Watchtower: Jesus is not "a god"!

[rational experiences]

Life. Living, is a human only in human conditions, using human rationale....to think.

I came from sperm and an ovary, was a baby, grew into an adult human and can argue.

Science in biology says, my life factually is highest form in Earth Nature, the closest similarity to my human life is an Ape mother and Father and ape baby.

When humans change their life spirit health they become more monkey like in their mutation of their delineation. Genesis human genetic review, medical, humans can only review humans own DNA of humans in the life of a human. DNA human genetics do not exist anywhere else.

Ask self in science why do I survive and live inside of a spirit of gases in a mass, named by humans a heavenly body?

The science says by the status spirit being sacrificed, a gas, a cold gas, an Immaculate gas by Earth body/stone ejection release, a fake sexual comparing, God O the stone entity Creator ejects/spurts its gas spirit into the empty womb of space.

Mother of God space, owning the holding of the planet then creates by spatial vacuum the Immaculate heavens.

The Immaculate cold clear gas heavens was sacrificed in a Satanic sun UFO ATTACK, radiation spirit. It set the gases on fire, and sacrificed burnt them, yet they were saved by the Holy Mother space and water...which the spirit body heavens sits upon in space, the deep, on the face of water.

Explanation for why a human being is living inside of a burning light atmosphere, but saved by the sacrifice for it cooled.

Scientific first relative advice to self in science about a self can live inside of burning gas heavenly body.

Relative to first self advice, reason why you are alive as a human.

No light, no life continuance, the relativity.

Science then tried to emulate that theme. Took God stone fused mass, the only place where a human in science can manipulate natural created energy in cosmological history. Took it and irradiated heated it to convert it.

Answer of relativity said, what is below changed equals the same change above your head.

Human life was then burnt/sent to Hell and sacrificed for science burnt a huge new mass of gases, they fell out and sacrificed life living upon the stone.

Relative science advice to the scientist liar.

Jesus is not A God.

God by science statement. O ST ONE....gases cold without light entombed that own the presence stone...first God O body mass. G O D as O circulation/movement of the spirit burning/cooling the second God.

The 2 of One, owned by the body of space.

 

[Oeste]

I see a possible connection when it comes to your messiah and a certain individual transformed into an angel of light: They seemingly both speak of themselves and seek their own glory.

If you don't mind, it appears some of our anti-Trinitarian friends have gone remarkably silent for such a provocative post. I'd just like to see if any of them would care to respond.

 

[Iymus]

If you don't mind, it appears some of our anti-Trinitarian friends have gone remarkably silent for such a provocative post. I'd just like to see if any of them would care to respond.

What I could possibly say on their behalf which would include myself as I am classified as anti-trinitarian;

if it favors or goes well with their doctrine will they not accept it? Why speak?

"partially referenced from Gen 4:7"
-----------------------------------------------------

Is more concerning if the Trinitarians don't speak, being that it seems to be an indictment against them.

Edit:
To clarify further this is an indictment towards you based off your own words yet you seemingly try to change or shift the narrative. If you go back to my post it was you specifically I was quoting and speaking/responding to. Yet this is the third time atleast that you seem to show disingenuousness.

 

[Oeste]

Do you think Jesus defiled the divine Name?

How would that be possible? He has a name which is above every other name.

Aren't you glad that anti-trinitarians are not burned at the stake, like Michael Servetus was? By trinitarians? (I am.)

Most certainly, as I'm sure you're glad Trinitarians are no longer being drowned or otherwise murdered by anti-Trinitarians after Constantine died.

 

[Oeste]

I see a possible connection when it comes to your messiah and a certain individual transformed into an angel of light: They seemingly both speak of themselves and seek their own glory.

If you don't mind, it appears some of our anti-Trinitarian friends have gone remarkably silent for such a provocative post. I'd just like to see if any of them would care to respond.

What I could possibly say on their behalf which would include myself as I am classified as anti-trinitarian;

if it favors or goes well with their doctrine will they not accept it? Why speak?

Well, we'd have to see if this "connection" you see between Satan and Jesus because "...both speak of themselves and seek their own glory" actually agrees with their doctrine.

Is more concerning if the Trinitarians don't speak, being that it seems to be an indictment against them.

Excellent observation Lymus!

That's my point. When it comes to defending the gospel it appears our Arian/JW friends feel this is a job that rests solely with Trinitarians. You see this yourself by the statement you've made.

Arians do respond, but show vigor only when there's an attack on the Trinity. An attack on the gospel hardly garnishes a yawn.

It's hard to see how the Christian faith would have survived the first 400 years, let alone to the 21st century, had the Arian Christology continued to flourish. Of course, that may explain pretty much why it didn't.

 

[Iymus]

Well, we'd have to see if this "connection" you see between Satan and Jesus because "...both speak of themselves and seek their own glory" actually agrees with their doctrine.

No evasiveness or sidestepping please; and know how to put two and two together consistently instead of when it might be be only favorable for you to do so.

I said your messiah not my messiah. I try to be very specific with my words to not be taken out of context so please pay attention and stay focused. You should know about the term anti messiah or antichrist masquerading as the original yet while declaring himself to be the God of Abraham and his descendants.

My messiah never declared himself to be the God of Abraham and his descendants but sent by him

Well, we'd have to see if this "connection" you see between Satan and Jesus because "...both speak of themselves and seek their own glory" actually agrees with their doctrine.

I see a connection between your messiah and satan yes.

my messiah seeks not his own glory because he follows not his own doctrine, will, works, authority, etc.

Excellent observation Lymus!

That's my point. When it comes to defending the gospel it appears our Arian/JW friends feel this is a job that rests solely with Trinitarians. You see this yourself by the statement you've made.

#1 You created this OP seemingly and specifically targeting them.

#2 Whether you like it or not Mar 12:29 & Eph 4:6.

#3 It is the responsibility for anyone to defend what they value .

 

[TiggerII]

Oeste OP:

Dilemma #3: Watchtower claims Jesus is “a god” (John 1:1) but not “a god” (John 10:33)

This is perhaps the most bizarre dilemma of all. Witnesses believe that the WT teaches Jesus is “a god”. Perhaps the Watchtower does, but as I am about to illustrate they just don’t teach it all the time. In fact, the WT claims that at John 10:33, Jesus specifically denies he’s “a god” at all! The reason for this will become clear.

.... [Yes I've skipped a few paragraphs to get to the point.]

But our clever "truth-finding" friends at the Watchtower have a solution. A "twofer" they gleaned straight out of the text. Not only does Jesus deny he's God at John 10:33, he also denies he's "a god"!:



.... [skipped section with link to Watchtower para. 66. It's examined below]



How the Watchtower got Jesus to deny being God and/or "a god" is baffling, but I suppose if you're a Jehovah [sic] Witness it's all there right there, embedded somewhere in the text.

Unfortunately that still leaves us with a huge problem. Let's not forget that Jehovah['s] Witnesses tell us Jesus is "a god" at John 1:1. so it's really disconcerting to see them claiming Jesus denies ever being "a god" by the time John 10:33 rolls around. But as the quote and link above [para. 66, "Prehuman Existence." 1962] shows this is the "current truth" even to this day.

It's a confusing, contradictory Christology.

....................................

And it's a lie (four times repeated)!

"Dilemma #3: Watchtower claims Jesus is “a god” (John 1:1) but not “a god” (John 10:33)"

Jesus never claimed to be God or 'a god.' John (about 60 years after Jesus' death) claimed that the Word was God (or more grammatically probable, "a god"). But Jesus never did, and the Watchtower never claimed that he did. Furthermore he never denied that he could be called "a god," as you say, and the Watchtower doesn't say that he did, as you say!

Full quote from

66 Jesus told those who wanted to stone him that he had not claimed to be God or a god, even though Psalm 82:6 had called some men, some Israelite judges, “gods.” Jesus had been speaking to the Jews about God as being his Father, which would mean that he, Jesus, was the Son of God. Jesus said to them: “No one will snatch them [my sheep] out of my hand. What my Father has given me is something greater than all other things, and no one can snatch them out of the hand of the Father. I and the Father are one.”

67 After Jesus said that, his very argument that followed proved that he was not claiming to be God, nor was he saying that he and his heavenly Father were one God, a trinitarian God in which he and his Father were two Persons along with a third Person, “God the Holy Ghost.” Jesus did not say, I and the Father and the Holy Ghost are one. He mentioned no “Holy Ghost.”—John 10:28-30.

 

[YoursTrue]

How would that be possible? He has a name which is above every other name.

So then, either way, do you consider the charge of blasphemy does not apply to him. In other words, would you say he blasphemed?

 

[Brian2]

Oeste OP:

....................................

And it's a lie (four times repeated)!

"Dilemma #3: Watchtower claims Jesus is “a god” (John 1:1) but not “a god” (John 10:33)"

Jesus never claimed to be God or 'a god.' John (about 60 years after Jesus' death) claimed that the Word was God (or more grammatically probable, "a god"). But Jesus never did, and the Watchtower never claimed that he did. Furthermore he never denied that he could be called "a god," as you say, and the Watchtower doesn't say that he did, as you say!

Full quote from

66 Jesus told those who wanted to stone him that he had not claimed to be God or a god, even though Psalm 82:6 had called some men, some Israelite judges, “gods.” Jesus had been speaking to the Jews about God as being his Father, which would mean that he, Jesus, was the Son of God. Jesus said to them: “No one will snatch them [my sheep] out of my hand. What my Father has given me is something greater than all other things, and no one can snatch them out of the hand of the Father. I and the Father are one.”

67 After Jesus said that, his very argument that followed proved that he was not claiming to be God, nor was he saying that he and his heavenly Father were one God, a trinitarian God in which he and his Father were two Persons along with a third Person, “God the Holy Ghost.” Jesus did not say, I and the Father and the Holy Ghost are one. He mentioned no “Holy Ghost.”—John 10:28-30.

It does not really matter that the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in this place. Neither the Jews nor Jesus was talking about the trinity, just the identity of Jesus.
Jesus was claiming to be the Son of God, with more of a claim to be called a god than the ones called gods in Psalm 82.
It is the Son who inherits the nations in Ps 2 and God inherits the nations in Ps 82. Does this mean that the Son of Ps 2 is the God of Ps 82. That would mean that there are 2 Gods. But there is only one God.

Ps 2:8 Ask me, and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
Ps 82:8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.

Jesus clears up this dilemma by saying that He and the Father are one. One God, with the Father being in the Son and the Son being in the Father.
Like the Jews the JWs would have nothing of it and wanted to kill Jesus, just as JWs want to kill the real Jesus and replace Him with a created angel even if it means denying all the scriptures that tell us Jesus is not created by telling us that Jesus created all things that have been created.

 

[Brian2]

I see a possible connection when it comes to your messiah and a certain individual transformed into an angel of light: They seemingly both speak of themselves and seek their own glory.

Yes Jesus had to tell us about Himself just as the Father told us about Himself in the OT.
But of course we do find that the OT had already told us about Jesus anyway and He was just agreeing with that.
I have also been told that it is a shame that Jesus did not write about Himself. That is true, He did not write about Himself, He left that job to others to tell the world about Him and what He had done.
But most important of all we find that it is God His Father who testified about Jesus not only in the OT but also at times in Jesus life on earth when God gave a testimony about Jesus from heaven and when God gave Jesus the power to heal and raise people from the dead and still storms etc and when God raised Jesus from the dead.
But how about now, is it Jesus testifying about Himself or others telling people what Jesus has done for them?

 

[YoursTrue]

That is a bit of an open questio. Maybe you should tell me what you are driving at.
Have seen the many places in the New Testament where Jesus is called Yahweh?

Maybe I'm missing something, but no. I haven't.

 

[YoursTrue]

It does not really matter that the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in this place. Neither the Jews nor Jesus was talking about the trinity, just the identity of Jesus.
Jesus was claiming to be the Son of God, with more of a claim to be called a god than the ones called gods in Psalm 82.
It is the Son who inherits the nations in Ps 2 and God inherits the nations in Ps 82. Does this mean that the Son of Ps 2 is the God of Ps 82. That would mean that there are 2 Gods. But there is only one God.

Ps 2:8 Ask me, and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
Ps 82:8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.

Jesus clears up this dilemma by saying that He and the Father are one. One God, with the Father being in the Son and the Son being in the Father.
Like the Jews the JWs would have nothing of it and wanted to kill Jesus, just as JWs want to kill the real Jesus and replace Him with a created angel even if it means denying all the scriptures that tell us Jesus is not created by telling us that Jesus created all things that have been created.

Let us help clear this up by recognizing that Jesus prayed for his disciples to be one. It means they are united.
I'd like to hear your analysis of the following prayer of Jesus, and how it is you think they could be one::

John 17 --

"that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one— 23 I in them and You in Me—that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me."

 

[Oeste]

No evasiveness or sidestepping please;

That is too funny Lymus! This is what? Post # 350 or so…and I have yet to receive a logical, rational answer from you to the 3 dilemmas posed in my opening post. And here you ask for an end to “evasiveness and sidestepping”.

and know how to put two and two together consistently instead of when it might be be only favorable for you to do so

Look, I give credit when we both agree with something. I thought you made an excellent observation that everyone here expects Trinitarians to defend the gospel, but with Arians no such expenditure is expected. Even now you are impatient for an answer to your question (even though my dilemmas remain unanswered). Your impatience, at least from my perspective, appears solely fueled by my identification as a Trinitarian.

I said your messiah not my messiah.

There is only one Messiah for Christians Lymus, not two or more. His name is Jesus Christ.

I try to be very specific with my words to not be taken out of context so please pay attention and stay focused. You should know about the term anti messiah or antichrist masquerading as the original yet while declaring himself to be the God of Abraham and his descendants.

Yes, I know about terms like the anti-Messiah and anti-Christ. But we weren’t discussing anti-Messiah’s and anti-Christ’s were we? You stated “messiah” and not “anti-messiah” or “anti-Christ”. If you're saying "My Messiah" is Satan because he happens to be the God of Abraham and his descendants, then please, just spill it out on the table. No evasiveness or sidestepping please.

Honestly Lymus, if you can’t keep track of what you say in your own post, then how on earth do you expect me to keep track of your words for you? If you say “ your messiah” but actually mean “ your anti-messiah” I’m not sure how you expect me or the readers to follow your conversation. We can do many things here and have good conversation, but mind reading is off the table.

BTW, I appreciate your offer to perhaps pick "My messiah" for me or for other Trinitarian on this board but we’ve already announced who our Messiah is, and that is the one and only Jesus Christ. You’ll find this plastered all over our churches, bulletin board, publications, doctrines and creeds. If you’re not aware of this, then perhaps you should do a bit more research.

Lastly, I believe “My Messiah”, the Christ I claim, is a personal choice for each and every Christian here. If you want to discuss Jesus, fine. But I do not need you to tell me who "My Messiah" is. Quite simply, if you are going to define “my Messiah” for me, then I am going to define “your God” for you, and the conversation from there will rapidly descend downhill.

I see a connection between your messiah and satan yes.

Well please, tell me who you think my messiah is and then tell us about this "connection".

My messiah never declared himself to be the God of Abraham and his descendants but sent by him

Look, that's great but with your propensity to suddenly switch from Messiah to anti-Christ I have no idea who your “My Messiah” actually is. However, if you’d like to get back to the biblical Messiah, the one I find in both Old and New Testament, then I’m game.

But I’m just not game right now, and I’m not going to be gamed either. “Who is the Messiah?” is not the subject of this thread, which I find is a surprising reminder to someone who’s asked me to “…please pay attention and keep focus”. Right now I’d simply like to get answers to a few questions.

At least @tigger2 has stepped up to the challenge. I recommend you follow his fine leadership example.

my messiah seeks not his own glory because he follows not his own doctrine, will, works, authority, etc

Well, since Jesus is Jehovah we can boast in him.

Therefore in Christ Jesus I have found reason for boasting in things pertaining to God. Romans 15:17

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Galatians 6:14​

You created this OP seemingly and specifically targeting them

The Watchtower? I sure did! I think the word "Watchtower" in the OP kind of gave it away. But if you mean Witnesses, then no. I only target Jehovah Witnesses when they target me.

 

[rational experiences]

Natural history in science quotes is first theme.

O one stone planet, named as stone by science, given the title Earth by males in science and said it owned the creation of its own stone spirits held inside of stone and also released out of stone. A stone ONE entity by science terms.

Then said the Sun blasted, so it became smaller, converted the Universal natural origins, as cooled/evolved bodies, and Earth survived. But had its owned cold gases set alight. Gases burning are not owned by the Sun. The gases are owned by the stone.

So detailed that a vacuum voided carbon of gases burning for 12 hours removing their own mass, yet cooling allowed gases to still be present and owning light. Natural atmospheric sacrificed owned by God. Not owned by man.

No man is God is the relative scientific theme.

Humans living in a biological medical healer science Genetic theme said human Genesis was attacked for the scientist increased and set alight a new mass of Heavenly gas above our head, to correlate to how much God stone cold non burning gases he removed in dust ground conversion.

So he then said, now the human being original male self, a baby to son to adult life, due to his inventor Holy science Father got sacrificed by his choice.

That Father in science was not God. God owned his living natural holy life support.

His scientific Father did it to him.

My spiritual human Father however says it was his brother in history that did the science, for he was never a scientist he was natural and spiritual. So then we can look at the human male as groups and say yes they surely are following the ideas of their Father the scientist who changed God and attacked/sacrificed their own male baby/son human holy life.

As the higher spiritual selves, life and healthier human male adult bodies who did it.

Exactly how it was taught.

Now the Moses event said Egyptians owned the pyramids, the Jewish Hebrews back in time were the brothers using the Temples in their own Land aligned to the pyramids. Had an argument about what scientist was causing life to be sacrificed, for surely their thesis and machine reaction could not be wrong. They were copying natural the mountain they said...and lied.

So today Jehovah witness said our Father taught Jesus so that Jesus got a lesson about the Hebrew Holy Land Temple. For Christians were not Jehovah Witness nor were they Roman. So they had to petition by status, a newly informed healer human spiritual group, about what a lot of liars scientists are, as the scientists who claim, I am right, you natural human self egotistically are wrong.

Jesus statement says, I petitioned both the Hebrew Temples and Roman Temples about why my life and the life of humanity were being sacrificed without claiming my DNA is especial because I own it. Yet that is what a lot of humans do...my DNA is better than your DNA because I say so.

A lot of historic occult science lying actually.

No human was ever a God, and the statements make that claim. And the statements also described natural light circular heavenly movement owned the G O D description as the only HOLY name, by how the spirit gases moved. So said, never do occult science by name ever again.

 

[Brian2]

Maybe I'm missing something, but no. I haven't.

1Pet 2:7To you who believe, then, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” 8 and, “A stone of stumbling and a rock of
offence.” They stumble because they disobey the message— and to this they were appointed.

Isa 8:13 The LORD of Hosts is the One you shall regard as holy. Only He should be feared; only He should be dreaded. 14 and He will be a sanctuary. But to both houses of Israel He will be a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence, a trap and a snare to the dwellers of Jerusalem.”

Heb 1: 10........“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”

Speaking of God
Ps 102:25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
26 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.
27 But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.

Heb 1:4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

Phil 2: 9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the name above all names,

The equality that He did not take by force by refusing to come to earth to suffer and die, He got through being obedient to His Father.

Do you see now how Jesus has been called Jehovah in the New Testament many times?

 

[YoursTrue]

It does not really matter that the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in this place. Neither the Jews nor Jesus was talking about the trinity, just the identity of Jesus.

And why weren't they talking about the trinity? Because they just didn't figure it out? Or better

1Pet 2:7To you who believe, then, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” 8 and, “A stone of stumbling and a rock of
offence.” They stumble because they disobey the message— and to this they were appointed.

Isa 8:13 The LORD of Hosts is the One you shall regard as holy. Only He should be feared; only He should be dreaded. 14 and He will be a sanctuary. But to both houses of Israel He will be a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence, a trap and a snare to the dwellers of Jerusalem.”

Heb 1: 10........“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”

Speaking of God
Ps 102:25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
26 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.
27 But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.

Heb 1:4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

Phil 2: 9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the name above all names,

The equality that He did not take by force by refusing to come to earth to suffer and die, He got through being obedient to His Father.

Do you see now how Jesus has been called Jehovah in the New Testament many times?

No. What I see is an obedient only-begotten Son who loved his Father and God no matter what, because he knew Him. Jesus laid down his life for the Father. He was then given greater power than before. In regard to Ps. 102, Jesus Christ will be forever and ever, but notice -- He will reign until all things have come into subjection to him, and then he will turn over everything (including himself) to his Father. So hopefully we will see what we will see.
I can't see how anything could be clearer than this in terms of the different positions of Father and Son, and how the Son is obedient to the Father.
1 Corinthians 15 -
"Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For “God has put everything under His feet.” Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him. 28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all."
(It also obliterates, in my opinion, the trinity concept of equality. Even though Jesus will reign UNTIL He has put all his enemies under his feet. We don't want to get waylaid by that to imagine that means Jesus is Jehovah or has from timelessness equality with his Father. Plus, I do not believe the Son was always there -- in other words, yes, God gave him existence.)

 

[Brian2]

Let us help clear this up by recognizing that Jesus prayed for his disciples to be one. It means they are united.
I'd like to hear your analysis of the following prayer of Jesus, and how it is you think they could be one::

John 17 --

"that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one— 23 I in them and You in Me—that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me."

John 17:23 I in them and you in me--so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

We can start off by realising that the Father and the Son are distinct but united as the one God. We can see this when we look at Ps 2 and Psalm 82 and realise that the Son is Jehovah who will inherit the nations.
We can see that the Son is in the Father and that Father is in the Son (John 10:38) and realise that this unites them as the one God.
We can see that believers are united spiritually to Christ.
16 Or don’t you know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” 17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with Him in spirit.
We are living stones of the church, we are parts of the body of Christ, we are a new creation and are therefore not only joined spiritually to Christ but also to each other if Christ is in us. So we are the one body of Christ and are being brought to complete unity (as John 17:23 tells us) in all things because of our being joined to Christ.
I imagine that in your Kingdom Halls these teachings in the Bible are neglected because you do not really need to know them if you are not in the Body of Christ and not in the Church.
But tell me are you taught that you are led by the Spirit of God?

 

[Brian2]

And why weren't they talking about the trinity? Because they just didn't figure it out? Or better

No. What I see is an obedient only-begotten Son who loved his Father and God no matter what, because he knew Him. Jesus laid down his life for the Father. He was then given greater power than before. In regard to Ps. 102, Jesus Christ will be forever and ever, but notice -- He will reign until all things have come into subjection to him, and then he will turn over everything (including himself) to his Father. So hopefully we will see what we will see.
I can't see how anything could be clearer than this in terms of the different positions of Father and Son, and how the Son is obedient to the Father.
1 Corinthians 15 -
"Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For “God has put everything under His feet.” Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him. 28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all."
(It also obliterates, in my opinion, the trinity concept of equality. Even though Jesus will reign UNTIL He has put all his enemies under his feet. We don't want to get waylaid by that to imagine that means Jesus is Jehovah or has from timelessness equality with his Father. Plus, I do not believe the Son was always there -- in other words, yes, God gave him existence.)

Yes I see an obedient only begotten Son, who has not come into existence because He has brought all things into existence and as the Son and heir He owns all that the Father has, including His Father's name.
I see people who refuse to see that the NT is giving Jesus that name which He owns.
I see people who commonly misrepresent the Trinity so that they can use bring up passages like 1 Cor 15: 25-28 as if the voluntary subjection of the Son to the Father is not known and taught by Trinitarians. The Son is the Son and the Father is the Father and the good Son submits to the Father's wishes just as He did in coming to earth to die.
Why is it not appropriate to see the eternal rule of Jesus over the whole earth as being the same as the eternal rule of Jehovah His Father, after all they have the same name and it is Jesus who is coming with all His holy angels to rule and judge.
Jesus rules now as King and with all power and authority, His inheritance has come, but He is still the Son and is also a man as well as being God by nature. In Jesus dwells all the fullness of absolute deity bodily (Col 2:9). In the end the Son will subject Himself to His Father again.
Trinitarians find no problem with that.

Zech 14:.....Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.6 On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. 7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.
8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.
9 The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.

Ps 96:13 before the Lord, for he comes, for he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness, and the peoples in his faithfulness.

Matt 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.

Ps 2:.....He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.
8 Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will break them with a rod of iron;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”
10 Therefore, you kings, be wise;
be warned, you rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

I like to see the Bible as just being true when I can but there are many places where the WT has to deny the truth of the Bible so that they can promote a scripture that they have twisted to mean something else.

 

[Iymus]

That is too funny Lymus!

it seems like asking something considerately of you is. my apologies if my expectations are too much.

Well please, tell me who you think my messiah is and then tell us about this "connection".

I don't have to think when you have told me.

Your Messiah is one who has glorified himself as specifically being the God of Abraham and his descendants; One who does his own will, works, etc.

What I can also tell you is that Satan also tries to be those things in the hearts of men.

What I can also tell you is that the Messiah I acknowledge does not seem to operate in the way how your messiah operates and the way satan operates;

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Well, since Jesus is Jehovah we can boast in him.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.


Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Joh 16:29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
Joh 16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
Joh 16:31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

 

[Oeste]

Thank you @tigger2 for responding to the OP! It's appreciated.

And it's a lie (four times repeated)!

"Dilemma #3: Watchtower claims Jesus is “a god” (John 1:1) but not “a god” (John 10:33)"

This is Tigger's assertion. Note Tigger makes his assertion and then attacks my own...all without attacking me.

Jesus never claimed to be God or 'a god.

Well we can (and have) certainly quibbled long and hard about that.

John (about 60 years after Jesus' death) claimed that the Word was God (or more grammatically probable, "a god").

Yes, but that's another point and a good one for you to bring up.It produces another dilemma.

John, as you have correctly pointed out here, is writing 60 years after Jesus' death. This means John is not simply a disciple or student of Jesus, but at this point he is an apostle. "Apostle" means messenger, or one who is sent. An apostle is sent to deliver or spread those teachings to others. An apostle does not deliver his or her own message but the message of the one that sent them.

Jehovah Witnesses are quick to tell me that when Jesus speaks, it is actually the Father speaking through Jesus. They are not as quick to tell me that when John speaks (as an apostle) it is actually Jesus speaking through John.

We know that John, unlike us, is inspired. We know scripture is God-breathed. We know John is personally directed (guided) by the Counselor, the Holy Spirit or, as the Witnesses might claim, "activated" by the spirit. This means he is not about to derailed from his Christ appointed mission and deviate from the message of Christ. He cannot "add" or "subtract" from the inspired message. If he quibbles one iota, the message is no longer inspired.

At this point the dilemma is this: If John is not speaking for Jesus, why has he abandoned his position as an apostle? Why is he now speaking for himself? Why is he not following the "pattern" set by Jesus? Is there one pattern for Jesus and another for the apostles, and if so, where do we find this in scripture?

When all is said and done @tigger2, we cannot separate the words of the inspired apostle John from the Jesus who sent him anymore than we can separate Jesus' words from the Father who sent him. When John speaks, we are, in a sense, getting it "straight from the horses mouth". It's the "Envoy and the King" illustration all over again.

When an inspired John tells us Jesus is "God" or "a god" it is Jesus telling us the very same thing. There is no deviation in the inspired message. And when John gives us the narrative of a crowd about to stone Jesus for being "God" or "a god" it is Jesus giving us the exact same message. Again, we expect there will be no deviation of substance, no disclaimer (beyond one of style) from what Jesus would have said had he physically penned the chapter himself.

Do you agree?