Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??

[Pegg]

The father the holy spirit and the son is all one, just as there are levels of the ocean, but its all one........we also are one in God, so in truth nothing is separate from God, the only thing that makes it seem separate is the mind, don't get caught up in words, see past the words, see past the belief that you treasure.

My belief is based on the scriptures and Jesus own words that he is the 'son' of God.
He never claimed to be his 'Father'

The trinity doctrine comes from some other source, not from Jesus or the Apostles, therefore it is not a christian concept.

 

[Pegg]

Your sensitivity is showing there Pegg.

If you will look back on that post you will see I said, "Why should anyone be an authority?

In the case of Mose, for example, who was the authority, Pegg? What happened to Moses for talking credit to himself unduly when he split the rock to get water for the people? You are familiar with that account.

Moses spoke nothing to the people but that God had surely spoken it to him. And that is why not one word of what Moses spoke was ever found to be untrue.

Moses was made leader of the nation. That means he was in a position of authority.

If you meant some other meaning when you say 'authority' i didnt get it.

 

[psychoslice]

My belief is based on the scriptures and Jesus own words that he is the 'son' of God.
He never claimed to be his 'Father'

The trinity doctrine comes from some other source, not from Jesus or the Apostles, therefore it is not a christian concept.

But he did say that he and the father are one, you just cannot see it that's all.

 

[JFish123]

More from JWTruth.org: Great Truths

 

[psychoslice]

Anything from the Jw's has to be wrong.

 

[JFish123]

So any JW's know that Jesus is NOT your mediator in the Watchtower doctrine? That's a scary concept man

 

[psychoslice]

So any JW's know that Jesus is NOT your mediator in the Watchtower doctrine? That's a scary concept man

Its not scary, its just that they don't understand, they cannot help it, their conditioned.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Moses was made leader of the nation. That means he was in a position of authority.

If you meant some other meaning when you say 'authority' i didnt get it.

I meant it as Jesus describes it at Matthew 23:8-12. Is there another proper way?

1 Peter 5:2-3 "Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock."

It might be asked of your shepherds, 1 Corinthians 4:8 "Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you."

They do see themselves as already ruling as kings in that government by Christ. How is that any different than what you used to teach about the Pope claiming to be the vicar of Christ? About the Pope claiming to have the authority of Christ here on earth? Is that not what your seven or eight men who govern over you with rules of lordship do?

 

[Pegg]

But he did say that he and the father are one, you just cannot see it that's all.

I can see that.
In the same passage he also asked that his disciples all be one in the same manner.

So you know, its not like being 'one' means being of the same essense as that person. A husband and wife are said to be 'one' in scripture too. It doesnt mean they are the same person.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

I can see that.
In the same passage he also asked that his disciples all be one in the same manner.

So you know, its not like being 'one' means being of the same essense as that person. A husband and wife are said to be 'one' in scripture too. It doesnt mean they are the same person.

It does mean that the wife shares in the authority of her husband, he merely being the first one held responsible before God for the consequences of any decisions they make together.

 

[psychoslice]

I can see that.
In the same passage he also asked that his disciples all be one in the same manner.

So you know, its not like being 'one' means being of the same essense as that person. A husband and wife are said to be 'one' in scripture too. It doesnt mean they are the same person.

Of course it doesn't mean you the same person, but you are the same in the essence of God, forget about your carnal self, you are more than that, and when you realize that you will then truly understand what it means to be One with the father, I hope one day you can see that.

 

[Pegg]

It does mean that the wife shares in the authority of her husband, he merely being the first one held responsible for the consequences of any decisions they make together.

yet she is subject to him

1Cor 2: 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ;+ in turn, the head of a woman is theman;+ in turn, the head of the Christ is God

We are all subject to someone....except for God himself.

 

[Pegg]

I meant it as Jesus describes it at Matthew 23:8-12. Is there another proper way?

1 Peter 5:2-3 "Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock."

There will be some who are appointed as leaders of Gods people. Timothy was sent to congregations to appoint older men to serve in positions of leadership over the congregations. And we are told to be obedient to them:

“Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive.”—HEBREWS 13:17

It might be asked of your shepherds, 1 Corinthians 4:8 "Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you."

They do see themselves as already ruling as kings in that government by Christ. How is that any different than what you used to teach about the Pope claiming to be the vicar of Christ? About the Pope claiming to have the authority of Christ here on earth? Is that not what your seven or eight men who govern over you with rules of lordship do?

Consider the two scriptures you use and who you are applying them to.
Our governing body do not require tithes, do not get payed for making appearances at our conventions, they are not dressed in elaborate robes and headdresses and dictate every action we can and can't take. That first scripture you use is about being the 'master of another persons faith'
To be a master of another persons faith means to decide for them what they can and can't do. Something along the lines of 'you cannot use contraception' 'You must not marry if you want to be a priest' "You must give a certain amount of money" etc etc etc

Thankfully our governing body are not dictators of our faith. They lay out the principles and allow us to be guided by our own conscience as to who we apply those principles. And when it comes to definite bible laws, they dont tell us to uphold those laws while they flout them...no, they are also expected to uphold the same laws.

 

[Pegg]

Of course it doesn't mean you the same person, but you are the same in the essence of God, forget about your carnal self, you are more than that, and when you realize that you will then truly understand what it means to be One with the father, I hope one day you can see that.

how does this apply to a husband and wife? Can you break it down for me.... im not getting it lol

 

[Pegg]

It does mean that the wife shares in the authority of her husband, he merely being the first one held responsible before God for the consequences of any decisions they make together.

if the husband is ultimately responsible before God, then doesnt that in itself show that they do not hold the same level of authority?

I mean, when we consider the account about Adam and Eve, Eve was the first to sin, yet God demanded Adam to answer for the error. He could have gone to Eve to ask her what she had done, but he didnt. He chose to approach the man and it was the man who was questioned by him.

Doesnt sound like equal authority to me.

 

[psychoslice]

how does this apply to a husband and wife? Can you break it down for me.... im not getting it lol

Well of course husband and wife only means to be joined together, this is what marriage means to be joined together, but in reality we are all joined together in God, or Christ, whatever you like to call it, after all its just names that point to our true inner self , our true connection with God.

 

[Pegg]

Well of course husband and wife only means to be joined together, this is what marriage means to be joined together, but in reality we are all joined together in God, or Christ, whatever you like to call it, after all its just names that point to our true inner self , our true connection with God.

are we really all joined together in God? The division of religion speaks otherwise.

But lets just remember that the bible says a husband and wife are 'one'
it says God and Jesus are 'one'
it says all of Jesus disciples must become 'one'

So is this REALLY a formulation of the trinity doctrine??? Or is it simply an expression of speech signifying a union?

 

[james2ko]

actually you said you had silenced me many times....What makes you think you silenced me and I didnt just decide not to debate with you? Thats why I said I dont throw my pearls before 'piggypoos' Its a matter of interpretation. You see the scriptures as being completely literal, we dont.

1. Accurate interpretation involves reasonable inference and sound reasoning, among other things. As demonstrated by your unreasonable statement above (Jesus Christ's long-legged split, really?), sound reason is severely lacking. Which brings into question all of your organization's interpretation of scripture. For example:

For example, lets take the discussion we had back in 2011 about the kingdom on page one, You said:

Scripture indicates he will return to establish His throne and kingdom on earth not up in heaven. (Zec 14:4,9; Isa 2:3; Joel 3:16-18; Zec 8:20; Mic 4:1-2; Jer 3:17; Psa 2:8, 22:27-28; Psa 72:11, 86:9, 89:27; Rev 11:15)​

Its very well to use these scriptures, but the problem is that they had a real literal fulfillment on the real nation of Israel back in ancient times, and they will have a further spiritual fulfillment under Christ. You dont see the 2nd fulfillment as spiritual, while we do. You are expecting a 2nd literal fulfillment similar to what happened to the ancient nation of Israel. So whats the point of debating. Unless we can establish whether the fulfillment will happen literally or spiritually, there is no point.

2. You state my passages contain a dual fulfillment-- a "literal fulfillment" on the "real" nation of Israel in ancient times and a spiritual fulfillment after Christ was born. Let's just take a look at the first prophecy in Zec 14 to see if we can re-expose this erred doctrine by the only organization who claims to have "the truth":

Zec 14:3-4 Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.

Zec 14:5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with You.
Zec 14:6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish.
Zec 14:7 It shall be one day Which is known to the LORD Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light.

Zec 14:8-9 And in that day it shall be— That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur. 9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be "The LORD is one," And His name one.
​

When did "all" of this "literally" take place anytime in Israel's "real" history after this prophecy was penned (it's in the imperfect future), but before its spiritual fulfillment, which would have occurred sometime "after" Christ was born? That is a relatively small window of time, Pegg. Hope your creative juices are flowing.

​

 

[savagewind]

Moses was in authority. The Apostles were in authority. The high priest of Isreal was in authority.

I guess the reason why God puts some in authority is because he does not deal with every human one on one. He has always appointed someone to be in authority, and allows them to do the talking.

Isnt that why Jesus is called 'the Word'?

Moses' authority failed. Israel's authority failed. The apostle's authority failed. Come on! Learn from history. PLEASE!

 

[Pegg]

1. Accurate interpretation involves reasonable inference and sound reasoning, among other things. As demonstrated by your unreasonable statement above (Jesus Christ's long-legged split, really?), that is severely lacking. Which brings into question all of your organization's interpretation of scripture. For example:


2. You state my passages contain a dual fulfillment-- a "literal fulfillment" on the "real" nation of Israel in ancient times and a spiritual fulfillment after Christ was born. Let's just take a look at the first prophecy in Zec 14 to see if we can re-expose this erred doctrine by the only organization who claims to have "the truth":

Zec 14:3-4 Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.

Zec 14:5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with You.
Zec 14:6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish.
Zec 14:7 It shall be one day Which is known to the LORD Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light.

Zec 14:8-9 And in that day it shall be— That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur. 9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be "The LORD is one," And His name one.
​

When did "all" of this "literally" take place anytime in Israel's "real" history after this prophecy was penned (it's in the imperfect future), but before its spiritual fulfillment, which would have occurred sometime "after" Christ was born? That is a relatively small window of time, Pegg. Hope your creative juices are flowing.

​

The initial fulfillment of this prophecy occurred in Isreal when the Jews were restored to Jerusalem following the Babylonian exile of the 6th century bce. Jerusalem had been destroyed by King Nebuchadnezzar and its people taken captive to Babylon. (that's what inspired the song 'by the rivers of Babylon' ) But through the prophet Zechariah, Jehovah foretold a restoration...and that happened, its an historical fact printed on the pages of history.

The spiritual fulfillment occurs on Gods people, who from the 1st century now include gentile nations, not only jews. But the entire prophecy is not complete yet because the enemy nations mentioned in the prophecy have not been completely defeated yet. Even the scriptures say that there is a time before God takes action against his enemies:
at Hebrews 10:12 But this man offered one sacrifice for sins for all time and sat down at the right hand of God,+ 13 from then on waiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet

And remember, to the Christians, the city of Jerusalem was no longer the seat of Gods throne... now it was in heaven
22 But you have approached a Mount Zion+ and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem,+ and myriads* of angels 23 in general assembly,+ and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all,+ and the spiritual lives+ of righteous ones who have been made perfect,

The prophecy will be fulfilled finally in the battle of Armageddon when those enemies are placed as a stool for Christs feet. And this is going to be a world-wide event and affect every nation on earth....not just the tiny tract of land located Jerusalem with its tiny number of inhabitants.

(just so you know I post this with the utmost respect for you )