We can't choose to believe?

[paarsurrey]

The OP's quoted article explains why, as do many of the responses.

I read the OP and others, but cannot understand as to what difficulty is there in believing the truth.
Anybody to paraphrase for me, please.
Regards

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

I read the OP and others, but cannot understand as to what difficulty is there in believing the truth.
Anybody to paraphrase for me, please.
Regards

You will not understand ,you do not need to understand , Islam remains untouched .
All you need to accept and I know history quotes differently that disbelievers are not evil .

 

[MARCELLO]

You can choose to believe and also yes, change you can!

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

I read the OP and others, but cannot understand as to what difficulty is there in believing the truth.
Anybody to paraphrase for me, please.
Regards

All paths lead to Allah,,YHWH,Moksha,Nivarna,God etc
A disbeliever who does Allah's work on earth without cohesion is an asset to Allah?

 

[Draka]

If you were standing at the top of a tall skyscraper and someone told you to choose to believe you could fly, could you? Could you actually sincerely change your belief in gravity and your basic human limitations to the point that you would honestly believe you could fly and jump off the building?

If I told you the moon was actually a space station created billions of years ago by a race of aliens still living inside it and they are preparing to take over Earth any day now...Could you simply choose to believe me? Would you take to the streets to warn people?

Belief is not a choice. It is subconscious conditioning due to a myriad of factors.

 

[paarsurrey]

You will not understand ,you do not need to understand , Islam remains untouched .
All you need to accept and I know history quotes differently that disbelievers are not evil .

I never said disbelievers are necessarily evil. Did I? Please
Regards

 

[DawudTalut]

Beliefs and creeds are a significant part of many world religions.

Peace be on you.
Agree.

Some groups engage in attempts to convince various sides that they have the right beliefs, while others do not.

Agree.

Regardless, the act of preaching or proselytizing is predicated on the notion that we can, on some level, choose what to believe.

Agree.

However, to what extent is this a choice? Here's a perspective for consideration:

"Whether you believe in libertarian free will or not, it is immediately obvious that what you believe in is not a choice.​

No.
What people believe, it is their choice. They choose to follow traditions or new creed.
​

If you disagree – are you sure that you could simply choose out of the blue to genuinely believe in something ? Are you sure that you could just decide to genuinely believe that the moon is made out of green cheese? Are you sure that you could just decide to genuinely believe that 2+2=42? Are you sure that you could just decide to genuinely believe that Elvis Presley was resurrected from the dead? You can´t. Try it if you don´t believe me.

People believe for various reasons; family tradition, own research.

Our belief-forming mechanisms operate subconsciously.

Sometimes true but one has to make conscientiousness effort too.

You can of course change your mind on things, by reading, hearing new arguments, seeing new evidence, discussing it with others and so on

Agree.

– but you can´t just choose one of your beliefs, and start to genuinely believe in its negation out of the blue."

When a creed does not work, seekers question it and try to find better (some leave faith fully).

Do you agree with this perspective? If so, why? If not, why not?

This Perceptive is mixture of right and wrong IMO.

 

[YmirGF]

What folks believe about their beliefs certainly colours their ability to change said beliefs. You can change beliefs but you do need a reason. Without a good reason, one that is compelling to you, you cannot just pretend to believe... unless you are after some really hot chick or guy, that is.

 

[Draka]

No.
What people believe, it is their choice. They choose to follow traditions or new creed.

Choosing to follow traditions or a creed is not the same as choosing to believe. One must have some basis for believing, have the belief already, to justify choosing to follow a tradition or creed. You can choose your actions, but not your beliefs. You may base your actions upon what you believe, but your actions and your choice to do them is not the same as choosing to believe.

One must honestly already believe they can fly before attempting to jump off a building with the intent being to fly over to the next. One does not jump off a building to fly over to the next without the belief they can already there. Belief is not a choice, your actions are, but not your beliefs.

 

[Draka]

What folks believe about their beliefs certainly colours their ability to change said beliefs. You can change beliefs but you do need a reason. Without a good reason, one that is compelling to you, you cannot just pretend to believe... unless you are after some really hot chick or guy, that is.

Yes, there must a be a reason. Something our mind can comprehend and weigh against past reasons to believe otherwise. Whether a belief changes isn't really a conscious choice, but a result of your brain being able to reason something out amid contradicting information.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Belief is a choice as it's something provisionally introduced, although there may be a disposition as to where shaking off belief may prove harder for some than others. It took me about 3 years to settle my beliefs since the indoctrination began.

It's true as others have mentioned already for which it's not typically something that a person can change overnight.

 

[Quintessence]

Belief is not a choice, your actions are, but not your beliefs.

How does it make sense to hold the position that beliefs are always fixed, yet somehow actions are never fixed?

More importantly, why is it, then, that I find the challenge posed by the blogger to be painfully easy if I supposedly can't do this (according to him and to you)?

 

[Draka]

How does it make sense to hold the position that beliefs are always fixed, yet somehow actions are never fixed?

More importantly, why is it, then, that I find the challenge posed by the blogger to be painfully easy if I supposedly can't do this (according to him and to you)?

I didn't say beliefs are always fixed now did I? I've never said beliefs can't or don't change, just that we don't just choose to change them. One cannot choose to change a belief. One can consider information, research, evidence, experiences and so on, but the change in belief itself comes at a subconscious level when the brain has tilted its reasoning scale one way or another. It is very much like a scale. One side vs another. Contradicting evidence piling up on each side. We don't just pick a side and choose to pull it down and say it weighs more, even if it doesn't. It happens on its own.

And you find it "painfully easy" to genuinely believe that 2+2=42? And that Elvis has been resurrected from the dead? You honestly believe those things now? To the bone? Your entire concept of mathematics has been completely and wholly changed? Merely from being told to try to believe it? Truly? I don't think so. But, hey, if so, believe this...I'm am your God. Believe that you must do everything I say. You must believe everything I tell you to believe. Believe you must send me your entire income. Every time you receive money you will be overcome with the intense need to send it all to me. Yeah. Sounds good. You can believe anything by mere will. Believe that.

 

[Quintessence]

I didn't say beliefs are always fixed now did I?

Use a synonymn if you like; by "fixed" I mean "determined" as in "cannot be chosen" (which you have said) as in "no free will." How does it make sense to hold the position that beliefs are fixed/determined and have no free will involved, yet actions somehow do? How can the product of something that is fixed be un-fixed? If one can't choose beliefs, how does it make sense to say one can choose actions? Could you elaborate on how the logic follows there?

And you find it "painfully easy" to genuinely believe that 2+2=42? And that Elvis has been resurrected from the dead? You honestly believe those things now? To the bone?

If you haven't yet read this post, that might clarify some things. Don't have much to add to it. Believing in something "to the bone" is not necessary, and there are very few things (if any) I believe in so rigidly. I'm simply not that attached to beliefs like some people are, I guess, hence I can paradigm shift at will and also hold multiple truths (that are at times contradictory). Been doing this all my life... it's not hard. Swap one map for another, navigate with a different set of directions for a while. All the stories are too interesting to not give them their screen time...

 

[Draka]

Use a synonymn if you like; by "fixed" I mean "determined" as in "cannot be chosen" (which you have said) as in "no free will." How does it make sense to hold the position that beliefs are fixed/determined and have no free will involved, yet actions somehow do? How can the product of something that is fixed be un-fixed? If one can't choose beliefs, how does it make sense to say one can choose actions? Could you elaborate on how the logic follows there?

I can choose an action, it is what I do with my body. I cannot choose the way my brain works in its understanding. I think with my brain, I make decisions with it, I decide to take an action,...I cannot decide how my brain functions.

I can decide that I want to go for a walk based on my belief that it is a nice day outside. I cannot, however, just up and choose to believe it is cold and wet and miserable outside when it is 90°F and sunny out. I'm sorry, my brain doesn't work like that. That would be...crazy. That would be something fundamentally wrong with a person's brain.

I cannot choose to believe the sky is purple with fluorescent green paisley patterns upon it. I cannot choose to believe that 2+2=42 even if you claim you can (which I do not believe for one second). That would mean something along the lines of 7+12=199.5 and I'm not turning 40 in about a month...no, I'm apparently turning 420. That is...crazy. If one can honestly change their beliefs to go against established information in their brain that is an indicator of insanity.



Edit: typo

 

[Quintessence]

@Draka, thanks for trying to explain. Should I choose to believe you were making subtle insults against my person, or choose to believe you weren't? Oh wait... according to you I can't choose either of these... or if I can, there's something wrong with my brain and I'm crazy! Oh noes!

 

[Draka]

@Draka, thanks for trying to explain. Should I choose to believe you were making subtle insults against my person, or choose to believe you weren't? Oh wait... according to you I can't choose either of these... or if I can, there's something wrong with my brain and I'm crazy! Oh noes!

If you maintain you can choose to believe anything at all, regardless of evidence, experience, fact and reason...well, I'll leave it to you to try to figure out what that just may say about your thinking and reasoning ability.

Out of curiosity, what would you think of a person who was told to believe they could sprout wings and fly off a skyscraper and they just accepted that as true, and believed it enough to actually jump off said skyscraper? Would you say their mind was working as it should?

 

[Riverwolf]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Proper is when the objective of the education is achieved. Those who don't know to do a thing will not do, whats the problem with that?

Making choices isn't a simple matter of knowing how.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Beliefs and creeds are a significant part of many world religions. Some groups engage in attempts to convince various sides that they have the right beliefs, while others do not. Regardless, the act of preaching or proselytizing is predicated on the notion that we can, on some level, choose what to believe. However, to what extent is this a choice? Here's a perspective for consideration:

"Whether you believe in libertarian free will or not, it is immediately obvious that what you believe in is not a choice. If you disagree – are you sure that you could simply choose out of the blue to genuinely believe in something ? Are you sure that you could just decide to genuinely believe that the moon is made out of green cheese? Are you sure that you could just decide to genuinely believe that 2+2=42? Are you sure that you could just decide to genuinely believe that Elvis Presley was resurrected from the dead? You can´t. Try it if you don´t believe me.

Our belief-forming mechanisms operate subconsciously. You can of course change your mind on things, by reading, hearing new arguments, seeing new evidence, discussing it with others and so on – but you can´t just choose one of your beliefs, and start to genuinely believe in its negation out of the blue."
*source*​

Do you agree with this perspective? If so, why? If not, why not?

What makes you believe that you know what I can or cannot do?

 

[Kueid]

Making choices isn't a simple matter of knowing how.

I don't remember saying that. The choice you mentioned was about the choice of changing beliefs, not "making choices" in general, everyone are doing that all the time. Choice over what belief you want is a simple matter of knowing how, that I can assure you.