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Watchtower: Jesus is not "a god"!

Brian2

Veteran Member
Hi @Brian2
My point is that the Jehovahs Witnesses are perfectly correct in their grammatical rendering.

I admit that my own bias is in favor of the earliest historical Christian models described in the earliest Judeo-Christian literature where the Father and the Son are different individuals (3=3 model). I do not see any logical or rational or intuitive or interpretive advantages to the later 3=1 model of the trinity.

I does look as if the JW translation of "a god" is grammatically correct from what I have read. I think that there are famous linguists who would disagree with that however.
This site is a good one to get various views on the subject.
In John 1:1c, should the Greek word θεὸς be translated into English as “a god” or “God”?
I suggest answers 35 and 20 for what I think the John 1:1c means and this also shows what I meant by God in John 1:1c being adjectival.
Answer 14 agrees with the NWT rendering and shows also that the "translators" wanted to show the "qualitative" nature of God in the clause, making it adjectival. Thus the Word had God like qualities making it of a "god class of beings".
Answers 89 and 33 seem to be more concerned with Colwell's Rule which the JWs reject, but which is not really needed to see that their translation is in error.
The JWs imagine that the Word was created before the "beginning" even though this is nowhere stated in the Bible, and they ignore verse 3 which tells us that everything came into being through the Word, meaning the Word was not created.
John 1:1 is showing distinctness of the Word and of "the God" but is also showing that the Word was God in nature.

LOGICAL AND RATIONAL AND PHILOSOPHICAL AND SEMANTICAL EFFECTS OF DIFFERENT MODELS OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE FATHER, JESUS AND THE SPIRIT
For example, speaking of “the basis of their relationship” which you referred to. In your description, you describe the “oneness” of Jesus and God the Father as “one of being equal in nature and everything else except authority,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,unless of course the Son decided one day to claim that full equality next to His Father.” (Brian2 in post #651).

It is difficult to justify the logic of claiming Jesus does not have full authority or equality with his Father, yet Jesus can "claim" full authority and equality by simply “claiming it”.
IF he doesn’t have it, and “claims it”, then the full equality must still be given him by another source that has it.

I don’t see the logical advantage of this philosophy or how to make it historically coherent with the earliest literature.

I don't know what "earliest literature" you are referring to. Certainly Jesus is seen as the Son of God and so God by nature in the Bible and there is no stepping away from the Jewish idea of just one God. Jesus is therefore not a separate God but the Father and Son are together, one God. The Apostolic Fathers also called Jesus their God and did not step away from the one God idea in the Old Testament.
That Jesus is the Son of His Father it means that the Son is subject to His Father even if He has God nature and is equal in all other ways.
If He was just "a god" He could not even consider He could become equal to His Father in any way. But since He is actually equal to His Father except in authority, this is how He could even take the authority by Himself by refusing to become a man. This would be pride and usurping authority and would be taking His inheritance before the Father gave it to Him. But He is exactly like His Father and the 2 are one God and so the pre human Jesus did not even consider this.
Phil 2 (and importantly it is about humility between equals) shows us that Jesus was not like this but did as the Father said and was exalted and received that authority anyway afterwards.
He is now ruling and the Father knows He will rule according to His (the Father's wishes) and we bow to Jesus and this gives glory not only to Jesus but also to the Father.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi @Brian2

1) THE JEHOVAHS WITNESS TRANSLATION OF JOHN 1:1C IS, GRAMMATICALLY, CORRECT – DISAGREEMENTS ARE BASED ON THEOLOGY, NOT GRAMMAR

Brian2 said : “I[t] does look as if the JW translation of "a god" is grammatically correct from what I have read. I think that there are famous linguists who would disagree with that however.
This site is a good one to get various views on the subject. (post #661)


Yes, the Jehovahs witness translation of John 1:1c (και Θεος ην ο λογος) rendered “and the Word was a God” is, grammatically correct.
Your statement that there are famous linguists who would disagree is, I think, incorrect.
No linguist in the world who knows Koine disagrees with the grammar. None. Zero. Zip. Nada.
Grammatically, the Jehovahs Witnesses are correct.

Disagreements with rendering John 1:1c as “a God” are almost always based on theological position (i.e. a specific theological bias) and NOT on Grammar, (since grammatically, the Jehovahs Witnesses are correct).

Even Colwells rule (which people refer to but have not read) specifies this when he said if the context suggests that the predicate is definite, it should be translated as a definite noun in spite of the absence of the article." Colwell is NOT arguing grammar in this case, but he is arguing CONTEXT.

Colwell SUPPORTS the Jehovahs Witness translation grammatically It is in the context of his personal theology (i.e. context) he argues against indefinitness. As I pointed out, historical context is the ONLY basis upon which one can argue implied directness in John 1:1c.



2) THE APOSTOLIC FATHERS’ DESCRIPTION OF JESUS’ RELATIONSHIP WITH HIS FATHER

Brian2 said : “Jesus is therefore not a separate God but the Father and Son are together, one God. The Apostolic Fathers also called Jesus their God and did not step away from the one God idea in the Old Testament.” (post #661)

I am glad you claim familiarity with the Apostolic Fathers. They are, historically, profoundly important.

When I read the Apostolic Fathers (which are among the earliest Judeo-Christian documents), they seem to retain the earlier model where Jesus and his Father are different individuals.
Can you give me a few quotes from the Apostolic Fathers supporting this specific claim of yours that the Apostolic Fathers describe “the Father and Son are together, one God”? (post #661)



3) THE PHRASE “EXACTLY LIKE”

I notice you repeatedly use the description that Jesus (i.e. the Son, the Messiah) is “exactly like” his Father. Where are you sourcing this description “exactly like”? Are you getting it from someone who created an english bible or another source?


In any case Brian2, I hope your journey is wonderful and insightful. Though we will disagree on specifics, I like some of your ideas.

Clear
ειτζφυφυτωω
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Hi @Brian2

1) THE JEHOVAHS WITNESS TRANSLATION OF JOHN 1:1C IS, GRAMMATICALLY, CORRECT – DISAGREEMENTS ARE BASED ON THEOLOGY, NOT GRAMMAR

Brian2 said : “I[t] does look as if the JW translation of "a god" is grammatically correct from what I have read. I think that there are famous linguists who would disagree with that however.
This site is a good one to get various views on the subject. (post #661)


Yes, the Jehovahs witness translation of John 1:1c (και Θεος ην ο λογος) rendered “and the Word was a God” is, grammatically correct.
Your statement that there are famous linguists who would disagree is, I think, incorrect.
No linguist in the world who knows Koine disagrees with the grammar. None. Zero. Zip. Nada.
Grammatically, the Jehovahs Witnesses are correct.

Disagreements with rendering John 1:1c as “a God” are almost always based on theological position (i.e. a specific theological bias) and NOT on Grammar, (since grammatically, the Jehovahs Witnesses are correct).

Even Colwells rule (which people refer to but have not read) specifies this when he said if the context suggests that the predicate is definite, it should be translated as a definite noun in spite of the absence of the article." Colwell is NOT arguing grammar in this case, but he is arguing CONTEXT.

Colwell SUPPORTS the Jehovahs Witness translation grammatically It is in the context of his personal theology (i.e. context) he argues against indefinitness. As I pointed out, historical context is the ONLY basis upon which one can argue implied directness in John 1:1c.



2) THE APOSTOLIC FATHERS’ DESCRIPTION OF JESUS’ RELATIONSHIP WITH HIS FATHER

Brian2 said : “Jesus is therefore not a separate God but the Father and Son are together, one God. The Apostolic Fathers also called Jesus their God and did not step away from the one God idea in the Old Testament.” (post #661)

I am glad you claim familiarity with the Apostolic Fathers. They are, historically, profoundly important.

When I read the Apostolic Fathers (which are among the earliest Judeo-Christian documents), they seem to retain the earlier model where Jesus and his Father are different individuals.
Can you give me a few quotes from the Apostolic Fathers supporting this specific claim of yours that the Apostolic Fathers describe “the Father and Son are together, one God”? (post #661)



3) THE PHRASE “EXACTLY LIKE”

I notice you repeatedly use the description that Jesus (i.e. the Son, the Messiah) is “exactly like” his Father. Where are you sourcing this description “exactly like”? Are you getting it from someone who created an english bible or another source?


In any case Brian2, I hope your journey is wonderful and insightful. Though we will disagree on specifics, I like some of your ideas.

Clear
ειτζφυφυτωω
Hi, Clear. Very good interpretation of what Colwell said. Thanks.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Hi @Brian2

1) THE JEHOVAHS WITNESS TRANSLATION OF JOHN 1:1C IS, GRAMMATICALLY, CORRECT – DISAGREEMENTS ARE BASED ON THEOLOGY, NOT GRAMMAR

Brian2 said : “I[t] does look as if the JW translation of "a god" is grammatically correct from what I have read. I think that there are famous linguists who would disagree with that however.
This site is a good one to get various views on the subject. (post #661)


Yes, the Jehovahs witness translation of John 1:1c (και Θεος ην ο λογος) rendered “and the Word was a God” is, grammatically correct.
Your statement that there are famous linguists who would disagree is, I think, incorrect.
No linguist in the world who knows Koine disagrees with the grammar. None. Zero. Zip. Nada.
Grammatically, the Jehovahs Witnesses are correct.

Disagreements with rendering John 1:1c as “a God” are almost always based on theological position (i.e. a specific theological bias) and NOT on Grammar, (since grammatically, the Jehovahs Witnesses are correct).

Even Colwells rule (which people refer to but have not read) specifies this when he said if the context suggests that the predicate is definite, it should be translated as a definite noun in spite of the absence of the article." Colwell is NOT arguing grammar in this case, but he is arguing CONTEXT.

Colwell SUPPORTS the Jehovahs Witness translation grammatically It is in the context of his personal theology (i.e. context) he argues against indefinitness. As I pointed out, historical context is the ONLY basis upon which one can argue implied directness in John 1:1c.

There seems to be a lot of context in the reasoning for most translations, and that is a good reason imo. Also however when I look at scholars they do at times speak about word order also which is not context. So both context and word order show that John 1:1c should be translated with "God" as not being "the God" of John 1:1b but as being "qualitative".
In most translations this qualitative nature does not show in the English. It would be hard to show it without changing "God" into "divine" or adding to the text to bring out the qualitative nature of "God".
Leaving it as "God" was probably the best option even if confusing for many readers. Certainly being qualitatively God does mean that the Word is God by nature.
Here is a site with some scholars who disagree with the NWT of John 1:1 amongst other things.
Scholars on Jn.1:1


2) THE APOSTOLIC FATHERS’ DESCRIPTION OF JESUS’ RELATIONSHIP WITH HIS FATHER
Brian2 said : “Jesus is therefore not a separate God but the Father and Son are together, one God. The Apostolic Fathers also called Jesus their God and did not step away from the one God idea in the Old Testament.” (post #661)

I am glad you claim familiarity with the Apostolic Fathers. They are, historically, profoundly important.

When I read the Apostolic Fathers (which are among the earliest Judeo-Christian documents), they seem to retain the earlier model where Jesus and his Father are different individuals.
Can you give me a few quotes from the Apostolic Fathers supporting this specific claim of yours that the Apostolic Fathers describe “the Father and Son are together, one God”? (post #661)


I have not much familiarity but I have read various quotes mentioning Jesus as God.
I'm not sure why you seem to be saying that the trinity model does not view Jesus and the Father as different individuals. It does and so is in agreement with what you say is the earlier model.

3) THE PHRASE “EXACTLY LIKE”
I notice you repeatedly use the description that Jesus (i.e. the Son, the Messiah) is “exactly like” his Father. Where are you sourcing this description “exactly like”? Are you getting it from someone who created an english bible or another source?


In any case Brian2, I hope your journey is wonderful and insightful. Though we will disagree on specifics, I like some of your ideas.

Clear
ειτζφυφυτωω

I get that from various parts of scripture which show the Son to be the same nature as His Father and equal to His Father and basically exactly like Him and having the same glory. The only thing I see lacking is the authority and that is because the Son is the Son and the Father is the Father and they have a Father /Son relationship.
But of course the Son has all power in heaven and on earth at the moment and even when He in submission to His Father, the authority and power belonged to Him as the Son who is also the heir.
Heb 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
 

TiggerII

Active Member
Trinitarian scholar, minister, and missionary, H. R. Boer admits: The very first Christians to really discuss Jesus’ relationship to God in their writings were the Apologists.

“Justin and the other Apologists therefore taught that the Son is a creature. He is a high creature, a creature powerful enough to create the world, but nevertheless, a creature. In theology this relationship of the Son to the Father is called Subordinationism. The Son is subordinate, that is, secondary to, dependent upon, and caused by the Father.” - p. 110, A Short History of the Early Church, Eerdmans (trinitarian), 1976.

Other respected scholars agree.

“Before the Council of Nicaea (AD 325) all theologians viewed the Son as in one way or another subordinate to the Father.” - pp. 112-113, Eerdman’s Handbook to the History of Christianity (trinitarian), 1977; and p. 114, The History of Christianity, A Lion Handbook, Lion Publishing, 1990 revised ed.


“The formulation ‘One God in three persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian Dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers [those very first Christians who had known and been taught by the Apostles and their disciples], there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.” - New Catholic Encyclopedia, p. 299, v. 14, 1967.

Alvan Lamson is especially straightforward:

“The modern popular doctrine of the Trinity ... derives no support from the language of Justin [Martyr]: and this observation may be extended to all the ante-Nicene Fathers; that is, to all Christian writers for three centuries after the birth of Christ. It is true, they speak of the Father, Son, and ... Holy Spirit, but not as co-equal, not as one numerical essence, not as Three in One, in any sense now admitted by Trinitarians. The very reverse is the fact.” - Alvan Lamson, The Church of the First Three Centuries.

Clement of Rome

(wrote c. 96 A.D.)

The writing of Clement of Rome (c. 96 A. D.) to the Corinthians (1 Clement) is:

“the earliest and most valuable surviving example of Christian literature outside the New Testament” and “was widely known and held in very great esteem by the early Church. It was publicly read in numerous churches, and regarded as being almost on a level with the inspired scriptures.” - pp. 17, 22, Early Christian Writings, Staniforth, Dorset Press, New York.

Clement, St., Pope of Rome (ca. 92-101) .... St. Clement is looked upon as the first of the ‘Apostolic Fathers.’ - p. 177, An Encyclopedia of Religion, Ferm (ed.), 1945.

So what did this famous Apostolic Father tell us about the essential knowledge of God?

[In the early days of Christianity] one believed in the Father, in the Son and in the Holy Spirit, but no tie was available to unite them together. They were mentioned separately. Prayers were addressed, for example, to the Father who alone, according to Clement of Rome, ‘was God.’ - Revue d’ Histoire et de Litterature Religieuses (Review of History and of Religious Literature), May-June, 1906, pp. 222, 223.

Yes, Clement of Rome wrote:

“And we will ask, with instancy of prayer and supplication, that the Creator of the universe may guard intact unto the end the number that hath been numbered of His elect throughout the whole world, through his beloved Son Jesus Christ, through whom He called us from darkness to light, from ignorance to the full knowledge of the glory of His Name.

“[Grant unto us, Lord {Jehovah, Father}] that we may set our hope on Thy Name {Jehovah - Ps. 83:18, KJV, Ex. 3:15, NEB, LB, MLB} which is the primal source of all creation ... that we may know thee, who alone abides Highest in the lofty, Holy in the holy ... Let all the Gentiles know that Thou art God alone, and Jesus Christ is Thy Son, and we are Thy people and the sheep of Thy pasture.” - 59:2-4, The Apostolic Fathers, Lightfoot and Harmer, noted scholars. [Information in special brackets { } added by me.]


“Jesus Christ was sent forth from God. So then Christ is from God, and the Apostles are from Christ. Both therefore came of the will of God in the appointed order.” - 42:1, 2, Lightfoot & Harmer, The Apostolic Fathers.
 

TiggerII

Active Member
John 1:1c

All other clauses in John's writings which are truly parallel to John 1:1c are translated as indefinite (not "qualitative" or defnite). This includes all 19 clauses where the "non-prepositonal" predicate noun is found before the verb.



H 1. John 4:9 (a) - indefinite (“a Jew”) - all translations


H,W 2. John 4:19 - indefinite (“a prophet”) - all

H,W 3. John 6:70 - indefinite (“a devil”/“a slanderer”) - all [16]


H,W
4. John 8:44 - indefinite (“a murderer”/“a manslayer”) - all


H,W 5. John 8:48 - indefinite (“a Samaritan”) - all

H,W 6. John 9:24 - indefinite (“a sinner”) - all

H,W 7. John 9:25 - indefinite (“a sinner”) - all

H,W 8. John 10:1 - indefinite (“a thief and a plunderer”) - all


H,W 9. John 10:33 - indefinite (“a man”) - all

H,W 10. John 18:35 - indefinite (“a Jew”) - all

H,W 11. John 18:37 (a) - indefinite (“a king”) - all

[H,W 12. John 18:37 (b) - indefinite (“a king”) - in Received Text and in 1991 Byzantine Text]

H,W 13. Jn 8:44 (b) - liar (he) is.

H,W 14. Jn 9:8 (a) - beggar (he) was.

H,W 15. Jn 9:17 - prophet (he) is.

H,W 16. Jn 9:25 - sinner (he) is.

H,W 17. Jn 10:13 - hireling (he) is.

H,W 18. Jn 12:6 - thief (he) was.

19. 1 Jn 4:20 - liar (he) is.

H: Also found in Harner’s list of “Colwell Constructions”(end note #16, JBL)

W: Also found in Wallace’s list of “Colwell Constructions”(Greek Grammar & Syntax)

These are all translated in most Bibles as indefinite predicate nouns. Following John's usage, then we can see that he intended "a god" at John 1:1c.

Colwell formed his rule by using examples which (although anarthrous) are uncertain examples. That is, recognized scholars have stated that abstracts, personal names, "Prepositional" examples ('man of God'; 'son of man'; 'prophet to us'; etc.) are ambiguous concerning definite article use. (Colwell most often used "prepositional" predicate nouns as his "evidence" for his rule.)

In other words, "son of man he is" may be understood as meaning either "He is the son of man" or "He is a son of man." Only context will help decide.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Brian2

Veteran Member
Trinitarian scholar, minister, and missionary, H. R. Boer admits: The very first Christians to really discuss Jesus’ relationship to God in their writings were the Apologists.

“Justin and the other Apologists therefore taught that the Son is a creature. He is a high creature, a creature powerful enough to create the world, but nevertheless, a creature. In theology this relationship of the Son to the Father is called Subordinationism. The Son is subordinate, that is, secondary to, dependent upon, and caused by the Father.” - p. 110, A Short History of the Early Church, Eerdmans (trinitarian), 1976.

Other respected scholars agree.

“Before the Council of Nicaea (AD 325) all theologians viewed the Son as in one way or another subordinate to the Father.” - pp. 112-113, Eerdman’s Handbook to the History of Christianity (trinitarian), 1977; and p. 114, The History of Christianity, A Lion Handbook, Lion Publishing, 1990 revised ed.


“The formulation ‘One God in three persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian Dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers [those very first Christians who had known and been taught by the Apostles and their disciples], there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.” - New Catholic Encyclopedia, p. 299, v. 14, 1967.

Alvan Lamson is especially straightforward:

“The modern popular doctrine of the Trinity ... derives no support from the language of Justin [Martyr]: and this observation may be extended to all the ante-Nicene Fathers; that is, to all Christian writers for three centuries after the birth of Christ. It is true, they speak of the Father, Son, and ... Holy Spirit, but not as co-equal, not as one numerical essence, not as Three in One, in any sense now admitted by Trinitarians. The very reverse is the fact.” - Alvan Lamson, The Church of the First Three Centuries.

Clement of Rome

(wrote c. 96 A.D.)

The writing of Clement of Rome (c. 96 A. D.) to the Corinthians (1 Clement) is:

“the earliest and most valuable surviving example of Christian literature outside the New Testament” and “was widely known and held in very great esteem by the early Church. It was publicly read in numerous churches, and regarded as being almost on a level with the inspired scriptures.” - pp. 17, 22, Early Christian Writings, Staniforth, Dorset Press, New York.

Clement, St., Pope of Rome (ca. 92-101) .... St. Clement is looked upon as the first of the ‘Apostolic Fathers.’ - p. 177, An Encyclopedia of Religion, Ferm (ed.), 1945.

So what did this famous Apostolic Father tell us about the essential knowledge of God?

[In the early days of Christianity] one believed in the Father, in the Son and in the Holy Spirit, but no tie was available to unite them together. They were mentioned separately. Prayers were addressed, for example, to the Father who alone, according to Clement of Rome, ‘was God.’ - Revue d’ Histoire et de Litterature Religieuses (Review of History and of Religious Literature), May-June, 1906, pp. 222, 223.

Yes, Clement of Rome wrote:

“And we will ask, with instancy of prayer and supplication, that the Creator of the universe may guard intact unto the end the number that hath been numbered of His elect throughout the whole world, through his beloved Son Jesus Christ, through whom He called us from darkness to light, from ignorance to the full knowledge of the glory of His Name.

“[Grant unto us, Lord {Jehovah, Father}] that we may set our hope on Thy Name {Jehovah - Ps. 83:18, KJV, Ex. 3:15, NEB, LB, MLB} which is the primal source of all creation ... that we may know thee, who alone abides Highest in the lofty, Holy in the holy ... Let all the Gentiles know that Thou art God alone, and Jesus Christ is Thy Son, and we are Thy people and the sheep of Thy pasture.” - 59:2-4, The Apostolic Fathers, Lightfoot and Harmer, noted scholars. [Information in special brackets { } added by me.]


“Jesus Christ was sent forth from God. So then Christ is from God, and the Apostles are from Christ. Both therefore came of the will of God in the appointed order.” - 42:1, 2, Lightfoot & Harmer, The Apostolic Fathers.

No doubt it is not your fault that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society misquotes scholars and Church Fathers and makes them sounds as if they agree with JW doctrine.
Why does the WatchTower misquote the Church Fathers? | Yahoo Answers
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
John 1:1c

All other clauses in John's writings which are truly parallel to John 1:1c are translated as indefinite (not "qualitative" or defnite). This includes all 18 clauses where the "non-prepositonal" predicate noun is found before the verb.


H 1. John 4:9 (a) - indefinite (“a Jew”) - all translations


H,W 2. John 4:19 - indefinite (“a prophet”) - all

H,W 3. John 6:70 - indefinite (“a devil”/“a slanderer”) - all [16]


H,W
4. John 8:44 - indefinite (“a murderer”/“a manslayer”) - all


H,W 5. John 8:48 - indefinite (“a Samaritan”) - all

H,W 6. John 9:24 - indefinite (“a sinner”) - all

H,W 7. John 10:1 - indefinite (“a thief and a plunderer”) - all


H,W 8. John 10:33 - indefinite (“a man”) - all

H,W 9. John 18:35 - indefinite (“a Jew”) - all

H,W 10. John 18:37 (a) - indefinite (“a king”) - all

[H,W 11. John 18:37 (b) - indefinite (“a king”) - in Received Text and in 1991 Byzantine Text]

………………………………................................

H,W 12. Jn 8:44 (b) - liar (he) is.

H,W 13. Jn 9:8 (a) - beggar (he) was.

H,W 14. Jn 9:17 - prophet (he) is.

H,W 15. Jn 9:25 - sinner (he) is.

H,W 16. Jn 10:13 - hireling (he) is.

H,W 17. Jn 12:6 - thief (he) was.

18. 1 Jn 4:20 - liar (he) is.
.......................................
H: Also found in Harner’s list of “Colwell Constructions”(end note #16, JBL)

W: Also found in Wallace’s list of “Colwell Constructions”(Greek Grammar & Syntax)

These are all translated in most Bibles as indefinite predicate nouns. Following John's usage, then we can see that he intended "a god" at John 1:1c.

Colwell formed his rule by using examples which (although anarthrous) are uncertain examples. That is, recognized scholars have stated that abstracts, personal names, "Prepositional" examples ('man of God'; 'son of man'; 'prophet to us'; etc.) are ambiguous concerning definite article use. (Colwell most often used "prepositional" predicate nouns as his "evidence" for his rule.)

In other words, "son of man he is" may be understood as meaning either "He is the son of man" or "He is a son of man." Only context will help decide.

In John 1:1c, should the Greek word θεὸς be translated into English as “a god” or “God”?
I'm not a Greek scholar and don't know much about Colwell's Rule and for all I know it may be incorrect, but I do note that the answer number 14 in the following link agrees with the NWT translation and makes mention that the WT says they used "a god" to express the qualitative nature of "God" in John 1:1c.
Moffat chose to translate it as "divine" for example.
This seems like a better alternative to "a god" since "a god" has a definite theological bias which the context clearly shows to be wrong.
The context I am talking about is John 1:3 which shows that everything that has come into existence came into existence through the Logos, thus showing that the Logos was not created, did not come into existence, has always been in existence and is therefore God in nature even if not in title.
2 being together from eternity and both have not come into existence at any time. And really we know that only God has been in existence from eternity, so the Logos is also God, as the Logos is with and in "the God" His Father, and was in the beginning just as He was while on earth and is now.
So I agree with the NWT saying "god" is qualitative at John 1:1c, but I just disagree with what the JWs see as the context.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Hi @Brian2

Brian2 said : "To me John 1:1-3 is describing the time of the beginning, when nothing had been created, including the angels and heaven etc. (The Word being the one who created all things, meaning He was not created) This was a time when all there was, was God, the only true God, the Father." (post #651)


I don't want to interrupt your debate (as I have done...), but I simply wanted to make a comment about the word “one” that you are using and a quick comment about your concept of conditions at the creation of this world upon which we live.


1) THE CONCEPT OF JEWISH ECHAD VS YACHAD AS IT RELATES TO "ONENESS"

I very much like the fact that you have some historical context and knowledge concerning the Judeo-Christian use of the word that is describing how God the Father and His Son and the Holy Spirit were “one” in early Judeo-Christian tradition. Though we can’t tell from Greek whether Jesus was using אחד or יחד (“one”) still, the concept of use in describing the 12 disciples (Jn 17:11) can apply regardless.

Jesus, in speaking to his Father in prayer, asked for a blessing upon his disciples “… that they may be one, as we are…”. (Jn 17:11)

If Jesus was praying in a form of Hebrew (rather than greek), then he is probably not using the numerical term “one”, but probably the conceptual term “yachad” (i.e. one in purpose and thought and heart…). This was a common religious term applied to those who are committed to the same covenant or who are gathered upon a single principle, (such as those who committed to the same religious covenant.)

In fact, when the association of Messianic Jews in Qumran formed, they designated themselves a ‘yachad’.

To avoid mis-connotations of using various possible english “semi-equivalents”, the “Wise, Abegg and Cook translators of the Dead Sea Scrolls decided not to use the word “community”, but rather they used “yachad”, which was one of the society’s most common self-designations. It is very clear that this “oneness” of a yachad is not a numerical designation, but a conceptual unity of multiple individuals.

For example, יחד (yachad) is used to describe the type of “one ness” and “unity” of the The Father and his son and the Holy Spirit and its often and easily confused with the english numerical term, “one”.

While a judeo-christian “yachad” describing the trinity may be three individuals who are united in a single cosmic purpose (as is the early Christian “Godhead” of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), it may refer to any number who are similar united upon a single covenant and purpose. It is a symbolism that we find in everyday usage. For example, if I buy a cluster of grapes on a single stalk at an israeli market, it can be called a "yachad". The common symbolism is that a group of things are connected to a single principle or purpose

For examples, when CHARTER (1QSa, 1Q28a) describes the banquet–feast in the latter days associated with the arrival of the Messiah, it is a banquet held by the society of the yachad”. This “one-ness” involves a number of individuals united in a single purpose

In describing the PROOF TEXTS of 4Q175 one shared concept which partly created this “oneness” of faith was the societys’ expectations for the coming of the prophet who was like Moses (the greatest prophet); the royal scion of David and a high priest... They were "yachad" and "united" on this point.

In 4Q177, describes the time "...when the men of the yachad flee...". They fled in unison and share in their exile from their land. They are even sharing a “oneness” in the experiences of exile.

1QS, 4Q255-264a, 5Q11 Col 8 describes this unity of the partly as a shared and united acceptance of a covenant of justice; a covenant of “upholding the covenant of eternal (divine) statutes.” . It says that as this way “…is perfected among the men of the Yachad, each walking blamelessly with his fellow”, each person being “… guided by what has been revealed to them.”

As each of this group remain united in the goal of upholding the same covenant and are each maturing in the same direction and each guided toward the same purpose, they are "yachad", "ONE. And this was to occur in the same manner as the apostles were to be "one', Just as the messiah was "one" with the Father.

The concept of “oneness” of a “yachad” is not simply a temporary or societal term, but an eternal religious concept much like the concept of a Christian heaven where individuals are united in living eternal social principles and live together in joy and harmony for ever. Heaven is another type of “yachad”.

That "one-ness" of multiple individuals as a "yachad" was, historically, a principle of "one ness" in heaven as well as an earthly principle is made clear in early texts. For example, in the "Priestly blessing for the last days" in 1Q28b, 1QSb Col. 4 the text says : May you abide forever as an angel of the Presence in the Holy habitation to the glory of the God of hosts. May you serve in the temple of the kingdom of God, ordering destiny with the angels of the presence, a society of the yachad with the holy ones forever, for all the ages of eternity.

This society of individuals in heaven who have become “one” in purpose; one in heart and sentiment and even one in mind and thought as it regards this shared covenant is the concept underlying both Jesus’ prayer for his disciples and it’s great example of the ‘yachad’ which forms the Christian God-head and “unity” involving God the Father, his Son and the Holy Spirit.

I do not know if such ancient principles have any application to your own model of "one-ness" in the society of God the Father, his son the Messiah, and the Holy Spirit, but I thought I would simply describe it for your consideration. In any case, Good luck and good journey Brian@, in forming your own models as to the relationship of God to Jesus, and to the rest of us.

The oneness of Yahweh is seen at Deuteronomy and the word used is Echad.
This is also the word used to describe how 2 can become one (echad) flesh at Genesis 2:24.
2 bodies but one flesh.
3 persons in the Godhead but one Yahweh.
In the Bible the Father is Yahweh, the Son is Yahweh and the Holy Spirit is Yahweh. But Yahweh is One Yahweh (Deut 6:4)
Not 3 different Gods next to each other, but one God alone, Yahweh. The 3 all act together in what they do and so of course are united in purpose and action etc, but there is only one Yahweh.
We can scratch our heads but our complete understanding is not really the test of whether it is true or not.
Henotheism is not really a Biblical option.
The disciples are also said to be one as the Father and Son are one. We are united to each other, many persons but one body, one temple and we are growing in unity and being perfected in our oneness.
It is easy to see the distinctiveness of both God and of the Body of Christ but harder to picture the Oneness. It certainly looks to be more organic (so to speak) than just 3 gods in a huddle or a bunch of people in agreement about doctrines etc. God is united as one Spirit and Christians are united to each other and to God by that one Spirit. But of course we are adopted Children and are creations of God and just human and can grow to the stature of the man Jesus only, as if that is not enough.
We certainly cannot grow and become as God is.

2) IN THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF THIS EARTH - THE JEWISH-TALMUDIC BELIEF THAT THIS WORLD WAS SIMPLY ONE OF MANY THAT WAS CREATED
One last thought.

IF John believed in the Jewish Talmudic claim that this world was simply one of many that had been created, then he may have believed in the Jewish teaching that the specific beginning spoken of in John 1:1 was not the actual beginning of creation just as Genesis 1:1 was not the “beginning” of creation of all things. But instead, was a specific beginning such as the beginning of the creation of THIS SPECIFIC world, as opposed to the many, many worlds that he had created before this one. I don’t think John or Genesis gives us sufficient data to know if John held to this Jewish teaching or not.

We do know that Genesis 1:1 does not mean in “the” beginning, (i.e. it is an indefinite article that is implied in Genesis 1:1 and not a definite article). Thus we see multiple modern bibles changing the first sentence in the bible such that it no longer says "In THE beginning" (which is incorrect in the hebrew-masoretic and implied in the greek by lack of article in the same way john 1:1c lacks the article...)


Good luck @Brian2

Clear
ειτζδρσεσιω

Maybe there are other worlds in this universe but it does not really matter what the Talmud says except that it shows some Jewish thought over the years.
I know Jews have differences of opinion but my discussion with one Jew told me that they believe the "beginning" was the absolute beginning. Not one of many beginnings or just when this universe was created.
Anyway, God revealed things to us in the Bible and some people come along and want to add to that revelation and to even disagree with the Bible in part when they do and then to say the revelation is from God.
Things are possible when they do not disagree with the Bible I guess. I don't know why Bible believers want to believe other things also which do not completely agree with the Bible.
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST ONE OF TWO

Hi @Brian2


THE JEHOVAHS WITNESS TRANSLATION OF JOHN 1:1C IS, GRAMMATICALLY, CORRECT – DISAGREEMENTS ARE BASED ON THEOLOGY, NOT GRAMMAR


Brian2 claimed : “So both context and word order show that John 1:1c should be translated with "God" as not being "the God" of John 1:1b but as being "qualitative" (post #664)

1) WORD ORDER DOES NOT CHANGE THE MEANING OF THE ANTHROUS PHRASE IN JOHN 1:1C

Word order is irrelevant to the lack of article in John 1:1c.

In this specific phrase (John 1:1c), word order makes no difference to this anarthrous translation. For example, it makes no difference whether the phrase is “θεος ην ο λογος” or “ο λογος ην θεος” (lit. "The word is a God" or "a God is the word"). The phrase STILL lacks the article.

Without the article, grammatically Theos is still “a God” grammatically and it is only a historical CONTEXT which overrides the anarthrous grammatical rule. If you know some grammatical situation which defies this most basic rule of Koine, now is the time to share it with readers.

As I said, grammatically, the Jehovahs Witnesses are perfectly correct in their rendering. It is only historical CONTEXT which can tell us what the original author meant to say. Just so that you understand, it doesn't matter to me at all whether the author meant "and the Word is a God" or whether he meant "and the Word was God". It doesn't change my own Christian theological model either way it is translated. Both are fine with me. I am simply speaking of grammatical translation.




2) REGARDING THE APOSTOLIC FATHERS AND THEIR MODEL OF JESUS AND THE FATHER AS SEPARATE INDIVIDUALS

Brian2 said : “Jesus is therefore not a separate God but the Father and Son are together, one God. The Apostolic Fathers also called Jesus their God and did not step away from the one God idea in the Old Testament.” (post #661)
Clear replied : "I am glad you claim familiarity with the Apostolic Fathers. They are, historically, profoundly important. When I read the Apostolic Fathers (which are among the earliest Judeo-Christian documents), they seem to retain the earlier model where Jesus and his Father are different individuals. Can you give me a few quotes from the Apostolic Fathers supporting this specific claim of yours that the Apostolic Fathers describe “the Father and Son are together, one God”? (post #661) emphasis mine

Brian2 replied : “I have not much familiarity but I have read various quotes mentioning Jesus as God." (post #664)

The earliest Judeo-Christian literature such as the Apostolic Fathers tend to describe Jesus/the Messiah and God the Father as different individuals. When I asked for a specific quote from the Apostolic Fathers which you refer to, I am asking for any quote to support your claim that they thought of Jesus and God the Father as “one “God” per your claim in post #661.

The apostolic Fathers were writing in a time when the members of the trinity were still separate individuals (“3=3” type of trinity) rather than the later “3=1” type of trinity where all three make up a single God (in some way).


Examples of “Separateness” and “Heirarchy” (inequality) of individuals in the trinity in Apostolic Fathers literature.

In the earliest model, God the Father is with the Messiah at the creation of this earth but they have back and forth conversation as two individuals would. Thus the apostolic Father barnabas explained : "And furthermore, my brothers: if the Lord submitted to suffer for our souls, even though he is Lord of the whole world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, ALet us make man according to our image and likeness, how is it, then, that he submitted to suffer at the hands of men.?" The Epistle of Barnabas 5:5 (Barnabas repeats this same point in his next chapter.)

In this early model, Jesus, as the Word is not automatically the Messiah of mankind, but instead the Father chooses the Lord Jesus as Messiah. The apostolic Father Clement says : “Finally, may the all-seeing God and Master of spirits and Lord of all flesh, who chose the Lord Jesus Christ, and us through him to be his own special people.." 1 Clement 64:1

Not only is the Messiah chosen to administrate and accomplish the atonement, but it is Jesus, the Messiah who is to administrate and accomplish the creation for the Father. Speaking of God, the Apostolic Father calls God the Father “…the creator of the universe...through his beloved servant Jesus Christ…”

and he speaks of Jesus as a servant of the Father :
“…all of them have chosen those who love you through Jesus Christ, your beloved Servant, through whom you instructed us, sanctified us, honored us.” 1 Clement 59:2-3;

While the Father is “God” inside the early theological model”, Jesus remains a servant of that God. Thus the Apostolic Father taught : "Let all the nations know that you are the only God, that Jesus Christ is your servant, and that Awe are your people and the sheep of your pasture." 1 Clement 59:4;

In the early descriptions, the Apostolic Fathers retain symbolic individualism in describing God and his Father. Thus the Apostolic Father Ignatius speaks of Crocus who “...has refreshed me in every way; may the Father of Jesus Christ likewise refresh him Ignatius to the Ephesians 2:1;

While the judeo-Christian concept of Unity (yachad) was important, the unity of God to Jesus was a model for the type of unity of individuals in the ekklesia (church). Thus the Apostolic Father said : "...I congratulate you who are united with him, as the church is with Jesus Christ and as Jesus Christ is with the father, that all things might be harmonious in unity." Ignatius to the Ephesians 5:1

The concept of individuality and hierarchy in the trinity carried over into the description of how the Son was subject to the Father (and never is the Father subject to anything else). The Apostolic Father Ignatius tells the church : “ Be subject to the Bishop and to one another, as Jesus Christ in the flesh was to the Father..." Ignatius to the Magnesians 13:2.

The early model of the resurrection is that Jesus did not resurrect himself, but instead was resurrected by God, the Father. To the Trallians, the apostolic Father Bishop Ignatius says of Jesus "... who, moreover, really was raised from the dead when his Father raised him up, who his Father, that is in the same way will likewise also raise us up…." Ignatius to the Trallians 9:2;

The Apostolic Father Polycarp, similarly, speaking also of the resurrection, speaks of God the Father who raised up Jesus, will raise us up as well, saying : “But he who raised him [Jesus] from the dead will raise us also,..." Polycarp to the Philippians 2:2;

Polycarp repeats this concept that Jesus did not resurrect himself, but rather it is God the Father who resurrected Jesus: "...may he give to you a share and a place among his saints, and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead." The Letter of Polycarp to the Philippians 12:2;

The point is that the Apostolic Fathers frequently speak of God the Father and Jesus as separate individuals with differing levels of authority and knowledge and abilities (rather than as being “exactly like” one another). Thus, when you said : “The Apostolic Fathers also called Jesus their God and did not step away from the one God idea…” Brian2 in post #661, I asked for specific quotes to support your claim. Do you have specific quotes from the Apostolic Fathers that might support this claim you made?



3) REGARDING THE PHRASE THAT JESUS "IS EXACTLY LIKE" HIS FATHER

Clear asked Brian2 "I notice you repeatedly use the description that Jesus (i.e. the Son, the Messiah) is “exactly like” his Father. Where are you sourcing this description “exactly like”? Are you getting it from someone who created an english bible or another source?"
Brian2 replied : “I get that from various parts of scripture which show the Son to be the same nature as His Father and equal to His Father and basically exactly like Him and having the same glory. “ (post #664)
Brian2 quotes Heb 1:3 in support. The version Brian2 quotes is : “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.” (post #664)



THE PARAPHRASE OF HEB 1:3 YOU ARE USING IS IN ERROR

This paraphrase (it is not a translation) is incorrect and it does NOT say “the exact representation of his being” and we do not have any Greek source text that says this.

The underlying Greek of this phrase is “Ος ων απαυγασμα της δοξες και Χαρακτηρ της υποστασεως). There are no words for “exact representation” in the greek source text in this phrase. GN-4 translators text shows no Greek variant that says this. NA-28 has no such variation. Your source data upon which you base this phrase “exactly alike” is incorrect.

Your translation is trying to render χαρακτηρ as "exact representation". This is not what it means.

Regarding the Greek word χαρακτηρ (it is the word “Character” in English).
We speak nowadays of a person’s “character” and in doing so, we are generally speaking of his morals, work ethics, etc. However Χαρακτηρ meant more than that anciently. Moulton and Milligan followed the early meaning and useage from “the tool for engraving” to it’s later usage as the “mark” or “impression” made by the tool. So that the word came to represent a reproduction.

For example, a χαρακτηρ / Character pressed into wax by a seal was NOT the seal itself, but rather it represented the seal and was a close enough representation that whoever made the Character,also had access to the seal and was seen as authorized. The Character represented the seal. Some of the early papyri also do refer to Characters as people of a certain type.

My point is that the word χαρακτηρ/Character does not represent exactness or equality such that Jesus is “exact alike” his Father, nor that they are the same being, but that they are similar as a stamp is to its character or that they came in a degree of authority of another whose seal they bore.

Any translation that uses the word “exact representation” is simply incorrect, there is no word for “exact” in ANY of the greek manuscripts in Heb 1:3 in ANY critical greek text. Thus it is an example of the translators theology, contaminating the text they created.

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST TWO OF TWO

The famous translators controversy surrounding Hebrews 1:3
As a side note, my Avatar is a picture of Hebrew 1:3 from codex Vaticanus. This is an ironic coincidence to this example since the reference Heb 1:3 is a famous example of mistakes and changes made to early Greek texts.

The original codex read “He reflects the glory of God and [bears] the stamp of his nature, upholding (or bringing forth / carrying / gk φερων) the universe by his word of power." A later corrector (of three correctors) scratched out “upholding” (φερων) and inserted “revealing” (φανερων) into the phrase. A third corrector from another century scratched out the correction and “re-corrected” the word to read “upholding” (φερων – carrying, bring to pass, etc.). The third corrector of the manuscript inserts the comments in the left margin (shown in my avatar next to my name "clear" on this page) which reads “fool and knave, leave the old [reading], don’t change it!”. (There are multiple theories as to why the second corrector changed this phrase.)

At any rate, mistakes can be introduced not only by changing the actual text but due to improper translation as well. “Exact representation” is an error. You are welcome to make an argument for "exact representation" if you want.

In any case :

My first point is that the Jehovahs Witnesses are perfectly correct in rendering John 1:1c as "...and the Word was a God" and any argument against this translation must be made from the standpoint of historical CONTEXT and not from an argument over GRAMMAR. Grammatically, they are correct.

The second point is that I do not think the Apostolic Fathers viewed Jesus as an "exact representation" of the Father, but that there were differences between these two individuals in their literature. There was a heirarchy in that relationship between Jesus the Messiah and God his Father.

In any case, I hope your spiritual journey is wonderful and insightful and joyful Brian2.

I ran out of time and will have to comment on your second post later. I am at work and typing between appointments. See you Brian2

Clear
ειτζσεσεδρω
 
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TiggerII

Active Member
No doubt it is not your fault that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society misquotes scholars and Church Fathers and makes them sounds as if they agree with JW doctrine.
Why does the WatchTower misquote the Church Fathers? | Yahoo Answers

The statements I have quoted are from my personal library (excepting the Revue d' Histoire...) and have been quoted by ME.

The study of John 1:1c was done by me personally, and I vouch for its accuracy! You will note that , although I agree with the NWT translation of John 1:1c ("a god"), I do not accept the so-called "Qualitative rule." As I wrote above, John 1:1c ("a god") is, like all the other parallel examples in John's writings, indefinite.

Why don't you actually look up the quotes I have given before you criticize my work?

Why don't you look up my 19 parallel examples to John 1:1c and see how all Bibles translate them? Are they really "Qualitative"?

Have I overlooked any other proper examples in John's writings?
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi, Clear. Very good interpretation of what Colwell said. Thanks.

Hi YoursTrue.

I am actually quoting Colwell rather than simply interpreting him. Colwell himself understood, admitted and explained that his own "rule" is overruled by historical context. His and other so-called grammatical "rules" are often misunderstood and misconstrued for theological purposes.

While I am not Jehovahs Witness, I do understand that the individuals who argue the Jehovahs Witnesses are incorrect MUST, at some point, turn to their own theological context to argue the J.Witnesses are in error on John 1:1c since, grammatically, it is clear that Jehovahs Witnesses are correct on the point of grammar regarding John 1:1c.

It is interesting to me to see the attempts to pass off or clothe theological arguments as grammatical arguments. Tigger2 has done some nice work on the grammar of John 1:1c. While I disagree with some of the J.Witness theology, their grammar on John 1:1c is perfectly fine.

Hope your journey is good

Clear
ειτζσιδρδρω
 
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Brian2

Veteran Member
The statements I have quoted are from my personal library (excepting the Revue d' Histoire...) and have been quoted by ME.

Maybe I should go back and answer your quotes instead of just dismissing them.

The study of John 1:1c was done by me personally, and I vouch for its accuracy! You will note that , although I agree with the NWT translation of John 1:1c ("a god"), I do not accept the so-called "Qualitative rule." As I wrote above, John 1:1c ("a god") is, like all the other parallel examples in John's writings, indefinite.

Why don't you actually look up the quotes I have given before you criticize my work?

Why don't you look up my 19 parallel examples to John 1:1c and see how all Bibles translate them? Are they really "Qualitative"?

Have I overlooked any other proper examples in John's writings?

When I read the 19 examples you gave it strikes me that each one is showing the predicate to not be a particular person, but as possessing the qualities of the group identified. Thus "a Jew" means "Jewish", "a Smaritan" meant "Samaritanish" :) "a sinner" means "one who sins (has the qualities of the group sinners). etc They would be translated as they have been into English because it is the best way to do it to show the Greek meaning------they they possessed the qualities of that group.
To translate "theos" either as "a god" or as "God" would carry theological implications and could be seen as biased. This is why I think that "divine"(or equivalent) is a better alternative as in English it does not mean the the Logos is "the God" and it does not mean that the Logos is another god. It seems that the NWT is said by the WT to have been translated with the quality meaning of "theos" in mind as so translated as "a god". This however, along with the translation of "God" does not bring out the quality meaning of "theos" in English and so both are just theologically biased.
If either is going to be used at all it has to be the context which determines this.
In the case of John 1 the context shows that the Logos was not created or did not come into existence. This means that the Logos possesses the qualities of "the God" including never having been created. This means the Logos is God as much as "The God" is God.
So why is the Logos not called "the God"? Because there is more than one person/consciousness who possesses the qualities of "the God" but these persons/consciousnesses are in "the God" and gain their existence in and from "the God". They are distinct but are one with and in "the God".
The Jews knew what Jesus meant when He said He is in the Father (and the Father is in Him) and when He said that He and the Father are one. These were blasphemous statements in the Jewish theology of God and Jesus does not deny them because the Jewish theology of God, their understanding of the Torah was and is wrong--------------imo.
From the site below I will add a quote from Jason BeDuhn
Who is the Word in John 1:1

<<<ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:1 1881 (WHNU)

1 εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος

TRUTH IN TRANSLATION

This is an extract from the above book by Jason David BeDuhn, professor of religious studies at Nothern Arizona University

Under chapter eleven-headed: "And the Word was..what?"

Quote: "Grammatically, John1:1c is not a difficult verse to translate. It follows familiar ordinary structures of the Greek expression. A lexical (interlinear) translation of the controversial clause would read: "and a god was the Word." A minimal literal (formal equivalence) translation would rearrange the word order to match proper English expression: "And the Word was a god." The preponderance of the evidence, from Greek grammar, from literary context, and from cultural environment supports this translation, of which "the Word was divine." would be a slightly more polished variant carrying the same meaning. Both of these renderings are superior to the traditional translation which goes against these three key factors that guide accurate translation.

Understanding John 1:1c accurately.

John Harner, in his article, "Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns: Mark 15:39 and John 1:1," presents a much more careful, systematic analysis of the same type of sentences studied by Colwell. Harner does not predetermine which predicate nouns are definite. Instead, he investigates all predicate nouns that do not have the definite article and compares those that appear before the verb with those that appear after the verb. based on his investigation, he concludes that, "anarthrous predicate noun preceding the verb may function primarily to express the nature or character of the subject, and this qualitative significance may be more important than the question whether the predicate noun itself should be regarded as a definite." (Harner 1973 page 75).

In other words, Greek has a particular way of expressing the nature or character of something that employs predicate nouns before the verb and without the article, just as in John 1:1. The nature or character of ho logos ("the Word") is theos ("divine") The professor examines some sentences structured like John 1:1c and the meaning they convey.

Quote: " The setting is Pilate's exchange with Jesus. In John 18:35, Pilate asks,"Am I a Jew "( ego Uoudaios eimi? )" The predicate noun here appears before the verb and without the article as it does in John 1:1, and clearly is indefinite in meaning, "a Jew," Two verses later, he asks Jesus. "Are you a king?"(basileus ei su?). Here is the exact syntax as John 1:1--the predicate noun precedes the verb, the subject follows it, and the predicate noun lacks the definite article. Yet Pilate is asking if Jesus is "a king," not " the king." Jesus' answer in the same verse uses the same basic construction: "You say that I am a king (su legeis hoti basileus eimi)......."

As the story continues, the opponents of Jesus provide, through John's report, a basic lesson in the distinction between definite and indefinite constructions of Greek. Seeing the placard placed over the crucified Jesus, they tell Pilate: "Do not write"The king of the Jews,' but that this one said, "I am a king of the Jews'" (John 19:21). They try to distance Jesus from the royal title by two moves; first by making it clear that it is merely a claim, and second by changing the title itself from "the king" (basileus without the article, before the be-verb."

Harner argues for an English speaking audience, that if "the" is used with the predicate nouns, the qualitative sense will be lost. The use of "a" conveys that the qualitative sense.

For example, in John 4:19 we must translate "You are a prophet,"not "You are the prophet." In John 8:48 it is "You are a Samaritan." not "you are the Samaritan." In John 12:6 it must be "He was a thief," not "he was the thief."In John 9:24 "This man is a sinner" not "this man is the sinner". Notice that this is not a case of how we say things in English dictating the Greek, but a matter of choosing the English that best communicates what the Greek means.

Conclusion.

If this verse were interpreted to mean Jesus was himself God Almighty, it would contradict the preceding statement, “the Word was with God.” Someone who is “with” another person cannot be the same as that other person. Many Bible translations thus draw a distinction, making clear that the Word was not God, Three great translators of the Greek scriptures, translate John 1:1c, into English "the Word was divine" (James Moffat, Edgar J Goodspeed, and Westcott )

Over fifty Bible verses in John's writings have a construction similar to that of John 1:1c. For example, when referring to Herod Agrippa I, the crowds shouted: ‘It is a god speaking.’ And when Paul survived a bite by a poisonous snake, the people said: “He is a god.” (Acts 12:22; 28:3-6) It is in harmony with both Greek grammar and Bible teaching to speak of the Word as, not God, but “a god.”—John 1:1c.

Just a few verses down in the same chapter (Vs 14 ) John tells us the "Word" became "flesh", not God and Vs 18 reads (KJV ):"18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." Has any human seen Jesus Christ, the Son? Of course! So, then, was John saying that Jesus was God? Obviously not. Towards the end of his Gospel, John summarized matters, saying: " But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ,[ not God, but] the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." John 20:31 KJV,[ not God, but] words in bracket entered in verse by me.>>>
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Hi YoursTrue.

I am actually quoting Colwell rather than simply interpreting him. Colwell himself understood, admitted and explained that his own "rule" is overruled by historical context. His and other so-called grammatical "rules" are often misunderstood and misconstrued for theological purposes.

While I am not Jehovahs Witness, I do understand that the individuals who argue the Jehovahs Witnesses are incorrect MUST, at some point, turn to their own theological context to argue the J.Witnesses are in error on John 1:1c since, grammatically, it is clear that Jehovahs Witnesses are correct on the point of grammar regarding John 1:1c.

It is interesting to me to see the attempts to pass off or clothe theological arguments as grammatical arguments. Tigger2 has done some nice work on the grammar of John 1:1c. While I disagree with some of the J.Witness theology, their grammar on John 1:1c is perfectly fine.

Hope your journey is good

Clear
ειτζσιδρδρω
Thank you, Clear. My journey is getting better and better. I hope for the best for you also. Words are words and can be misapplied or misinterpreted, so thank you for pointing out what is known as Colwell's Rule as he was brave enough, shall we say, to give the rule or explanation of interpretation or absolute grammar. :)
As I keep examiing concepts (meaning also interpretations) as well as scripture, the light, as they say, and which I also am happy to say, gets brighter and brighter. But it takes time. Taking time. :)
Best to you. Regards, YoursTrue
P.S. Just as "we know gravity by happenstance" (something I read in the preface to a book about Albert Einstein), I don't think we will have knowledge of everything even with everlasting life. After all, you're you, I'm me, and we're all limited.
 
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Oeste

Well-Known Member
POST ONE OF TWO

Hi @Brian2


THE JEHOVAHS WITNESS TRANSLATION OF JOHN 1:1C IS, GRAMMATICALLY, CORRECT – DISAGREEMENTS ARE BASED ON THEOLOGY, NOT GRAMMAR

I would say that the WT's translation of John 1:1C is grammatically possible, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it is 'grammatically correct' because that may be stretching things a bit too far.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "grammatically correct". Are you saying the NWT's John 1:1C is a grammatically correct translation (indefinite), or are you saying it is the grammatically (definite) translation?

Brian2 claimed : “So both context and word order show that John 1:1c should be translated with "God" as not being "the God" of John 1:1b but as being "qualitative" (post #664)

1) WORD ORDER DOES NOT CHANGE THE MEANING OF THE ANTHROUS PHRASE IN JOHN 1:1C

Word order is irrelevant to the lack of article in John 1:1c.

In this specific phrase (John 1:1c), word order makes no difference to this anarthrous translation. For example, it makes no difference whether the phrase is “θεος ην ο λογος” or “ο λογος ην θεος” (lit. "The word is a God" or "a God is the word"). The phrase STILL lacks the article.

Incorrect...WORD ORDER CHANGES THE MEANING

The word order of John 1:1c makes a HUGE difference within the historic, Orthodox church. As far as I know the LDS have never had to deal with issues of Sabellianism within their ranks. Quite simply, had the word order been changed by John, Trinitarians would be either Arian or Sabellian now.


Without the article, grammatically Theos is still “a God” grammatically and it is only a historical CONTEXT which overrides the anarthrous grammatical rule. If you know some grammatical situation which defies this most basic rule of Koine, now is the time to share it with readers.

I think you would agree (since you've already pointed it out) that "a God" (indefinite) defies the "basic rule of Koine" as there is no indefinite article. It's only when we attempt to translate that the issue pops up.

Just so that you understand, it doesn't matter to me at all whether the author meant "and the Word is a God" or whether he meant "and the Word was God". It doesn't change my own Christian theological model either way it is translated. Both are fine with me. I am simply speaking of grammatical translation.

I understand your point here, but when defending what I consider a "mainstream Orthodox position" on John 1:1c, Trinitarians must be cognizant of other points of view as well. There are many Modalists on this forum who would welcome a change in word order.

As Daniel Wallace puts it:

“We know that “the Word” is the subject because it has the definite article, and we translate it accordingly: “and the Word was God.”​
Two questions, both of them of theological import, should come to mind:

1) Why was θεὸς (Theos) thrown forward? And
2) why does it lack the article?

In brief, its emphatic position stresses its essence or quality: “What God was, the Word was” is how one translation brings out this force. Its lack of a definite article keeps us from identifying the person of the Word ( Jesus Christ) with the person of “God” (the Father). That is to say, the word order tells us that Jesus Christ has all the divine attributes that the Father has; lack of the article tells us that Jesus Christ is not the Father. John’s wording here is beautifully compact! It is, in fact, one of the most elegantly terse theological statements one could ever find. As Martin Luther said, the lack of an article is against Sabellianism [Modalism]; the word order is against Arianism.

To state it another way, look at how the different Greek constructions would be rendered:

καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν ὁ θεὸς = “and the Word was the God” ( ie, the Father, Sabellianism, [or Modalism])

καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν θεὸς = “and the Word was a god” (Arianism) [also Jehovah’s Witness theology]

καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος “and the Word was God” (orthodoxy) [sound, Biblical doctrine)

Jesus Christ is God and has all the attributes that the Father has. But He is not the first person of the Trinity. [the Son is not the Father] All this is concisely affirmed in καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. “​


2) REGARDING THE APOSTOLIC FATHERS AND THEIR MODEL OF JESUS AND THE FATHER AS SEPARATE INDIVIDUALS...

...The apostolic Fathers were writing in a time when the members of the trinity were still separate individuals (“3=3” type of trinity) rather than the later “3=1” type of trinity where all three make up a single God (in some way)...

I'm not sure what you mean by this. All 3 individuals are God, but there is only one God. Given the traditional and known position of the historic church, I think it would be incumbent upon others to show that the Church Fathers believed there were 3 Gods if that is what you are implying.

Also Trinitarians use persons (distinct hypostastes) which share one ousia (essence, substance, being) rather than the term "individuals" as the latter implies a separateness of selfhood.

...The point is that the Apostolic Fathers frequently speak of God the Father and Jesus as separate individuals with differing levels of authority and knowledge and abilities (rather than as being “exactly like” one another).

They are exactly alike in that they are God but they are not the exact same individuals. That would be Sabellianism.

Thus, when you said : “The Apostolic Fathers also called Jesus their God and did not step away from the one God idea…” Brian2 in post #661, I asked for specific quotes to support your claim. Do you have specific quotes from the Apostolic Fathers that might support this claim you made?

To be honest, I think it more incumbent on others to show that the church Fathers deviated substantially from scripture, but here's a quote just the same:

Ignatius (30–107ad)

Since, also, there is but one unbegotten Being, God, even the Father; and one only-begotten Son, God, the Word and man; and one Comforter, the Spirit of truth; and also one preaching, and one faith, and one baptism; The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians Chapter IV​

Ireneaus (120–202 ad)

The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father “to gather all things in one,” . . .Against Heresies Book I Chapter X

Therefore neither would the Lord, nor the Holy Spirit, nor the apostles, have ever named as God, definitely and absolutely, him who was not God, unless he were truly God; nor would they have named any one in his own person Lord, except God the Father ruling over all, and His Son who has received dominion from His Father over all creation, as this passage has it: “The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit Thou at my right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool.” Here the [Scripture] represents to us the Father addressing the Son; He who gave Him the inheritance of the heathen, and subjected to Him all His enemies. Since, therefore, the Father is truly Lord, and the Son truly Lord, the Holy Spirit has fitly designated them by the title of Lord.
Against Heresies Book III Chapter VI

Look, we know certain "church Fathers" may have had some strange beliefs but I think it's mistake to take a particular statement and then apply it to the church as the whole. For example, Justin Martyr would have no problem declaring Plato, Socrates, and Heraclitis as "early Christians" but I don't see how you would take his particular belief and apply it to the entire church. Justin is remembered as a Greek philosopher turned Christian, an apologist who defended the church against accusations of atheism, a saint to some but a man of impeccable faith in Christ, who gladly surrendered his life rather than worship an idol.

Even so, we are not Justinites, Ignatiusians, nor are we Ireneausians. Doctrinal authority for the Trinity derives from scripture, and not from Justin, Ireneaus or others.

Examples of “Separateness” and “Heirarchy” (inequality) of individuals in the trinity in Apostolic Fathers literature.


I'm not going to address everything you quoted here, but I'll take a few:

In the earliest model, God the Father is with the Messiah at the creation of this earth but they have back and forth conversation as two individuals would. Thus the apostolic Father barnabas explained : "And furthermore, my brothers: if the Lord submitted to suffer for our souls, even though he is Lord of the whole world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, A Let us make man according to our image and likeness, how is it, then, that he submitted to suffer at the hands of men.?" The Epistle of Barnabas 5:5 (Barnabas repeats this same point in his next chapter.)

The Father and Christ are not one person but two, so of course they can talk back and forth with each other. We saw many examples of this while Jesus was on earth.

While Christ lived on earth he was always submissive to the Father. This does not mean he wasn't God. It just means he was also man.

Jesus at all times retained his nature as God. In fact, as I pointed out to the Jehovah Witnesses and other Arians on board here, the entire temptation of Christ makes no sense whatsoever if Jesus is just man.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member



Polycarp repeats this concept that Jesus did not resurrect himself, but rather it is God the Father who resurrected Jesus: "...may he give to you a share and a place among his saints, and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead." The Letter of Polycarp to the Philippians 12:2;

I see where Polycarp states the Father raised Jesus, but what I don't see is where Polycarp states Jesus did not raise himself. Can you point out where Polycarp states Jesus did not resurrect himself?

Jesus states he raised himself at John 10:18, as shown in red above. This does not mean he beat the Father to it, or that the Father failed to raise Jesus. As I see it, all 3 persons of the Trinity were involved.

Nothing has changed.
God did send his son to dieGalatians 4: 4-5, “But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.” 1 John 4: 9-10, “By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.”

Jesus also volunteered to be the one to die. John 10:11-18, “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.


3) REGARDING THE PHRASE THAT JESUS "IS EXACTLY LIKE" HIS FATHER
Clear asked Brian2 "I notice you repeatedly use the description that Jesus (i.e. the Son, the Messiah) is “exactly like” his Father. Where are you sourcing this description “exactly like”? Are you getting it from someone who created an english bible or another source?"
Brian2 replied : “I get that from various parts of scripture which show the Son to be the same nature as His Father and equal to His Father and basically exactly like Him and having the same glory. “ (post #664)
Brian2 quotes Heb 1:3 in support. The version Brian2 quotes is : “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.” (post #664)


THE PARAPHRASE OF HEB 1:3 YOU ARE USING IS IN ERROR

I think the translation is fine.

This paraphrase (it is not a translation) is incorrect and it does NOT say “the exact representation of his being” and we do not have any Greek source text that says this...

...Your translation is trying to render χαρακτηρ as "exact representation". This is not what it means.

χαρακτὴρ (charaktēr) — 1 Occurrence

Hebrews 1:3 N-NMS
GRK: δόξης καὶ χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως

NAS: of His glory and the exact representation of His nature,
KJV: and the express image of his
INT: glory and [the] exact expression of the substance​

Your dispute is not with @Brian2, but with the translation committees shown above.

My point is that the word χαρακτηρ/Character does not represent exactness or equality such that Jesus is “exact alike” his Father, nor that they are the same being, but that they are similar as a stamp is to its character or that they came in a degree of authority of another whose seal they bore.

STRONG's #5481 xaraktḗr – properly, an engraving; (figuratively) an exact impression (likeness) which also reflects inner character.

[5481 /xaraktḗr was originally a tool (used for engraving) and then came to mean "a die" ("mould"). Finally it stood for a stamp or impress used on a coin or seal (see H, 368). In each case, the stamp conveyed the reality behind the image.]​

Any translation that uses the word “exact representation” is simply incorrect, there is no word for “exact” in ANY of the greek manuscripts in Heb 1:3 in ANY critical greek text. Thus it is an example of the translators theology, contaminating the text they created.

If the stamp (Jesus, as Son of Man) does not represent the exact representation, express image, or the exact expression of His nature... if he (the stamp) deviates one iota to the left or to the right...then we are all in trouble as his sacrifice was in vain.

When we mint coins each coin is stamped with the image on the dye. In some cases the image is made imperfectly but it does not affect the value of the coin. In fact, in modern times the coin may actually be worth more as it would now be considered a collector's item.

However, when we are talking about God's nature or character, an imperfect impression is insufficient. It is no longer worth the intended value, It does not increase in value but becomes worthless. In this instance, I think "the express image" or "exact expression" conveys the original intent of the author to the reader.

It's late, I have a full day tomorrow (actually a full few weeks) but I'll try to respond as soon as I can. As it is, I have to stay up late (it's 1:40 am) just to write this.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi @Oeste


1) CORRECTNESS OF GRAMMAR VERSUS CORRECTNESS OF CONTENT
Oeste said : “I would say that the WT's translation of John 1:1C is grammatically possible, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it is 'grammatically correct' because that may be stretching things a bit too far.” Post #676

This is simply an admission that you don’t know koine Greek. The J.W. version of John 1:1c is grammatically correct.

If I say “The boy was a redhead.” It is a grammatically correct sentence. You may argue that the boy is actually a blond (context), but the sentence itself is grammatically correct.

If I want to translate the sentence “The word was a God.” Into Koine Greek. I would say or write “Ο λογος ην θεος.” (word order doesn’t matter). These are the exact words of John 1:1c. Ask someone you trust who knows Koine if they can think of any other way to write this sentence in greek other than word order (which won't change the sentence grammatically).



2) THE CLAIM THAT WORD ORDER MAKES A "HUGE" DIFFERENCE IN JOHN 1:1C

Clear said : “Word order is irrelevant to the lack of article in John 1:1c. In this specific phrase (John 1:1c), word order makes no difference to this anarthrous translation. For example, it makes no difference whether the phrase is “θεος ην ο λογος” or “ο λογος ην θεος” (lit. "The word is a God" or "a God is the word"). The phrase STILL lacks the article.”
Oeste said The word order of John 1:1c makes a HUGE difference within the historic, Orthodox church.” ) Post #676

How does any change in word order in the phrase “και θεος ην ο λογος" create an articulated sentence out of an unarticulated sentence?
How does a change in word order make a "HUGE" difference in this phrase?



3) THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, THE ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD, THE WORD AND MAN - Lack of Textual clarity and the source of many debates

Oeste said : “To be honest, I think it more incumbent on others to show that the church Fathers deviated substantially from scripture… but here's a quote just the same:
Ignatius (30–107ad)
Since, also, there is but one unbegotten Being, God, even the Father; and one only-begotten Son, God, the Word and man; and one Comforter, the Spirit of truth; and also one preaching, and one faith, and one baptism; The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians Chapter IV (post #677)

Ignatius is an Apostolic Father (the “church fathers” were a later group of writing). I’m not sure what point you are trying to make with this statement. For example, while Jesus is “a God”, he is also “the God” in early Judeo-Christian literature. The difficulty and root of many of the debates about the relationship of God the Father with his Son often has to do with conflicting descriptions and lack of clarity in the biblical text.

For example, the text of John 1:18 says “No one has ever seen God. The only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father explained(expounded upon) him”. The Greek is “θεον οטδεις εωρακεν πωποτε μονογενης θεος ο ων εις τον κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο.”.

Does the “only begotten God” in the second sentence refer to God the Father? If so, how is he then a “begotten God” when Ignatius (and others) speak of the Father as being “unbegotten”? The text is not perfectly clear about the relationship of the individuals who make up the trinity. Thus we have had debates about the trinity for over fifteen hundred years and the biblical text has not resolved the debates.



4) REGARDING THE HIERARCHY OF GOD THE FATHER, HIS SON/SERVANT/MESSIAH, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IN EARLY SACRED LITERATURE

Regarding the quote from Polycarp : "...may he give to you a share and a place among his saints, and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead." The Letter of Polycarp to the Philippians 12:2;


Oeste said : “I see where Polycarp states the Father raised Jesus, but what I don't see is where Polycarp states Jesus did not raise himself. Can you point out where Polycarp states Jesus did not resurrect himself? Jesus states he raised himself at John 10:18, as shown in red above. This does not mean he beat the Father to it, or that the Father failed to raise Jesus. (POST #677)


Actually the text doesn’t say Jesus “raised himself”. Look at the verse more carefully.

Jesus, in John 10:17 says “Because of this the Father loves me, that I lay down my soul to take it again.
Verse 18 says “No one takes it from me but I lay it down by my own authority (εξουσιαν) and I have authority (εξουσιαν) to take it again. This commandment (εντολην) I received from my Father.

God the Father as a source of religious authority and power

I don’t know what specific role Jesus might have played in the specific mechanism/process of his own resurrection, partly because the ancient literature doesn’t speak to the actual mechanism of resurrection in any specific manner close to a typical scientific paper. However, the earliest Judeo-Christian literature speaks of basic principles such as God the Father, as the source of power and authority for things such as the shuffling and organizing of elements.

Portions of that power and authority to perform actions for God are delegated from God to others such as to the servant/Son/Messiah/Jesus. Thus, when the Apostolic Fathers and others describe the early doctrine that God the Father raised Jesus from the dead they are speaking from that model.

So while Jesus had authority to take up his own "soul" (whatever that meant to the original writer), he received the authority from and was commanded to do this by God, his Father. I think one can argue that the ancient Christians believed that Jesus may have participated in his own resurrection in some way or other, but it was clear that they believed the Messiah Jesus received the authority and commission from God, who was the source of that authority and power.

I’ve not seen a logical argument where Jesus “gives himself authority” or “commands himself” to do these things.




5) REGARDING THE CREATION OF DOCTRINE OR BELIEFS BASED ON INCORRECT TRANSLATION

Regarding Hebrews 1:3

Oeste said : “Your dispute is not with @Brian2, but with the translation committees shown above”


This thread initially had to do with claim that Jehovahs Witness mistranslated a text to create (or actually to support) a specific doctrine.

My point to Brian2 was that since Hebrews 1:3 implies similarity but the text does not imply “exactness”, then creating a belief or doctrine of “exact representation” from “representation” based on an incorrect translation is the same mechanism for which the Jehovahs Witnesses are being criticized.

While a (gk χαραγμα) such as a statue or a bust of a picture of a person was similar to the person, it was not an indication of exactness. In fact, often pictures and statues and busts were purposefully different than the original. The Greek HAD words for exactness and χαρακτηρ was not one of them.

In any Case Oeste, I hope your own journey and insights are wonderful.



Hi @YoursTrue

Thanks for the kind words. I hope your journey is good as well.

Clear
ειτζακσεφυω
 
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TiggerII

Active Member
Maybe I should go back and answer your quotes instead of just dismissing them.



When I read the 19 examples you gave it strikes me that each one is showing the predicate to not be a particular person, but as possessing the qualities of the group identified. Thus "a Jew" means "Jewish", "a Smaritan" meant "Samaritanish" :) "a sinner" means "one who sins (has the qualities of the group sinners). etc They would be translated as they have been into English because it is the best way to do it to show the Greek meaning------they they possessed the qualities of that group.
To translate "theos" either as "a god" or as "God" would carry theological implications and could be seen as biased. This is why I think that "divine"(or equivalent) is a better alternative as in English it does not mean the the Logos is "the God" and it does not mean that the Logos is another god. It seems that the NWT is said by the WT to have been translated with the quality meaning of "theos" in mind as so translated as "a god". This however, along with the translation of "God" does not bring out the quality meaning of "theos" in English and so both are just theologically biased.
If either is going to be used at all it has to be the context which determines this.
In the case of John 1 the context shows that the Logos was not created or did not come into existence. This means that the Logos possesses the qualities of "the God" including never having been created. This means the Logos is God as much as "The God" is God.
So why is the Logos not called "the God"? Because there is more than one person/consciousness who possesses the qualities of "the God" but these persons/consciousnesses are in "the God" and gain their existence in and from "the God". They are distinct but are one with and in "the God".
The Jews knew what Jesus meant when He said He is in the Father (and the Father is in Him) and when He said that He and the Father are one. These were blasphemous statements in the Jewish theology of God and Jesus does not deny them because the Jewish theology of God, their understanding of the Torah was and is wrong--------------imo.
From the site below I will add a quote from Jason BeDuhn
Who is the Word in John 1:1

<<<ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 1:1 1881 (WHNU)

1 εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος

TRUTH IN TRANSLATION

This is an extract from the above book by Jason David BeDuhn, professor of religious studies at Nothern Arizona University

Under chapter eleven-headed: "And the Word was..what?"

Quote: "Grammatically, John1:1c is not a difficult verse to translate. It follows familiar ordinary structures of the Greek expression. A lexical (interlinear) translation of the controversial clause would read: "and a god was the Word." A minimal literal (formal equivalence) translation would rearrange the word order to match proper English expression: "And the Word was a god." The preponderance of the evidence, from Greek grammar, from literary context, and from cultural environment supports this translation, of which "the Word was divine." would be a slightly more polished variant carrying the same meaning. Both of these renderings are superior to the traditional translation which goes against these three key factors that guide accurate translation.

Understanding John 1:1c accurately.

John Harner, in his article, "Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns: Mark 15:39 and John 1:1," presents a much more careful, systematic analysis of the same type of sentences studied by Colwell. Harner does not predetermine which predicate nouns are definite. Instead, he investigates all predicate nouns that do not have the definite article and compares those that appear before the verb with those that appear after the verb. based on his investigation, he concludes that, "anarthrous predicate noun preceding the verb may function primarily to express the nature or character of the subject, and this qualitative significance may be more important than the question whether the predicate noun itself should be regarded as a definite." (Harner 1973 page 75).

In other words, Greek has a particular way of expressing the nature or character of something that employs predicate nouns before the verb and without the article, just as in John 1:1. The nature or character of ho logos ("the Word") is theos ("divine") The professor examines some sentences structured like John 1:1c and the meaning they convey.

Quote: " The setting is Pilate's exchange with Jesus. In John 18:35, Pilate asks,"Am I a Jew "( ego Uoudaios eimi? )" The predicate noun here appears before the verb and without the article as it does in John 1:1, and clearly is indefinite in meaning, "a Jew," Two verses later, he asks Jesus. "Are you a king?"(basileus ei su?). Here is the exact syntax as John 1:1--the predicate noun precedes the verb, the subject follows it, and the predicate noun lacks the definite article. Yet Pilate is asking if Jesus is "a king," not " the king." Jesus' answer in the same verse uses the same basic construction: "You say that I am a king (su legeis hoti basileus eimi)......."

As the story continues, the opponents of Jesus provide, through John's report, a basic lesson in the distinction between definite and indefinite constructions of Greek. Seeing the placard placed over the crucified Jesus, they tell Pilate: "Do not write"The king of the Jews,' but that this one said, "I am a king of the Jews'" (John 19:21). They try to distance Jesus from the royal title by two moves; first by making it clear that it is merely a claim, and second by changing the title itself from "the king" (basileus without the article, before the be-verb."

Harner argues for an English speaking audience, that if "the" is used with the predicate nouns, the qualitative sense will be lost. The use of "a" conveys that the qualitative sense.

For example, in John 4:19 we must translate "You are a prophet,"not "You are the prophet." In John 8:48 it is "You are a Samaritan." not "you are the Samaritan." In John 12:6 it must be "He was a thief," not "he was the thief."In John 9:24 "This man is a sinner" not "this man is the sinner". Notice that this is not a case of how we say things in English dictating the Greek, but a matter of choosing the English that best communicates what the Greek means.

Conclusion.

If this verse were interpreted to mean Jesus was himself God Almighty, it would contradict the preceding statement, “the Word was with God.” Someone who is “with” another person cannot be the same as that other person. Many Bible translations thus draw a distinction, making clear that the Word was not God, Three great translators of the Greek scriptures, translate John 1:1c, into English "the Word was divine" (James Moffat, Edgar J Goodspeed, and Westcott )

Over fifty Bible verses in John's writings have a construction similar to that of John 1:1c. For example, when referring to Herod Agrippa I, the crowds shouted: ‘It is a god speaking.’ And when Paul survived a bite by a poisonous snake, the people said: “He is a god.” (Acts 12:22; 28:3-6) It is in harmony with both Greek grammar and Bible teaching to speak of the Word as, not God, but “a god.”—John 1:1c.

Just a few verses down in the same chapter (Vs 14 ) John tells us the "Word" became "flesh", not God and Vs 18 reads (KJV ):"18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." Has any human seen Jesus Christ, the Son? Of course! So, then, was John saying that Jesus was God? Obviously not. Towards the end of his Gospel, John summarized matters, saying: " But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ,[ not God, but] the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." John 20:31 KJV,[ not God, but] words in bracket entered in verse by me.>>>


Both Harner (p. 82) and Wallace (p. 98) list John 10:1 as being in the list of "Colwell constructions.”

John 10:1 - “that (one) _thief is and _plunderer” is translated: “a thief and a robber” - KJV; ASV; RSV; ESV; HCSB; NAB; NASB; NIV; NRSV; etc..

Surely no one would say that “thief” and “robber” (or “plunderer”) are to be understood in two different senses. Obviously, if Jesus meant “thief” in a “qualitative” sense, he also intended the very same “qualitative” meaning for “robber.” We certainly never find any Bible translation which translates John 10:1 as “that one is the very essence of a thief and is a robber”! And the context would make such a suggestion ludicrous!

And yet, notice that “thief” comes before the verb and “robber” comes after the verb!! --- We can also see a clear refutation of Colwell’s “definite” rule here. The anarthrous “thief” coming before the verb is not considered definite (“the thief”) any more than the anarthrous “plunderer” coming after the verb is considered definite (“the plunderer”). They are both equally indefinite concrete predicate nouns!

So, in spite of any stylistic word order, both “thief” and “robber” tell us that the person so described is merely one of many (indefinite) who belong to a certain category and, therefore, have an indefinite article in English translations.

As for the Colwell's constructions concerning the word "Jew," they also are not "qualitative" any more than other predicate noun. They are translated in every Bible I examined as "a Jew" instead of the "qualitative" "Jewish." Check out the many Bible translations. Word order does not indicate indefinite or "qualitative" nouns!

Yes, If you really must have John 1:1c mean "and the Word was divine," you should have talked John into writing the NT Greek word for "divine" (theios) intead of the word for "god" (theos).

Examining the Trinity: HARNER's 'Qualitative' JBL Article Answered
 
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TiggerII

Active Member
Heb. 1:3 Xarakter


The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia states:

“In He 1 3 the word used is χαρακτηρ (charakter) .... It is derived from xarassw (charasso), ‘to engrave,’ .... hence, generally, the exact image or expression of any person or thing as corresponding to the original, the distinguishing feature, or traits by which a person or thing is known.” - p. 1451, Vol. 3, Eerdmans, 1984 printing.

Since this word is used only in this verse in the entire NT, we may look at its usage by another Christian of this time period.

Clement of Rome (ca. 90 - 100 A.D.) used this term: “[God] formed man in the impress (charakter) of His own image” - 1 Clem. 33:4, The Apostolic Fathers, Lightfoot & Harmer.


And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature - NASB

The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, - NIV

Who— being the radiance of His glory and exact-representation of His essence - DLNT

He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact likeness of his being - ISV

This Son is the radiance of his glory and the exact representation of his nature - Mounce
 
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