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Were there other people beside Adam?

gnostic

The Lost One
jeremy mason said:
Interesting, I'm a Christian who believes in evolution. Kinda hard to dismiss dinosaurs and geology. I do beleive God was/is the mastermind of the universe. Six days seems contrary to God's time scale as portrayed in the Bible. 70+ years turned into 490+ years.

If I remember this correctly, the FFH and the YECs believed that the dinosaurs died out during the Flood. If that was the case, there would be evidences of humans and dinosaurs existing the same sediment levels, and there are no such evidences.

That's why I think YEC's theories are ridiculous.
 

herushura

Active Member
Are you a YEC too?

Genesis 1 says 1 morning and 1 evening, 1st day. 1 morning and 1 evening, a 2nd day, etc, right up to the 6th day.



And in that same verse, it is explain after light from darkness, God called light Day and darkness Night.

The same passage from the 1st day, is repeated 2nd day (Genesis 1:8), 3rd day (1:13), 4th day (1:19), 5th day (1:23) and 6th day (1:31).

How does 1 day becomes a thousand-year?

To Find your Answers you must look up at the Stars

An astrological Great Year takes 25, 920 earth years. An Age, the astrological equivalent to a month takes 25,920/12 or 2160 earth years. A House, the astrological equivalent to a day, takes 2160/12 or 180 earth years.

Day 1 = Gemini
On the first day when the sun rises above the equinox, He created light and separated it from darkness. And he saw that the light was good

DAy 2 = Cancer
The Firmement is the Shell of the Crab.
On the second day He created a firmament (metal shell) to separate the lower waters from the upper waters.

DaY 3 = Leo
On the third day dry land appeared from the lower waters
Earth gave forth vegetation, plants yielding seed and fruit trees bearing fruit, each according to its kind

Day 4 = Virgo
On the fourth day, He put the stars and planets in the sky to give us the signs and seasons for the days and years. The sun would rule the day and the moon would rule the night.


Day 5= Libra
On the fifth day, the waters brought forth swarms of living creatures

Day 6 =Scorpio
On the sixth day, earth gave birth to living creatures according to their kind like a mother gives birth to her children.

Day 7 = Rest
When God rested, the sun disappeared below the horizon
 

gnostic

The Lost One
herushura said:
To Find your Answers you must look up at the Stars

An astrological Great Year takes 25, 920 earth years. An Age, the astrological equivalent to a month takes 25,920/12 or 2160 earth years. A House, the astrological equivalent to a day, takes 2160/12 or 180 earth years.

Sorry, but the zodiac connections have very little meaning to me.
 

pallanfred

New Member
Okay, here is what seems obvious to me. First, this whole account of how the earth was made, "This is 'the history of the heavens when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens..." Genesis 2:4--We see that this is a history, not anything more. Also, because of other scriptures like how the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil are actual trees in which they were not to eat, then I have to take that metaphorical. Plus, the above scripture says that it was a day that the earth was made, where the chapter earlier says it was six days. Surely the whole "Day" thing is figurative, and not litereal. In fact, I would say that it probably was a literary device used by Moses when communicating with the Hebrews. Moreover, this account was assureadly a oral tradition for hundreds of years before recoreded by Moses. Yes I do believe that it was God speaking through Moses when he wrote this down, but you must consider where Moses, as the leader of a escaped slave culture that was deeply in a heathen pagan culture, and there was a need to make sure that they were NOT Egyption. If you check out chapter one, you can see that when we were created in the Image of God, it was for the purpose to filling the earth and subdue it. There is a command given in Chapter one, and that command is to be fruitful and mulitiply, fill the earth and subdue it. No where does it comment that this command was broken. In fact, the first command that was broken was to disobey concerning the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. If that command in Chptr one wasn't broken, then what is to say that there were not thousands of men and women that existed before the fall. What is to say that "Man" or "Adam" isn't figurative. There has to be a point in which to fulfill the reasoning of Christ, there has to be a geneology to prove that Christ was from Mankind and God. He (Christ) is the anti-Adam, for he never partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Even if Adam were a certain person, there must be an established geneology, and that is what the whole Abel and Seth thing is comming from. There is too much figurative and allagorical language to not say that it isn't to be considered on these terms. Yes I believe that it is certain truth, but it is truth that we must seek by our own relationship with Christ, and then these answers will come to you. I think it is a mix of allagorical and literal accounts of what happened, but I think Moses, filled with the Spirit, used tactical literary devices that brought in the Hebrews to form a national identification, and to show that they are above the animals, which were not to be worshiped, and different from Egypt culture and their influences. So, in consideration of all this, we must look at what was trying to be said by this account, and not intertwine our own cultural values and look for literal language to explain life.

I digress, they were commanded to "be fruitful and mulitply" and there is no evidence to say they did otherwise...
 

gnostic

The Lost One
pallanfred said:
Surely the whole "Day" thing is figurative, and not litereal.

So, an evening and a morning, doesn't make a day? Is that what you are telling me?

I hoped that you are not also going to tell me that a day = a thousand-year, too?

I understand that Genesis 1-3 could all be allegory, but even an allegory have a limit of how much interpretation you can put in it.

If a day doesn't equal a "day", then what does it mean?

It probably bl#@dy well mean that neither God nor prophet is trustworthy to give you the time. :foot:
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
So, an evening and a morning, doesn't make a day? Is that what you are telling me?

I hoped that you are not also going to tell me that a day = a thousand-year, too?

I understand that Genesis 1-3 could all be allegory, but even an allegory have a limit of how much interpretation you can put in it.

If a day doesn't equal a "day", then what does it mean?

It probably bl#@dy well mean that neither God nor prophet is trustworthy to give you the time. :foot:

Even if it is six days, there is nothing in the text to say how recently He did that. He could have done it all billions of years ago. There is also no way to know how many cycles of good and evil God has engineered over the years. The only one He told us about was the one that is relevant to us.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
It seems there are a lot of theories about who Cain's wife was-
1. idea one- he married his sister
2. There were other humans other than Adam already outside the garden after Adam and Eve were thrown out.
3. Cain married an ape (That was brought up once by someone, I think here).

So which of these is correct? I haven't the foggiest. :)
Why did I even bring this up? I don't know that either.

TTFN, ta ta for now.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
ChristineES said:
It seems there are a lot of theories about who Cain's wife was-
1. idea one- he married his sister
2. There were other humans other than Adam already outside the garden after Adam and Eve were thrown out.
3. Cain married an ape (That was brought up once by someone, I think here).

There are 2 sources that I know of that say Cain married his sister.

The Haggada (The Legends of the Jews, volume 1, chapter 3, under title Fratricide, it was translated by Louis Ginzberg, 1909), is based on materials derived from various sources, including the Talmud and Mishna, and more than likely from oral tradition.

The Legends of the Jews said:
But this was not the only cause of Cain's hatred toward Abel. Partly love for a woman brought about the crime. To ensure the propagation of the human race, a girl, destined to be his wife, was born together with each of the sons of Adam. Abel's twin sister was of exquisite beauty, and Cain desired her. Therefore he was constantly brooding over ways and means of ridding himself of his brother.

The Haggada doesn't name the sister that Cain lust for.

The 2nd source come from the pre-Christian Pseudigraphal text, known as the Book of Jubilees (translated by R. H. Charles, 1917). In chapter 4, verse 1, we are given the name of this sister, ’Âwân.

Book of Jubilees said:
And in the third week in the second jubilee, she gave birth to Cain, and in the fourth she gave birth to Abel, and in the fifth she gave birth to her daughter ’Âwân.

Adam and Eve had another daughter, ’Azûrâ, who married Seth.

Book of Jubilees said:
And in the fifth week of the fifth jubilee Seth took ’Azûrâ his sister to be his wife, and in the fourth (year of the sixth week) she bare him Enos.

The book of Jubilees is the only source I know that supplied name of wives, mothers, daughters, sisters, cousins of the patriarchs.
 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
There are 2 sources that I know of that say Cain married his sister.

The Haggada (The Legends of the Jews, volume 1, chapter 3, under title Fratricide, it was translated by Louis Ginzberg, 1909), is based on materials derived from various sources, including the Talmud and Mishna, and more than likely from oral tradition.



The Haggada doesn't name the sister that Cain lust for.

The 2nd source come from the pre-Christian Pseudigraphal text, known as the Book of Jubilees (translated by R. H. Charles, 1917). In chapter 4, verse 1, we are given the name of this sister, ’Âwân.



Adam and Eve had another daughter, ’Azûrâ, who married Seth.



The book of Jubilees is the only source I know that supplied name of wives, mothers, daughters, sisters, cousins of the patriarchs.

I think any writing from sources outside the IBble have to be taken with a grain of salt. In other words I consider it as pure speculation.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I think any writing from sources outside the IBble have to be taken with a grain of salt. In other words I consider it as pure speculation.
That's true. Or possibly true.

Possibly because a large part of the OT bible or Tanakh is based on oral tradition, because many of the books weren't written until after the Exile and post-Exile period.

The books of Kings and Chronicles were certainly written at that time and not the times of the kings' reigns, so most of it were likely passed on through oral traditions.

The Torah, or the five books ascribed by Moses...well, these are the "written" Torah. There is also enormous "unwritten" Torah or oral tradition of the unwritten ones were still floating about. Some of these unwritten Torah were transmitted into writing through the other literature, like the Talmud, Mishna, etc.

Take for example of the myth about Enoch as example. We have the books of Enoch, which were listed as 1 Enoch and 2 Enoch, are now largely survived in 2 manuscripts, translated into Ethiopic and Slovennic. We know that the Enoch literature were written originally either Aramaic or Greek, because fragaments are found as early as the 2nd century BCE. Fragments were also found that correlate with one of these books, which was written in Hebrew, which you know as the Dead Sea Scrolls.

And we have the Haggada and the Book of Jubilees, which tell the same myth of Enoch found in the books of Enoch. And the letter of Jude (NT) mentioned a prophecy, but where did he know this prophecy from?

You have to ask yourself the following questions:

  • Were the myth first of Enoch "invented" in the 2nd century BCE?
  • Or was it based on older source(s)? Like from oral tradition?
 

opuntia

Religion is Law
Simple mathematics dictates that one and one equals a union, so God created a man and a woman. Adam and Eve by propagation had more children than Cain and Able. How long did Adam live? 930 years (Genesis 5:5). Considering we have genetic imperfections in our DNA, such considerations like a short life span or disease likely did not apply in the days of Adam and Eve since the race was just beginning to populate the earth--fresh from the garden of Eden. Over the centuries the corruption begun by Adam and Eve by partaking of the fruit has produced in us moderns alterations of the racially pure strain of our first parents. Incest probably was not an issue then, but these days genetic mutation fears inhibit such relationships.

It is considered that the bodies inhabited by Adam and Eve in the garden before partaking of the fruit are not the same as those bodies when cast out of the garden. The original bodies were likely immortal. Let's follow the breadcrumbs and see where they lead us.

In Genesis 2:17, God warns Adam that he must not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil or else he will die.

In 3:4, the serpent tells Eve they would not die (of course they did not die the death we know of, but they died a certain death that caused them to be cast out from the garden. Eating made them mortal.)

In 3:6, they eat the fruit and in 3:7 they suddenly became aware that they were naked. Why suddenly notice now, why not before?

In 3:14-19, God outlines for Adam and Eve what they will face upon their expulsion from the garden.

In 3:22, God says expulsion is necessary because Adam and Eve might partake of the tree of life and live forever. He places Cherubims with a flaming sword to keep away Adam and Eve.

The likelihood that there were other children is good because other bodies are mentioned as living with Adam and Eve upon the earth. Any offspring is likely the other bodies.

Also, Paul wrote of Adam not being deceived in the partaking of the fruit (1 Timothy 2:14). Adam could have refrained from eating of the fruit. But since Eve was his partner he joined her willingly in the eating of the fruit.

It appears that the plan was not for them to remain in the garden forever but to be cast out into the world. To live forever in the garden might seem counterproductive since we need adversity to grow and the garden provided no adversity such as we know it.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
optunia said:
It is considered that the bodies inhabited by Adam and Eve in the garden before partaking of the fruit are not the same as those bodies when cast out of the garden. The original bodies were likely immortal.
My view is that God never meant for Adam and Eve to live forever in the Garden of Eden. He deliberate set the 2 trees there so that they would fail.

In fact they were never immortal; only through eating the Tree of Life could make them immortal, like ambrosia, food of the gods in Greek mythology. In any case, God didn't want to be immortal.

Do you remember the command to the first man and woman on the 6th day of Creation?

Well, guess what would have happened? Immortality would be disastrous for the human race, because if humans were immortal, they would eventually overpopulate the earth, and soon or later, they would run out of food, because no one dies.

What then?

In the original story (meaning the Genesis), Adam was expelled from the Garden after the forbidden fruit, and must work for their food.

What would have happened if they didn't eat this fruit? They would have continued to eat food that grew in the garden, but wouldn't have the ingenuity to find and grow their food. Eventually the food won't last forever, and they all would eventually starve.

According to the Genesis, Eden have its limit or boundary. Only so much people can live in such place, before people would to move out of Eden.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I don't think God engineered evil but I understand what you mean by possible past cycles.

I would grant you the first statement. However as others have stated the tree was there. I could speculate on how long that tree had been there and no one thought to eat of it until God told them not to and the serpent told them it was a good idea to eat of it. And where was the serpent all those years, bound up maybe and then loosed at the right time. It sure looks like God's engineering to me.

We are now in a cycle of evil but look ahead to the time when the Kingdom of God comes on earth and all who are evil die in a cataclysm. The KOG people are given re-engineered eternal bodies and no children are born. To boot no-one remembers how to do an evil act. Or as Crosby, Stills and Nash put it "We've got to get back to the Garden" although I dont think they had a clue how that would happen.
 
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