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We can know the meaning of John 1:1 from John 1:3

jah59

Member
I believe no verse with a clearer meaning can be found in all of scripture than John 1:3. While some people really dear to me claim that verse 1 can mean "a" god, this verse should remove any doubt to its meaning, as no Greek scholar can be found who disputes the clear meaning of verse 3, that is that Jesus created everything that was created and therefore cannot himself be created!

I firmly believe that when God wants to emphasize a matter in his written word such as in John 1:3, Colossians 1:15-17, and 1 John 4:8, He so inspires it that it is difficult, if not impossible to mistranslate.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
The son has a source, the father. The word became flesh and the world was made through him, meaning the word became creation itself.
 

jah59

Member
The son has a source, the father. The word became flesh and the world was made through him, meaning the word became creation itself.

I appreciate your input idav, but can you explain how that relates to what John 1:3 says?
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I appreciate your input idav, but can you explain how that relates to what John 1:3 says?

That Jesus didn't create, rather the fathers power created through the word. There is some vital aspect to the word though, without which the father would not have created anything. Jesus is always careful to give credit where it is due. The son has to be have a source which is the father which is what only begotten means.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Even in the genesis account creation is a matter of reshaping not creation per se as with Adam being formed from the dust. John says the word is life so that would be the breath of life as described in Genesis. The word became flesh makes more sense in that context. To me this means that the word shaped what was already in existence by the power of God.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Also "a" god makes sense in reference to John 1:13.

13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
 

jah59

Member
That Jesus didn't create, rather the fathers power created through the word. There is some vital aspect to the word though, without which the father would not have created anything. Jesus is always careful to give credit where it is due. The son has to be have a source which is the father which is what only begotten means.

Hmm, I believe most Greek scholars agree that the word that "only begotten" is translated from basically just means "unique" and will be happy to provide sources for that if you require, but thank you for your post.

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I firmly believe that when God wants to emphasize a matter in his written word such as in John 1:3, Colossians 1:15-17, and 1 John 4:8, He so inspires it that it is difficult, if not impossible to mistranslate.
 
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jah59

Member
That Jesus didn't create, rather the fathers power created through the word. There is some vital aspect to the word though, without which the father would not have created anything. Jesus is always careful to give credit where it is due. The son has to be have a source which is the father which is what only begotten means.

John 1:3 says that "without him nothing was created that was created". Are you saying that Jesus created himself through the father's power?

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I firmly believe that when God wants to emphasize a matter in his written word such as in John 1:3, Colossians 1:15-17, and 1 John 4:8, He so inspires it that it is difficult, if not impossible to mistranslate.
 
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jah59

Member
Also "a" god makes sense in reference to John 1:13.

Thank you again, but please bear with me, because I really have no idea what you are saying here. Can you elaborate?

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I firmly believe that when God wants to emphasize a matter in his written word such as in John 1:3, Colossians 1:15-17, and 1 John 4:8, He so inspires it that it is difficult, if not impossible to mistranslate.
 
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idav

Being
Premium Member
Hmm, I believe most Greek scholars agree that the word that "only begotten" is translated from basically just means "unique" and will be happy to provide sources for that if you require, but thank you for your post.
It would still be a son which has a source, a father.
John 1:3 says that "without him nothing was created that was created". Are you saying that Jesus created himself through the father's power?
No the father is the source. I am saying that god is the source of energy and matter and that something manipulated it and made a creation of it. Similar to adam coming from the dust.
Thank you again, but please bear with me, because I really have no idea what you are saying here. Can you elaborate?
Similar to Jesus being "begotten" we have the opportunity to be born of god. The verse is very specific in saying "not in a natural way". So we are all god, children of the most high, just as jesus is. God is within all as John suggests.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Your other verse your emphasizing goes with what I am saying. I bolded the important aspects of the verse to consider.

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
 

Nothingness888

New Member
Jesus made it very clear the Father is the Highest and the Only God. "Not my will, but yours O God." Only Gods will exists and no one elses. No matter what high rank He gives anyone, includng the Master.
 

jah59

Member
It would still be a son which has a source, a father.
Yes, I cannot agree more that the man Jesus had a source, a father, if that's what you mean. Yet he was fully man and fully God (Matt. 1:18), as John 1:1-3, 14 confirms.
No the father is the source. I am saying that god is the source of energy and matter and that something manipulated it and made a creation of it. Similar to adam coming from the dust.
While I certainly respect your opinion and appreciate your contributions to this thread, the opening statement here is "no Greek scholar can be found who disputes the clear meaning of verse 3, that is that Jesus created everything that was created and therefore cannot himself be created" Have you found any?
Similar to Jesus being "begotten" we have the opportunity to be born of god. The verse is very specific in saying "not in a natural way". So we are all god, children of the most high, just as jesus is. God is within all as John suggests.
Yes, I certainly agree that believer's who obey the gospel (2 Thess. 1:7-9, Rom. 6:3-6, 17, Acts 2:38) are born again, but I see nothing here that would even suggest that it is in the same way Jesus is the Son of God.
 

jah59

Member
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Your other verse your emphasizing goes with what I am saying. I bolded the important aspects of the verse to consider.
Thank you for bringing this up, but I think you're missing the connecting grammar in this passage, assuming you think that firstborn means "first-created". The word "for" at the beginning of verse 16 carries the meaning of "because", beginning an explanation of why he is called the "firstborn". In other words, he is called the "firstborn" because he created everything. To make sense grammatically with what I think you're trying to say, it would need to be something like "he is the firstborn of all creation because he was first-created" or "firstborn of all creation as a result of being created first". His creating everything cannot logically make him first-created. Rather I believe "firstborn" is used in the sense that it is in Exodus 4:22 and Jeremiah 31:9. In the first verse, God refers to Israel as His firstborn and the second he does so in reference to Ephraim, carrying a meaning of preeminence rather than a physical birth order.
__________________
I firmly believe that when God wants to emphasize a matter in his written word such as in John 1:3, Colossians 1:15-17, and 1 John 4:8, He so inspires it that it is difficult, if not impossible to mistranslate.
 
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idav

Being
Premium Member
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Thank you for bringing this up, but I think you're missing the connecting grammar in this passage, assuming you think that firstborn means "first-created". The word "for" at the beginning of verse 16 carries the meaning of "because", beginning an explanation of why he is called the "firstborn". In other words, he is called the "firstborn" because he created everything. To make sense grammatically with what I think you're trying to say, it would need to be something like "he is the firstborn of all creation because he was first-created" or "firstborn of all creation as a result of being created first". His creating everything cannot logically make him first-created. Rather I believe "firstborn" is used in the sense that it is in Exodus 4:22 and Jeremiah 31:9. In the first verse, God refers to Israel as His firstborn and the second he does so in reference to Ephraim, carrying a meaning of preeminence rather than a physical birth order.
One John reference says we would become born of god, not natural, but born of spirit. This puts us on par with jesus as( first )born. However not quite, it also says in one of those verses "holding everything together" which is a method of creation, that the logos, the word is within and part of everything which came from the father. Still the aspect of being reborn remains to be one with christ as he is with the father.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I believe no verse with a clearer meaning can be found in all of scripture than John 1:3. While some people really dear to me claim that verse 1 can mean "a" god, this verse should remove any doubt to its meaning, as no Greek scholar can be found who disputes the clear meaning of verse 3
1) No serious Greek scholar would argue that a line which doesn't use any lexeme we might translate as "god" clearly indicates

"that Jesus created everything that was created and therefore cannot himself be created!"

or much of anything else. We don't even need to leave commentaries that are clearly biased by Christian theology (rather than relying solely on classical languages, linguistics, etc.) to see this. See e.g., Wallace's Greek Grammar or McHugh's John 1-4.

2) The text is quite clear that "the word" (ho logos) didn't create, but rather uses a construction that deliberately avoids this reading: πάντα διʼ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν (panta di' autou egeneto, kai choris autou egeneto oude hen). "All things came to be through [not by, not because of] him, and apart from him came to be not a thing". It's pretty clear that the author(s) stress(es) the necessity of "the word" for everything that is, but deliberately avoids the suggestion that "the word" was a creative force. If dia is taken to be "through" in the sense "through the creative power of ho logos, then there would be no need to indicate that nothing existed without ho logos playing creative role. In fact, this latter part doesn't make much sense other than to indicate that "the word/memra/divine wisdom/etc." was important (even vital) for that which is. It would be simplicity itself to mimic Genesis and indicate that ho logos wasn't simply pre-existent but created everything (or was a creative force). Instead, the author(s) elect(s) to use a weaker preposition and doesn't use any verb, participle or similar construction indicating a creative role.

3) As ho logos isn't equated with Jesus (in fact, the author(s) state(s) that, rather than Jesus being ho logos, that ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο/ho logos sarx egeneto or "the word became flesh). I think it's pretty obvious that "the word" is meant to refer to Jesus before he had a human form, but this is not a matter of Greek grammar.

4) Lexemes are universally polysemous; constructions are idiomatic by definition and frequently nested, inheriting from multiple others, and ambiguous; finally, the prologue is quite deliberately poetic, metaphorical, arcane, and cryptic. IE linguistics, classicists, NT scholars, etc., can't make arguments here based upon the Greek. To suggest that what is deliberately more ambiguous & cryptic than language normally is can be settled by Greek grammar is to misunderstand the nature of language itself.

I firmly believe that when God wants to emphasize a matter in his written word such as in John 1:3
Fair enough. Just don't argue that the Greek makes this clear.
 

jah59

Member
And then there's Revelations 3:14.
Yes, thank you for bringing this up also. I assume you mean the part of the verse that is translated as follows in these translations:
"the head of God's new order" (BBE)
"the source of God's creation" (CEV)
"the origin of all that God has created" (GNB)
"the source of God's creation" (GW)
"the Head of the creation of God" (LITV)
"the Chief of the creation of God" (Murdock)
"the chief of the creation of God" (YLT)
and yes there are some translations that put it as:
"the beginning of God's creation" (ESV), but most if not all of these translators I believe would say that it does not mean that it's saying he was the beginning created being, but the beginning creator.
__________________
I firmly believe that when God wants to emphasize a matter in his written word such as in John 1:3, Colossians 1:15-17, and 1 John 4:8, He so inspires it that it is difficult, if not impossible to mistranslate.
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
1)
"All things came to be through [not by, not because of] him, and apart from him came to be not a thing".


It's pretty clear that the author(s) stress(es) the necessity of "the word" for everything that is, but deliberately avoids the suggestion that "the word" was a creative force.


If dia is taken to be "through" in the sense "through the creative power of ho logos, then there would be no need to indicate that nothing existed without ho logos playing creative role.
“The Word” and God are one.

PS 33:6 By the word of the LORD the heavens were made,
And by the breath of His mouth all their host.


And this, “The Word” of God, that created everything in Genesis became flesh and therefore, “The Word” is God Himself. IOW, God and His Word can not be separated or they are ONE.


What if the beginning of the gospel of John is something like this:

Jn 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.

And from verses 1 to 3 John explained the meaning of “The Word” which is God Himself ‘cause God and His Word are ONE.

Would it be easier to understand that “The Word” of God that created everything became flesh?

How do you explain this verses, if the Lord Jesus Christ is not the “Word“ of God?

Jn 12:41 These things said Isaiah, because he saw his glory; and he spake of him.
Rev 19:13 And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God.


Therefore, “The Word” of God is the creative force or

Jn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Yes, thank you for bringing this up also. I assume you mean the part of the verse that is translated as follows in these translations:
"the head of God's new order" (BBE)
"the source of God's creation" (CEV)
"the origin of all that God has created" (GNB)
"the source of God's creation" (GW)
"the Head of the creation of God" (LITV)
"the Chief of the creation of God" (Murdock)
"the chief of the creation of God" (YLT)
and yes there are some translations that put it as:
"the beginning of God's creation" (ESV), but most if not all of these translators I believe would say that it does not mean that it's saying he was the beginning created being, but the beginning creator.
__________________
I firmly believe that when God wants to emphasize a matter in his written word such as in John 1:3, Colossians 1:15-17, and 1 John 4:8, He so inspires it that it is difficult, if not impossible to mistranslate.

It calls it Gods creation which means it isn't the creation of the subject, but does have authority, a hand in it. This affirms what "God created through the word" really means. The word is like the a tool God the father used.
 
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