MC, you strike me as a person who has not totally closed his mind. I pray I am right about that. I've learned that the best way to understand any Biblical topic is to do a word study. This topic would require many word studies. Unlike the JW's, you are not locked into the teachings of the GB. You still believe you are capable of understanding the Scriptures on your own, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. For that, I commend you.
Well, thank you for acknowledging that I do try. Indeed there is much to be discussed, the waters of which have been very muddied by extra-biblical traditions that now seem to have a basis in the scriptures due to how these ideas have affected our translating of it.
From my word studies, here is what I've learned so far.
The Greek word (adou) translated hades, means the abode of all who have departed, or the abode of all the dead. However hades is divided, and the part of hades where the righteous dead abide is called Paradise. The Jews called the abode of the righteous dead, the Bosom of Abraham, Luke 16:19-31.
Jesus promised the thief on the cross, "I tell you with certainty, today you will be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43)
There is no one concept concerning Sheol or Hades among the Jews. They, just as the entire world today (which is why they were a fitting picture of it), have many sects and greatly varied traditions. And these ideas war with each other among the Jews seeking to find supremacy.
You must understand that the Chaldean influence on the Jews began some 1500 or so years before the time of Christ. The Babylonian Talmud was heavily influenced of the Chaldean (Babylonian) beliefs and from that Talmud the Jews were greatly influenced, as that Talmud was embraced by the Rabbis thinking they had to be intellectually superior to those they had the responsibility to teach. Really a mistake of pride passed off as a necessity. Power can corrupt that way when one is not really qualified for the responsibility.
No, katiemygirl, the Bosom of Abraham is not a literal place, but is a position of favor and protection. The bosom is the place a father draws his child to in order (1) to comfort and confirm love to the child, (2) to examine the needs of the child so as to see that those needs are fully met, and (3) to advice the child in sound wisdom for the child's benefit and protection.
Numbers 11:12 “Have I conceived all this people? have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me, Carry them in thy bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child, unto the land which thou swarest unto their fathers?”
The Greek word for paradise, (Paradeisos) means; a park, an eden, a place of future happiness.
Acts 2:22-32 This passage shows Christ went into Hades (Paradise) until God raised Him from the dead and set Him at His own right hand.
Again I must disagree, katiemygirl:
Hades is a place in which one must be rescued from the pains of death if they are to be set free from it: Acts 2:24 “Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.”
Hades is a place wherein the inhabitants corrupt away in decay: Acts 2:27 “Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.”
David used the reality of what death is like to picture his spiritual situation while yet alive. But he none-theless therein tells us what we can expect of death: Psalms 6:4-5 “Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?”
The obvious answer? Psalms 115:17 “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”
Psalms 88:9-12
9 “Mine eye mourns by reason of affliction: LORD, I have called daily upon thee, I have stretched out my hands unto thee.
10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
11 Shall thy loving-kindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?”
Paul wrote, "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows-such a man was caught up to the third heaven.3 And I know how such a man-whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows-
4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak (2 Cor 12:2.)
The traditions claim there are seven heavens, another deviation from our scriptures. There are three heavens even as the verse you quote shows. The heavens wherein the birds fly, and the celestial heavens where all the planets and stars reside, and then the heavens that holds all that within it's core.
But the Bible also speaks of spiritual heavens that as such are not literal but are a status of appointment. The earth's kings are said to rule in such a heaven even now as regards to this earth and they always have. We can speak more of that later if you would like.
And as to Paul not speaking of a symbolic place called paradise:
The word for what you describe would be, “pardec”, as was used by the Bible writers. “Pardec” is concretely that park or paradise, whereas the word Paul uses is, “paradeisos”, not something concrete.
The Greek borrowed from foreign language to have this word to use. Paradeisos is the combination of the Hebrew, used, “pardec”, and the Greek, “isos”, G2470
G2470
isos -- pronounced: ee'-sos
probably from 1492 (through the idea of seeming); similar (in amount and kind)
Does one hear inexpressible words in a symbolic place?
When one is not so clear in their mind as to where that place was in which they did the hearing, they may well only be able to describe it in terms of “isos” as did Paul. Now that you understand that suffix you know to ponder this more.
If Hades (which consists of paradise and tartarus) is a symbolic place, then what is it symbolic of?
The symbol of a place wherein ones await a final decision from God as to their future concerning life or death being that future.
If hades (paradise and tartarus) is a symbolic place, then so are its residents. I, for one, do not believe the demons are symbolic. They are very real!
The scope of the unseen world is beyond what we know. We do know that the demons are allowed to roam in that realm, and from that realm, they can tempt us. Peter called Tartarus the pits of darkness, reserved for judgement.
2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
Yes, indeed those angels are very real. And the legacies of those who have lived and died are also very real to God. So real that Abel's blood cried out to God from the ground. 1 Thessalonians 4:13 “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.”
Truthfully, there is not one of us who understands the spiritual realm. There are Bible verses, which give us hints, but we can't fully understand.
I do know that Satan is called the Prince of the air. He and his demons roam the earth, in an unseen realm, yet they are still imprisoned in the pits of darkness because that is precisely what 2 Peter 2:4 tells us.
Yes, that is right.
We have much we can talk about yet, including what I told you about the earths human kings even now ruling in a symbolic heaven over this earth. I bet Pegg may understand that.
