Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??

[JFish123]

 

[james2ko]

The second time is when he appears to each person. He has appeared to many people as they were gathered together for his name. The mind's eye is aware of his presence. At the same time he tells them to be quiet about his appearing to them. Many times.

Hi James,

I started a thread on this topic. "Revelation 20 - Earthly Reign"

I would very much like to discuss it with you or anyone else, for that matter.

I would much prefer to debate this topic in the appropriate thread so as not to detract from this one. So if you'd like, you can answer my question there, rather than here.

Can you show a Scripture that says Jesus will set one foot on the earth when He comes again.

According to apostle Paul,

"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus shall we always be with the Lord. Therefore, comfort one another with these words." (I Thessalonians 4:13-18).

That is a bad link. Here is the correct one:

Revelation 20 - Earthly Reign? | ReligiousForums.com

 

[Pegg]

1. Of course it was after He died. What did you think I meant?

You said he was superhuman.... but his power to perform miracles came from Jehovah.... he didnt have superhuman power on his own because he was not God as some people like to believe.

2. Yes it is. Fitting for a huge city. I'm hope I'm privileged to optomai it.



3. There will be no need for a physical temple in the physical "New "Jerusalem. It's called the "New" Jerusalem for a reason. So what is your point?

do you not see the illogical contradiction here?... on one hand you say the city is physical but the same passage says the temple of the city is God himself.

So how can the city be a literal city?

 

[james2ko]

You said he was superhuman.... but his power to perform miracles came from Jehovah.... he didnt have superhuman power on his own because he was not God as some people like to believe.

I realize He was not God the Father and that His supernatural body and power came from the Father. Not sure of the point you are trying to make.

do you not see the illogical contradiction here?... on one hand you say the city is physical but the same passage says the temple of the city is God himself. So how can the city be a literal city?

The law of non-contradiction states that contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time, e.g. the two propositions "A is B" and "A is not B" are mutually exclusive. Thus the fact that the city is physical would not contradict the idea of God and the lamb being the temple. If we are capable of being the figurative temple of God (1 Co 3:16) on this earth, why could it not be the case for God and Christ in the New Jerusalem on the new earth?

 

[JFish123]

 

[Pegg]

Thus the fact that the city is physical would not contradict the idea of God and the lamb being the temple. If we are capable of being the figurative temple of God (1 Co 3:16) on this earth, why could it not be the case for God and Christ in the New Jerusalem on the new earth?

Likewise, if we can be figurative temples and God himself is the temple of the new jerusalem, then the new jerusalem can also be figurative.

 

[james2ko]

Likewise, if we can be figurative temples and God himself is the temple of the new jerusalem, then the new jerusalem can also be figurative.

Way too much detail about the city for it to be figurative.

 

[Pegg]

Way too much detail about the city for it to be figurative.

the details are not realistic.... pearls for gates???

You seriously think a roadway made of 'gold' is going to be as clear as 'glass'

C'mon this is called hyperbol. Its like putting a 'camel thru the eye of a needle' its designed to make a point, yes, but its not designed to be taken literally.

 

[james2ko]

the details are not realistic.... pearls for gates??? You seriously think a roadway made of 'gold' is going to be as clear as 'glass'

Absolutely. Have you not read?

Jer_32:27 "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for Me?​

C'mon this is called hyperbol. Its like putting a 'camel thru the eye of a needle' its designed to make a point, yes, but its not designed to be taken literally.

Hyperbole does not contain this many intricate details. Think of it this way, if God is going to "make" a New Heaven and New Earth (Isa 66:22), what makes you think He cannot create pearls for gates or a "new" type of gold that looks like glass? Why would He use concepts that we would consider "normal" for something He as made "new' and will also be His dwelling?

 

[Pegg]

Absolutely. Have you not read?

Jer_32:27 "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for Me?​

Hyperbole does not contain this many intricate details. Think of it this way, if God is going to "make" a New Heaven and New Earth (Isa 66:22), what makes you think He cannot create pearls for gates or a "new" type of gold that looks like glass? Why would He use concepts that we would consider "normal" for something He as made "new' and will also be His dwelling?

He may not be speaking from an earthly perspective at all... what he considers to be pearls are things like 'wisdom' for example.

 

[james2ko]

He may not be speaking from an earthly perspective at all... what he considers to be pearls are things like 'wisdom' for example.

I do not think so, Pegg. It is all literal:

Rev 21:18 The building material [endomesis-G1739] of its wall was jasper, and the city was pure gold like clear glass.
​

There is no reason on earth (pardon the pun) for God to inspire this term, also translated "construction", if the city were simply hyperbole. Keep in mind this city will be located on the renovated new heaven and earth with no oceans, and apparently no sun or moon (Rev 21:23). Add in all of the intricate details and descriptions of its construction and you have the makings of a fantastic literal city difficult for us to imagine as literal today.

I realize it's hard for you to believe as this would prove the GB is in error. After all of this evidence, at some point, a fair-minded person like yourself has to realize the scriptures should always take precedence over a human organization's teachings. Perhaps a piece of knowledge Jehovah has chosen not to reveal to the GB just yet and indicative of the fact we should not put Jehovah in a box limiting the mortals He is currently working with.

 

[Pegg]

I do not think so, Pegg. It is all literal:

Rev 21:18 The building material [endomesis-G1739] of its wall was jasper, and the city was pure gold like clear glass.
​

There is no reason on earth (pardon the pun) for God to inspire this term, also translated "construction", if the city were simply hyperbole. Keep in mind this city will be located on the renovated new heaven and earth with no oceans, and apparently no sun or moon (Rev 21:23). Add in all of the intricate details and descriptions of its construction and you have the makings of a fantastic literal city difficult for us to imagine as literal today.

I realize it's hard for you to believe as this would prove the GB is in error. After all of this evidence, at some point, a fair-minded person like yourself has to realize the scriptures should always take precedence over a human organization's teachings. Perhaps a piece of knowledge Jehovah has chosen not to reveal to the GB just yet and indicative of the fact we should not put Jehovah in a box limiting the mortals He is currently working with.

Do you still expect us to be earthly creatures? No sun and moon would spell disaster for plant life...photosynthesis would stop! And no moon has a bearing on the seasons... so is all this going to change??

 

[james2ko]

Do you still expect us to be earthly creatures? No sun and moon would spell disaster for plant life...photosynthesis would stop! And no moon has a bearing on the seasons...

In today's heaven and earth, yes. Apparently not the case in the "new" heavens and earth.

so is all this going to change??

That is what the Greek term for "new" [kainos-G2537] indicates:

- Original: καινός
- Transliteration: Kainos
- Phonetic: kahee-nos'
- Definition:
1. new
a. as respects form
1. recently made, fresh, recent, unused, unworn
b. as respects substance
1. of a new kind, unprecedented, novel, uncommon, unheard of

 

[JFish123]

THE WATCHTOWER AND 1914
Ok, to arrive at this date of 1914, the Watchtower takes the account in Daniel 4 and apply a 360-day year for each of the seven "times" for a total of 2520 years. They add this date to 607 B.C., their date for the fall of Jerusalem under Nebuchadnezzar, and arrive at A.D. 1914, the date when Jesus supposedly returned invisibly in the heavens (The Truth Shall Make You Free, p. 300).

"This marked time began in the year (A.D.) 1914. In that important year the 'appointed times of the nations,' 2,520 years long, ran out. IF WE MEASURE BACK THAT MANY YEARS FROM 1914, WE COME TO THE ANCIENT DATE OF 607 B.C. That year was marked for the overthrow of the earthly "throne of Jehovah" and for THE DESTRUCTION OF THE THRONE CITY OF JERUSALEM and its sanctuary and for the total desolation of the land of the kingdom of Judah." (From the Book, "Your Will," 1958, pp. 309-310, Watchtower CD, emphasis added).

Therefore, the date 607 B.C. becomes the critical date in question. Was 607 B.C. the date when Jerusalem fell? No, it wasn't. No Bible scholar and no archaeological scholar holds to that date. The correct date is 586 B.C. and not 607 B.C. Therefore, the Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong about 1914 and everything else they attach to that date based on their prophet misunderstanding. Following are citations verifying that the correct date for the fall of Jerusalem was not 607 B.C. but 586 B.C.:

EVIDENCE #1: According to Encyclopedia.com, the Babylonian captivity is defined as "the period from the fall of Jerusalem (586 B.C.) to the reconstruction in Palestine of a new Jewish state (after 538 B.C.)."
EVIDENCE #2: "You will recall that the Babylonians, under Nebuchadnezzar, after twice laying siege to Jerusalem, finally captured it in 586 B.C.E. Nebuchadnezzar's army then pillaged the city, destroying the Temple and sending the inhabitants off to exile in Babylonia. ("Biblical Archaeological Review, Biblical Archaelogical Review).
EVIDENCE #3:
" . . . Nebuchadnezzar promptly invaded his unhappy country and besieged Jerusalem for a year and a half. In 587 Jerusalem fell and numbers of its inhabitants were carried away captive to Babylonia . . . " (Unger, Merrill, F., Unger's Bible Dictionary, Moody Press, Chicago, 1966, page 782).
Notice that the year 587 is offered instead of 586. There is sometimes a difference of opinion as to which year is the exact one. Nevertheless, it is obvious that 607 B.C. is not even close.
EVIDENCE #4: "586, Jerusalem destroyed and burned (Jer. 52:13b.); people taken captive (52:28-30). (The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1982, page 1016).
It is quite clear that the Jehovah's Witness organization is wrong about the 607 B.C. date upon which they place so much of their end-times' theology. If they are wrong about such a basic event and have not changed their error to match historical fact, how can they be trusted to represent Biblical truth? They cannot.

The fact is that they cannot change their date of 1914 because they have so much invested in it. They are forced to retain their 607 B.C. date even though it is in obvious error. To admit they were wrong is to undermine the whole credibility and truth of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. This they cannot do because they are more dedicated to their organization than they are to the truth.

Consider what the Apostle Paul has to say about a “different gospel,”
“I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!” (Galatians 1:6–9)

While the Jehovah’s Witnesses may not admit to preaching a “contrary” gospel, it is certainly not the same gospel as the Bible declares. However, adding a complex and speculative chronological system to the gospel couldn’t be anything but another gospel!
“Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses. What do such beliefs include? . . . That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ’s foretold presence.”
-The Watchtower 4/1/86 p. 31
Some may be unaware that Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that a person must worship Jehovah in association with the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society in order to be saved. Therefore, if someone is not in “approved association,” then he is not saved. Thus, the acceptance or rejection of 1914 can affect your very salvation. It is important to stress to the Jehovah’s Witnesses that they should consider whether the early church could have had anything like this in mind, namely, a salvation requirement that includes complex, speculative chronologies.

For More Info on this and other Subjects, please visit CARM.org

 

[djhwoodwerks]

*** w02 3/1 p. 17 par. 16 How Precious Is the Truth to You? ***
16 Many believe that if they had more money, they would be happier. However, if we make the gaining of money our chief goal in life, we might suffer “untold agonies of mind.” (1 Timothy 6:10, Phillips) Consider how many buy lottery tickets, spend money in casinos, or speculate recklessly in the stock market, dreaming of making a fortune. Very, very few see the fortune they hope for. And often even those who do see it find that their sudden wealth does not bring happiness. Rather, abiding happiness comes from doing Jehovah’s will, working with the Christian congregation with the guidance of Jehovah’s holy spirit and the help of his angels. (Psalm 1:1-3; 84:4, 5; 89:15) When we do this, unexpected blessings may come our way. Is the truth precious enough to you to bring such blessings into your life?

 

[savagewind]

The Watchtower makes money from the worldly stock market. So what? Maybe Jehovah might disagree that money made in the stock market can be said to come from Jehovah. JWs say that when Jehovah no longer provides for them then it will be time to quit publishing books and magazines. But if they are getting money from the world they will not know if Jehovah no longer provides.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

*** w85 10/15 p. 6 Peace and Security—Through God’s Kingdom ***
For one thing, this “old earth” is composed of man-made governments


*** w80 4/1 p. 20 par. 18 Creation’s Hope—Awaiting Its Realization ***
Where have all the endeavors of man-made governments got us? Where have all the social, economic, financial, medical and scientific arrangements of aspiring mankind got us down to this very day? (Why does this say, "GOT US? JW's are "NO PART OF THE WORLD", so this should not say, "GOT US", but "GOT THEM")

How can they claim, "MAN-MADE" governments?

Rom 13:1-7 (ESVST) 1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

It would seem that man-made governments are ministers of God, what do you think?

 

[savagewind]

*** w85 10/15 p. 6 Peace and Security—Through God’s Kingdom ***
For one thing, this “old earth” is composed of man-made governments


*** w80 4/1 p. 20 par. 18 Creation’s Hope—Awaiting Its Realization ***
Where have all the endeavors of man-made governments got us? Where have all the social, economic, financial, medical and scientific arrangements of aspiring mankind got us down to this very day? (Why does this say, "GOT US? JW's are "NO PART OF THE WORLD", so this should not say, "GOT US", but "GOT THEM")

This is good editing on your part. I agree saying "got us" is ridiculous. But they will not give up the idea that The Holy Sprit directs the Watchtower.

 

[averageJOE]

*** w02 3/1 p. 17 par. 16 How Precious Is the Truth to You? ***
16 Many believe that if they had more money, they would be happier. However, if we make the gaining of money our chief goal in life, we might suffer “untold agonies of mind.” (1 Timothy 6:10, Phillips) Consider how many buy lottery tickets, spend money in casinos, or speculate recklessly in the stock market, dreaming of making a fortune. Very, very few see the fortune they hope for. And often even those who do see it find that their sudden wealth does not bring happiness. Rather, abiding happiness comes from doing Jehovah’s will, working with the Christian congregation with the guidance of Jehovah’s holy spirit and the help of his angels. (Psalm 1:1-3; 84:4, 5; 89:15) When we do this, unexpected blessings may come our way. Is the truth precious enough to you to bring such blessings into your life?

Also, the Watchtower Society was affiliated with the U.N for almost 10 years.
http://ask.un.org/loader.php?fid=714&type=1&key=98fd5be823c972e94733f7fd50f6088d

Watchtower Society - United Nations NGO Status 1992

 

[Pegg]

Also, the Watchtower Society was affiliated with the U.N for almost 10 years.
http://ask.un.org/loader.php?fid=714&type=1&key=98fd5be823c972e94733f7fd50f6088d

Watchtower Society - United Nations NGO Status 1992

From what i understand, in order to have access to the research information provided by the UN...and even universities for that matter, you have to be a subscriber of some sort. Thats why when you look up information from researchers, you cant access it unless you have paid for it through a subscription or membership. But just being a subscriber to information does not make you a party to an organisation... you are viewed as a 'customer', not as a part of the organisation. Its not like they would ever call you up because a decision needs to be made and they would like your input.