We can't choose to believe?

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Is this a beneficial mutation? I agree that radiation at low levels can cause beneficial mutations that might be passed down. But, I am having trouble finding evidence that it has played a substantial role in evolutionary changes. Interesting hypothesis for sure though.

Beneficial who knows , I know cancers aren't so beneficial .
I also can find very little .

 

[leibowde84]

Would be easier for me to choose what to believe if you could prove it wasn't radiation causing random mutations throughout evolution .
Sorry for not one second I try be scientist was an observation which raised the a theory ,

That would be asking me to prove a negative. I'm not saying it isn't possible, just asking for supporting evidence.

 

[leibowde84]

Beneficial who knows , I know cancers aren't so beneficial .
I also can find very little .

Right, at high levels, radiation mutations usually cause cancer. But, at low levels it can cause beneficial mutations. I was asking about the flowers soecificslly. Did the change help them?

 

[Willamena]

A priori statements don't require verification. I agree with that, as they are true by definition. A posteri statements do require verification.

That's incorrect: for the most part, a priori knowledge can be, and is, justified.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/apriori/

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Right, at high levels, radiation mutations usually cause cancer. But, at low levels it can cause beneficial mutations. I was asking about the flowers soecificslly. Did the change help them?

Hmm I prefer flowers the old way ?
Symetrical flowers capture the sun light more efficiently ?so I'd suggest non beneficial
Earth always had radiation since the day it became earth ?
Earth been getting slowly less radioactive naturally over time ?
So life always been under the influence of radiation , higher at the beginning ?

 

[Kueid]

Were you trying to say that you "believing I was honest" was an example of a belief that you chose? How was it, exactly?

I saw your comment and thought "this guy are being honest or not right now?" then a chosen "yes he is" and now I believe you were being honest in that moment. Of course that's just an possible past, I can change that too (just kidding, forget about the past change thing, it'll be impossible for you too to conceive it). Did my answer satisfied you?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I saw your comment and thought "this guy are being honest or not right now?" then a chosen "yes he is" and now I believe you were being honest in that moment.

But you didn't "choose" to believe I was honest - it's the conclusion of your assessment. If I told you I was the president of the United States, could you "choose" to believe me?

Did my answer satisfied you?

Not really, because it's still not an example of a belief you "chose" to have. You believe it as a result of assessing my claims as being honest.

 

[Quintessence]

Excuse me asking but you were trying to communicate what to people? I'm confused between "trying to communicate what a belief is" and "trying to communicate that we need to clarify the perspectives".

At various points, I've tried to communicate the fact that yes, I can choose my beliefs, and so can at least some other people. But I keep running into folks saying "nuh uh!" and I don't know what to make of that aside from a communications failure. Some of that communications failure undoubtedly comes from different understandings of what "belief" is, and what that entails. It means people end up talking past each other, without reaching much understanding. I don't know how to resolve that here.

 

[Kueid]

But you didn't "choose" to believe I was honest - it's the conclusion of your assessment.

Interesting choice of words. You think that excludes my choice? Because there was an assessment there is no "choosing"? Do you know what an assessment is?

If I told you I was the president of the United States, could you "choose" to believe me?

Yes.

Not really, because it's still not an example of a belief you "chose" to have. You believe it as a result of assessing my claims as being honest.

Just for the record I changed that belief already. I'm not in the team "you were being honest" anymore, so... my belief right now comes from where? What was the assessing this time? There was no question, no thought, nothing. It wasn't your comments that made my belief change. It wasn't anything that you can come up to. So, how about that? Are you gonna call me straight up liar? Are you gonna say just "impossible"? What'll it be?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Interesting choice of words. You think that excludes my choice? Because there was an assessment there is no "choosing"? Do you know what an assessment is?

But a belief is a CONCLUSION of an assessment. I've already explained that.

Yes.

No, you really can't.

Just for the record I changed that belief already. I'm not in the team "you were being honest" anymore, so... my belief right now comes from where? What was the assessing this time?

Saying that you believe something and actually believing it are not the same thing.

There was no question, no thought, nothing. It wasn't your comments that made my belief change. It wasn't anything that you can come up to. So, how about that? Are you gonna call me straight up liar?

Yep. You can't just change what you accept as being true by an act of pure voluntary will. The human brain doesn't work that way.

Are you gonna say just "impossible"? What'll it be?

You're lying.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

To use an easier metaphor, say you are challenged to a game of chess by a friend. You may choose to decline their offer, or you may choose to accept it - that is voluntary. However, say you choose to accept their challenge and then you subsequently defeat your opponent. By "choosing" to play the game, did you therefore "choose" to win the game? No. The winning was the outcome of the operation of the game itself. You can choose how you play, but ultimately no matter how you play no single voluntary decision "to win" factors into the outcome of the game. The outcome of the game represents the conclusion of the process, not a conscious, voluntary determination of either of the players. Just as a belief (a position which you hold to be true) is the conclusion of the intellectual process of investigation or assessment. You may choose the method, but you cannot choose the outcome.

Excuse my French but what a load of manure. The thing about how I believe allows me to take a bad move back and re-access my methodology so, yes, I win every game because I choose to. Perhaps you make believing difficult for yourself.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Excuse my French but what a load of manure. The thing about how I believe allows me to take a bad move back and re-access my methodology so, yes, I win every game because I choose to.

No you don't. You win the game as a result of the moves you and your opponent make - you cannot simply "choose" to win a game. You may "choose" to make winning moves, but that doesn't change the fact that the win or loss is a result of how the game is played, not the fact that you somehow "chose to win".

Perhaps you make believing difficult for yourself.

It really isn't that difficult to grasp.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

No you don't. You win the game as a result of the moves you and your opponent make - you cannot simply "choose" to win a game. You may "choose" to make winning moves, but that doesn't change the fact that the win or loss is a result of how the game is played, not the fact that you somehow "chose to win".

You seem to have ignored what I said. Yet in a way that is how I control my beliefs.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You seem to have ignored what I said. Yet in a way that is how I control my beliefs.

I've ignored nothing. You don't seem to understand that beliefs simply cannot be a result of voluntary choice. In the chess metaphor, choosing to take back moves doesn't change the fact that either winning or losing is still a result of the moves you make not the simple "choice to win" in exactly the same way as beliefs are the result of your assessment, understanding and perspective and not the simple "choice to believe". Beliefs are the outcome of our assessments, and are therefore solely the result of largely subconscious, involuntary mental processes, and not merely choice.

Again, I really don't see why this is such a difficult concept to grasp or why so many people are so adamant that it doesn't apply to them.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I've ignored nothing. You don't seem to understand that beliefs simply cannot be a result of voluntary choice. In the chess metaphor, choosing to take back moves doesn't change the fact that either winning or losing is still a result of the moves you make not the simple "choice to win" in exactly the same way as beliefs are the result of your assessment, understanding and perspective and not the simple "choice to believe". Beliefs are the outcome of our assessments, and are therefore solely the result of largely subconscious, involuntary mental processes, and not merely choice.

Again, I really don't see why this is such a difficult concept to grasp or why so many people are so adamant that it doesn't apply to them.

Because you ignore the motivation and reduce it to causality which is a hindsight methodology. It has always happened that way so the conclusion is that it will always happen that way.

 

[leibowde84]

Hmm I prefer flowers the old way ?
Symetrical flowers capture the sun light more efficiently ?so I'd suggest non beneficial
Earth always had radiation since the day it became earth ?
Earth been getting slowly less radioactive naturally over time ?
So life always been under the influence of radiation , higher at the beginning ?

None of this speaks to evidence that radiation plays a significant part in evolution. Also, your logic would contend that evolution is slowing down. But, there is no reason to believe that is happening.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Because you ignore the motivation and reduce it to causality which is a hindsight methodology. It has always happened that way so the conclusion is that it will always happen that way.

Now you're just not making sense. Having a motivation doesn't mean you "choose" what you accept as true, it just changes how you assess it. The outcome is till not down to choice.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Now you're just not making sense. Having a motivation doesn't mean you "choose" what you accept as true, it just changes how you assess it. The outcome is till not down to choice.

My motivation is what sets into motion the chain of events that lead to belief. If I don't like the result I change my motivation.

 

[leibowde84]

My motivation is what sets into motion the chain of events that lead to belief. If I don't like the result I change my motivation.

Aren't you still being convinced though?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

My motivation is what sets into motion the chain of events that lead to belief. If I don't like the result I change my motivation.

Congratulations - you just admitted that belief isn't a matter of choice, but the consequence of assessment, and that it is not a simple matter of choice. I could go deeper and explain how "not liking the result" is merely another level of assessment (after-all, I assume there are lots of things you accept as being true that you'd rather weren't so), but you basically agree with me at this stage.