What’s your main reason for being a theist or an atheist?

[Trailblazer]

So how do you explain these two of several examples of God ordering people to be killed?

I do not explain them because I do not know the Old Testament well enough to explain them.
Perhaps someone like Adrian could explain them since he knows the Bible well.

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'is always talk about the nonexistent "original" messages from the various people they call "manifestations". Since, we don't have these "original" messages what do Baha'is think those "original" messages said?

If they do not exist, we do not have them, so how can we know what they said?
Some original scriptures might exist, but I don't know if they do so I do not bother thinking about it, since Baha'u'llah wrote:

"Please God thou wilt turn thine eyes towards the Most Great Revelation, and entirely disregard these conflicting tales and traditions." Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 174-175

 

[Dawnofhope]

I can't believe how many pages have gone by. I had a hard time finding this post. But, your answer did kind of miss the point. Here's the questions again...

Ok

So why did God create a temporary place where he put eternal beings into temporary physical bodies, bodies that are subject to death and disease? Just to test them? To test who? The spirit being part of the person or the temporary physical part of the person? If that physical person messes up, then God judges the eternal spirit part of the person? And that physical person sure seems to be susceptible to "dark" forces. But, in the spirit world, there are no "dark" forces? All is good? Evil only exists here in the physical world?

Its an interesting question from you CG. I admit I may not have answered your question to anyones satisfaction. You ask if there is a God and why did He create the world as He has?

The first aspect in answering this is clarity about the structure of reality. From your post above, I’m not sure if there is clarity or agreement on some key aspects of reality.

As you know Baha’is believe we have a soul that is closely associated with the physical body and the existence of that soul begins at conception.

What’s missing from your brief narrative IMHO is:
1/ An account of the nature of God
2/ His relationship with humanity
3/ The purpose of life He assigns for humans
4/ How He communicates with mankind.

Other aspects you allude to are:
1/ The nature of good and evil and what God Teaches us as how best to respond.
2/ The nature and purpose of suffering
3/ Life after death

So the issues you raised are multifaceted and complex.

I’m aware William Hatcher a Baha’i scholar has written about these points using Baha’i writings. I’m sure many other Baha’is have too.

So, let me get this straight, God created eternal spirit beings... us, which is our true reality. Correct? Then, he creates the physical world and puts those spirit beings into temporary physical bodies and then tests those physical beings. What does he expect from fallible humans? Why would he expect them to pass any of his tests? So why should the spirit part of us suffer for the mistakes of the temporary physical part that is not our true self? We are put in physical bodies that don't know much about anything... that have to discover the truth about the world and about God. But in this world there are several ideas about what is true. Yet, God blames fallible people when they get it wrong? Seems like a crazy system.

If you are talking about humans as being created by God, having a soul and progressing through both this world and the next, then this worldview is consistent with a Baha’i perspective along with the other Abrahamic Faiths.

So what does God expect from us? According to Bahá’u’lláh in the Kitab-I-Aqdas our duty first duty is to recognise the Manifestation of God for this day and the second to follow every ordinance Revealed by Him.

According to Bahá’u’lláh in the short obligatory prayer God has created us to know and worship Him.

Jesus when asked what was the most important commandment, said we should love God will all our being and then we should love our neighbours and even our enemies. He was essentially referring to Deuteronomy 6:4-6 so it is there in Judaism and of course Islam too.

However you look at it, the Manifestations of God provide clear guidance as to what is expected from us.

The nature of tests and suffering is a religious narrative the Abrahamic Faiths use to emphasise the journey of the soul as we progress towards God or turn away.

It could be argued that God has given us an abundance of guidance to assist us know the truth about Him, His purpose for us and how to successfully achieve that purpose.

It may seem crazy to you but it looks crystal clear and coherent to me.

God has put lots of people in horrible situations and they have come out hating God and everyone around them. God has made people with high intelligence that questioned religious ideas, ideas that even Baha'is say are false, and they have concluded that there is no God. So both of them have failed God's testing. People seeing the light and swearing that their religion is right, but it's not. They failed the test.

It is true that some hate God and others deny God as a result of their life experiences. As humans we have intelligence and how we use that intelligence is as much a moral issue as a philosophical one. Using the metaphor of tests, we can pass or fail those tests. Some tests have implications for our progress in both this world and the next according to Abrahamic traditions. If I aspire to become a medical doctor I absolutely need to meet the standard that is expected of me. If I fall short I shouldn’t be practicing medicine.

Now, there is a test for you. How to answer without sounding like you're proselytizing.

God is merciful. I hope my responses here sound less preachy than my earlier post. If I fall short then I humbly beseech His forgiveness and mercy.

 

[Dawnofhope]

For me it's all about Logic---The things we are supposed to believe simply defy Logic.

Welcome to RF @Alonzo Tanner . So what is it we are supposed to believe and what’s illogical about it?

 

[FooYang]

You look like you heard of atheists from some dubious source, but never actually met any.

Completely true! you told that looser. All Atheists are complete experts and are irrefutable because they're completely logical.

This world's theists are the problem, they can't even prove this superman that flies around in the sky. Who in their right mind believes a giant built the universe with his own hands?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

A nice stab at obfuscation.

And you are still wrong at every level of wrongness. Nice.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Faith is not the opposite of reason because faith can be based upon reason..

Nope. Faith that is based on reason, isn't actually faith-- it's knowledge.

But your attempt to re-define things to suit your false narrative is duly noted and added to the very long list.

Faith is however necessary to please God. You should know that after all your experience with Christianity..

Because the god you believe in is an egotistical monster?

Or is it that your god knows that rational people would never be happen in "heaven", constantly kissing the behind of this "god", forever?

Especially, if a person knows the god who's behind is being lip-waxed, has also put the majority of folk into an infinite torture pit?

A moral person would never abide such a place! Your god? Immoral.

I have no desire to "please" such a monster-- it is wholly undeserving of even attention.

It is a double-edged sword Bob. If you do not want to have faith, you will never please God and God will not guide you to the truth, since God does not come running after nonbelievers..

See above: Your god seems to crave the gullible and the foolish most of all.

Likely because anyone with an Ethical Mind, would be unhappy with infinite torture.

 

[FooYang]

A moral person would never abide such a place! Your god? Immoral.

I have no desire to "please" such a monster-- it is wholly undeserving of even attention.

True, worshiping terrible monsters is not moral. No wonder people who worship terrible monsters (without even any physical evidence) are such evil people.

 

[LuisDantas]

Completely true! you told that looser. All Atheists are complete experts and are irrefutable because they're completely logical.

This world's theists are the problem, they can't even prove this superman that flies around in the sky. Who in their right mind believes a giant built the universe with his own hands?

Are you quite well?

 

[FooYang]

Are you quite well?

Yes I am now that you're here. These theists are completely stupid and they think they can criticize us.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Atheists are happy in East also. Not that theists are any less happier. Actually both are happy because we do not try to force our different views on each other. The Eastern theism is a family theism. "Twameva mata cha pita twameva, twameva bandhushcha sakha twameva" (you are my mother and my father, you are my relative and my friend). If you don't worship one God or Goddess and worship another, that is no demerit. They do not mind even if you don't worship any God/Goddess. What all they require is for you to 'fulfill your duties and engage in righteous action' (that is 'dharma'). Just be a nice, civilized person. That is different from the dark Abrahamic theism. "Accept me (only), worship me (only), accept this person (only) as my sole-selling agent (prophet/son/messenger/manifestation/mahdi) or you go to hell for eternity."

I like that philosophy very much. It's simliar to the Napkin Religion. Have you heard of it?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Dang! Bad day? FYI, Evidence that is only evident for one person, is evidence to that person.

But that is stretching the meaning, way out of shape-- if that person cannot convince others that this "evidence" is evidence? Then it's not evidence at all, but faith.

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not explain them because I do not know the Old Testament well enough to explain them.
Perhaps someone like Adrian could explain them since he knows the Bible well.

But you made the statement...

God does not tell people to do things that go against scriptures so God does not tell people to kill people.

But worry not, Tony jumped in with the typical Baha'i response... it is symbolic.

The sword of Truth does not have to be a steel blade.

So, for Baha'is, God never told the Hebrews to literally kill their friends and neighbors, nor kill the people in the different cities in the land of Canaan. He meant that they take the symbolic sword of truth and slay the evil out of them. The verses are Joshua 10:40 and Exodus 32:27. Is that what you think? Or, did the Bible writers credit God with saying something that he didn't say?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

So what? That doses not mean there are many Gods.

Indeed-- it does not even mean that there is one. People used to think the world was flat. They used to think Lightning was from gods. They used to think crazy people were possessed by spirits.

They were wrong. All of them.

It's far more likely they are also wrong about gods...

 

[LuisDantas]

Yes I am now that you're here. These theists are completely stupid and they think they can criticize us.

What are you up to?

 

[Trailblazer]

But you made the statement...

But worry not, Tony jumped in with the typical Baha'i response... it is symbolic.

So, for Baha'is, God never told the Hebrews to literally kill their friends and neighbors, nor kill the people in the different cities in the land of Canaan. He meant that they take the symbolic sword of truth and slay the evil out of them. The verses are Joshua 10:40 and Exodus 32:27. Is that what you think? Or, did the Bible writers credit God with saying something that he didn't say?

Sorry I made that statement, I will try to remember not to talk about what I do not know about or care about.
Who cares about what happened over 4000 years ago? I guess you do... Why you do I cannot understand.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

A person can know by faith because they get guidance from God.

Prove it. What? You just made that up, again? Yeah...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

No, it doesn't. You just think it does. But judging from the way you accused me of "in the future attacking a religious person and calling him a paranoid schitzophreniac" then i should probably not put much faith into what you could possibly know.

A 50-something adult acting like a child.





No, you ignored my post about it.





This is YOU explaining what I AM going to do to a random guy called "John" and then proclaiming that i have issues due to it (lol) and then you forget, maybe even for a second, that this is literally you making a claim of me attacking a random person in the future and judging me for it...

You can't make that **** up, i'll give you that. But seriously, do you realize that you talking like that, is actually YOU talking like that.

He never heard of "edit".... *sigh*

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

God did not write the Bible. Humans wrote it. It was inspired by God. Just because people said God did x does not mean God did x.

Prove it.

1) Prove gods are possible
2) Prove gods are capable and willing to "inspire" humans
3) Prove gods, after "inspiring" are okay with the fallible message

No religion has ever managed to get past step 1, above...

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha’is believe we have a soul that is closely associated with the physical body and the existence of that soul begins at conception.

That answers what I was asking about the "spirit being" part of people. You call it a soul and it didn't exist until a physical body was conceived. Then, from that point on it is eternal. So both the soul and physical body know nothing? The body learns and grows, makes mistakes, but is supposed to come to realize that the body is not its true self. And to stop leaving for the body but to live its life for the future spiritual world? And, right now, not one religion, other than the Baha'is, have the updated and correct truth about God and how to do the right things to be in a good position to be close to God in the next world?