doesn't attach meaning to things that the writers never intended? I showed you a clear example out of many more. But hopefully you'll discover the truth about the Watchtower I can only pray. Whatever caused you to dislike Christendom so much and whatever sweet words the Watchtower told you, hopefully you'll understand one day before it's too late. I really pray you do...

 

[Kolibri]

What is the attitude of people in general towards your faith? This is a rhetorical question to each of us. Are we hated? Is our faith so offensive that some want to take God's matters into their own hands and exterminate the offense? If this is not the case, then perhaps we should ask ourselves "what is wrong with this picture?".

"Men will expel you from the synagogue. In fact, the hour is coming when everyone who kills you will think he has offered a sacred service to God."
- John 16:2

"Then people will hand you over to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be hated by all the nations on account of my name."
- Matthew 24:9

"In fact, all those desiring to live with godly devotion in association with Christ Jesus will also be persecuted."
- 2 Timothy 3:12

After 164 pages of this thread, is there evidence that this is an act of love or an act of hatred?

Are we so righteously indignant that we cannot follow Gamaliel's advice?

"So under the present circumstances, I say to you, do not meddle with these men, but let them alone. For if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; but if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them. Otherwise, you may even be found fighters against God himself."
- Acts 5:38,39

 

[JFish123]

What is the attitude of people in general towards your faith? This is a rhetorical question to each of us. Are we hated? Is our faith so offensive that some want to take God's matters into their own hands and exterminate the offense? If this is not the case, then perhaps we should ask ourselves "what is wrong with this picture?".

"Men will expel you from the synagogue. In fact, the hour is coming when everyone who kills you will think he has offered a sacred service to God."
- John 16:2

"Then people will hand you over to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be hated by all the nations on account of my name."
- Matthew 24:9

"In fact, all those desiring to live with godly devotion in association with Christ Jesus will also be persecuted."
- 2 Timothy 3:12

After 164 pages of this thread, is there evidence that this is an act of love or an act of hatred?

Are we so righteously indignant that we cannot follow Gamaliel's advice?

"So under the present circumstances, I say to you, do not meddle with these men, but let them alone. For if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; but if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them. Otherwise, you may even be found fighters against God himself."
- Acts 5:38,39

I agree we should do it in love though like any debate things can always get a bit heated. But when an organization distorts biblical truth and even worse teaches others to do the same, we are commanded to correct with true biblical teaching otherwise those same people will be forever lost in hell, even if they believe it doesn't exist which is part of the issue.

 

[Kolibri]

I agree we should do it in love though like any debate things can always get a bit heated. But when an organization distorts biblical truth and even worse teaches others to do the same, we are commanded to correct with true biblical teaching otherwise those same people will be forever lost in hell, even if they believe it doesn't exist which is part of the issue.

If it was any other organization, would this be done with as much fervor? Do we really have the time to be so focused on one cause besides "preaching the good news"? (2 Timothy 4:2-5)

To myself personally, the amount of dedication to proving this organization wrong is one thread of evidence that they may be doing something right.

 

[JFish123]

If it was any other organization, would this be done with as much fervor? Do we really have the time to be so focused on one cause besides "preaching the good news"? (2 Timothy 4:2-5)

Yes it would. Why wouldn't you do it with fervor when someones beliefs are dragging them in error to the gates of hell? Preaching the good news doesn't mean just telling people there sinners in need of a savior but correcting false doctrine as well. Paul and the apostles were warning believers about false teachers and correcting false teachers constantly throughout most of the New Testament.

 

[JayJayDee]

But hopefully you'll discover the truth about the Watchtower I can only pray. Whatever caused you to dislike Christendom so much and whatever sweet words the Watchtower told you, hopefully you'll understand one day before it's too late. I really pray you do...

Thank you for your concern, but it is misplaced.

What can you possibly show me about JW's that I haven't seen a hundred times before? It's rubbish, put out by those who do not want others to know the truth. I left the church over 40 years ago. Nothing would make me go back. Too many unanswered questions. Too many additions from paganism.

What I saw firsthand in the churches (A few of them because I was looking for the ones who actually practiced what they preached...none of them did) made me realise that Christendom is clueless about what the Bible actually teaches.
I asked someone once to explain the Lord's Prayer to me because we parroted it off in church every week, but I had no idea what I was supposed to be praying for. He gave me some silly explanation and said I should just accept it as the words of the Lord.

Do you know what really got me? When Jesus said "hallowed be thy name", I never knew that God had a name that wasn't Jesus. When the Witnesses showed me God's name at Psalm 83:18 in my old KJV, I was astonished because I had never heard it ever mentioned in church. And no one had ever shown me God's name in my Bible.

A two year study answered every question I had. I insisted on studying my KJV. There was no NWT at that time.

All I can say is, you have been listening to the wrong people.

Please remember that the entire nation of Israel rejected Jesus as Messiah on the words of their hypocritical religious leaders. Do you really think that they believed that Jesus was anything but a fake Messiah? The few individuals that did respond to his teachings were blessed beyond words, yet they were hated and persecuted for doing what Jesus commanded them to do. (John 15:18-21; Matt 10:11-15) What does the word "search" imply to you in this passage from Matthew? How much "searching" for "worthy ones" does Christendom actually do? All I ever saw them do was preach to the converted and ask for money so that they could pay the minister. What happened to "you received free, give free"?

It is not the Watchtower that you have a problem with because the Watchtower is only a Bible Society dedicated to the printing and distribution of vast amounts of Bibles and Bible literature which is offered personally by Jehovah's Witnesses without cost, to every household in the "entire inhabited earth" where they preach. This is the work prophesied by Jesus to take place right up till the end of the present system of things. (Matt 24:14; 28:19, 20; Acts 5:42; 20:20)
I don't see any of the churches in any place I have lived, that carries out Jesus' instructions to preach the good news about his kingdom....do you? They don't even know what God's Kingdom is, let alone what it means for the earth and everything on it.

JW's are nothing like what our detractors want people to believe. But how would you know when you only have one side of the story? Learn the lesson that Jesus taught the Jews....popular opinion is not always a good guide. (Matt 27:24-26)

In a world ruled by the devil....nothing is as it seems.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

I don't see any of the churches in any place I have lived, that carries out Jesus' instructions to preach the good news about his kingdom....do you? They don't even know what God's Kingdom is, let alone what it means for the earth and everything on it.

All I ever hear JW's say is, "we're the only ones who preach the good news of the Kingdom, no one else does, just us." Unless I missed the post, not one of you has said what the "TRUTH" is. What is the "GOOD NEWS" of the Kingdom? What am I missing?

 

[Mountain_Climber]

If it was any other organization, would this be done with as much fervor? Do we really have the time to be so focused on one cause besides "preaching the good news"? (2 Timothy 4:2-5)

To myself personally, the amount of dedication to proving this organization wrong is one thread of evidence that they may be doing something right.

While I agree with your comment here, you surely have to realize that much of that hatred is the reciprocal of the message of condemnation towards false teachings that has been necessary over the years. That was indeed like that tormenting plague of locusts in the prophecy of Joel and no doubt the bitter part of the message John felt in his belly at Revelation 10:9.

Clearly that army, though it was necessary that Jehovah select ones willing to do the job, was not an army which was pleasing even to the bearers of the message, let alone to those at the receiving end of those messages.

Now the reciprocal of that necessary prying loose of the minds of men so as to awaken them to sober up and begin thinking on the Word once again keeps rolling back at those willing soldiers with a life of it's own. And that will not cease until all is concluded.

It is a refining even of the refiners.

Or, as i should say, a refining even of those who the great refiner used to do the refining.

 

[katiemygirl]

We know that those fallen angels are free to roam the earth at this present time. Their activity is reported upon in the scriptures regarding that and how they control people and nations.

Therefore this has to be a symbolic place wherein these ones are being reserved unto judgment.

MC, you strike me as a person who has not totally closed his mind. I pray I am right about that. I've learned that the best way to understand any Biblical topic is to do a word study. This topic would require many word studies. Unlike the JW's, you are not locked into the teachings of the GB. You still believe you are capable of understanding the Scriptures on your own, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. For that, I commend you.

From my word studies, here is what I've learned so far.

The Greek word (adou) translated hades, means the abode of all who have departed, or the abode of all the dead. However hades is divided, and the part of hades where the righteous dead abide is called Paradise. The Jews called the abode of the righteous dead, the Bosom of Abraham, Luke 16:19-31.

Jesus promised the thief on the cross, "I tell you with certainty, today you will be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43)

The Greek word for paradise, (Paradeisos) means; a park, an eden, a place of future happiness.

Acts 2:22-32 This passage shows Christ went into Hades (Paradise) until God raised Him from the dead and set Him at His own right hand.

Paul wrote, "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows-such a man was caught up to the third heaven.3 And I know how such a man-whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows-
4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak (2 Cor 12:2.)

Does one hear inexpressible words in a symbolic place?

If Hades (which consists of paradise and tartarus) is a symbolic place, then what is it symbolic of?

If hades (paradise and tartarus) is a symbolic place, then so are its residents. I, for one, do not believe the demons are symbolic. They are very real!

The scope of the unseen world is beyond what we know. We do know that the demons are allowed to roam in that realm, and from that realm, they can tempt us. Peter called Tartarus the pits of darkness, reserved for judgement.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;

Truthfully, there is not one of us who understands the spiritual realm. There are Bible verses, which give us hints, but we can't fully understand.

I do know that Satan is called the Prince of the air. He and his demons roam the earth, in an unseen realm, yet they are still imprisoned in the pits of darkness because that is precisely what 2 Peter 2:4 tells us.