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What about the 7-day creation story?
- Thread starter look3467
- Start date
s2a
Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
mingmty
Scientist
7 is god because 3 is earth and 4 is heaven and 4 + 3 = 7, and 6 is the devil because couldn't get to be 7, or some other odd equations; read about it long ago and can't remember very well, but is numerology.
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
I don't think that it has anything to do with nuerology. For whatever reason, some numbers have special significance in the cultures that produced the Bible: 7 and 40 are the most important, and also 3.
There is no rational explanation for it.
There is no rational explanation for it.
Super Universe
Defender of God
The universe is built on mathematical principles. One, three, five, seven, nine, and eleven are prime numbers.
One is God.
Three is the Trinity.
Seven is the universe.
Eleven is the dimensions.
One is God.
Three is the Trinity.
Seven is the universe.
Eleven is the dimensions.
Halcyon
Lord of the Badgers
You forgot 12 - 12 tribes, 12 apostles etc.
Comet
Harvey Wallbanger
John_672
Omnitheist
"Seven & Twelve... Where do all these numbers come from and what do they mean?!?!"
You aren't going to like the answer. It's astrology. There are seven planets, and twelve zodiac signs. In the times that the Bible were written, astrology was accepted as a science. I know it isn't accepted by modern Christians and is widely thought of as being superstition, but there is no changing the facts that these numbers are the heritage of astrology. You only need to look at a calender to see that it's true.
As far as concerning the answer to the universe and everything, 42? The Jewish mystical tradition has it that God's true name is 42 letters long. And the prevalence of the number 40? No idea - but I wouldn't be surprised if Qabalah made some reference to the number.
You aren't going to like the answer. It's astrology. There are seven planets, and twelve zodiac signs. In the times that the Bible were written, astrology was accepted as a science. I know it isn't accepted by modern Christians and is widely thought of as being superstition, but there is no changing the facts that these numbers are the heritage of astrology. You only need to look at a calender to see that it's true.
As far as concerning the answer to the universe and everything, 42? The Jewish mystical tradition has it that God's true name is 42 letters long. And the prevalence of the number 40? No idea - but I wouldn't be surprised if Qabalah made some reference to the number.
Well, so far, no matches to my view on the subject, but of the normal sort of answers.Yes, 12 represents the world system, a doz, 12 jurors, 12 months, 12 constellations etc.the Number ten represents heavenly government, 10 Commandments, 10x12= the 120 at Pentecost, ten thousands times 10 thousands etc.They all have a significance, but the number 7 is the picture of all of it, by which the 7 is divided in two and the one day left over is the third time or completion number.GEN 41:32 And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass. Can anybody see it?Peace>>>AJ
Booko
Deviled Hen
Booko
Deviled Hen
Engyo's comment about 3 representing the divine and 4 the earthly and their union being 7 was pretty apt, numerologically speaking.
Where would you suggest it should be?
It doesn't fit any organized religion for none of them can see it as key to understanding the bible, in my opinion.
So, I figure a non debatable topic opened for discussion.
No one wins, no one losses, yet everyone can have a say so.
Peace>>>AJ
Since the bible speaks of a 7-day creation story, then there must be more to that story than just a story.
I believe that in understanding that story and how it is used in the creation process, we'd find that we all have many things in common, especially when it comes to the spirit that is in mankind.
Peace>>>AJ
I believe that in understanding that story and how it is used in the creation process, we'd find that we all have many things in common, especially when it comes to the spirit that is in mankind.
Peace>>>AJ
Mike182
Flaming Queer
biblical debates?
just because it's a debate forum doesn't mean you can't hold discussions.
Ancient peoples were intimidated, intrigued, and inspired by 'the heavens', populated as they were by gods, spirits, and omens. With the evolution of the nascent priesthood astrology inspired mythology which, in recipricol fashion, informed mythology.
Chief among these objects of intimidation, intrigue, and inspiration were the great luminaries: the sun, moon, and the 5 visible planets.
As I've noted before, Yi-Fu Tuan elegantly defines religion as "the impulse for coherence and meaning." We are a pattern-matching organism, and the god-of-the-gaps is little more than an anthropomorphic and anthropopathic evolution of a primitive mysticism-of-the-gaps. That our early ancestors in Mesopotamia and the Levant would imbue the number 7 with "coherence and meaning" is not at all surprising. It was, in fact, deeply and wonderfully human.
For us to do so now is simply ignorant.
Chief among these objects of intimidation, intrigue, and inspiration were the great luminaries: the sun, moon, and the 5 visible planets.
As I've noted before, Yi-Fu Tuan elegantly defines religion as "the impulse for coherence and meaning." We are a pattern-matching organism, and the god-of-the-gaps is little more than an anthropomorphic and anthropopathic evolution of a primitive mysticism-of-the-gaps. That our early ancestors in Mesopotamia and the Levant would imbue the number 7 with "coherence and meaning" is not at all surprising. It was, in fact, deeply and wonderfully human.
For us to do so now is simply ignorant.
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
Greetings!
I would say that, very simply, ALL small numbers tend to appear often, and that while there is clearly significance attached to various numbers by given groups, this isn't in any sense universal or an objective number property!
As to the creation story (to get back to your original topic), in the Baha'i view its significance is quite different from the common understanding (as well as definitely not beling at all literal). The Baha'i scriptures explain it as follows:
Question. - What is the truth of the story of Adam, and His eating of the fruit of the tree?
Answer. - In the Bible it is written that God put Adam in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and take care of it, and said to Him: Eat of every tree of the garden except the tree of good and evil, for if You eat of that, You will die. Then it is said that God caused Adam to sleep, and He took one of His ribs and created woman in order that she might be His companion. After that it is said the serpent induced the woman to eat of the tree, saying: God has forbidden you to eat of the tree in order that your eyes may not be opened, and that you may not know good from evil. Then Eve ate from the tree and gave unto Adam, Who also ate; their eyes were opened, they found themselves naked, and they hid their bodies with leaves. In consequence of this act they received the reproaches of God. God said to Adam: Hast Thou eaten of the forbidden tree? Adam answered: Eve tempted Me, and I did eat. God then reproved Eve; Eve said: The serpent tempted me, and I did eat. For this the serpent was cursed, and enmity was put between the serpent and Eve, and between their descendants. And God said: The man is become like unto Us, knowing good and evil, and perhaps He will eat of the tree of life and live forever. So God guarded the tree of life.
If we take this story in its apparent meaning, according to the interpretation of the masses, it is indeed extraordinary. The intelligence cannot accept it, affirm it, or imagine it; for such arrangements, such details, such speeches and reproaches are far from being those of an intelligent man, how much less of the Divinity - that Divinity Who has organized this infinite universe in the most perfect form, and its innumerable inhabitants with absolute system, strength and perfection.
We must reflect a little: if the literal meaning of this story were attributed to a wise man, certainly all would logically deny that this arrangement, this invention, could have emanated from an intelligent being. Therefore, this story of Adam and Eve who ate from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradise, must be thought of simply as a symbol. It contains divine mysteries and universal meanings, and it is capable of marvelous explanations. Only those who are initiated into mysteries, and those who are near the Court of the All-Powerful, are aware of these secrets. Hence these verses of the Bible have numerous meanings.
We will explain one of them, and we will say: Adam signifies the heavenly spirit of Adam, and Eve His human soul. For in some passages in the Holy Books where women are mentioned, they represent the soul of man. The tree of good and evil signifies the human world; for the spiritual and divine world is purely good and absolutely luminous, but in the human world light and darkness, good and evil, exist as opposite conditions.
The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world. This attachment of the spirit to the human world led the soul and spirit of Adam from the world of freedom to the world of bondage and caused Him to turn from the Kingdom of Unity to the human world. When the soul and spirit of Adam entered the human world, He came out from the paradise of freedom and fell into the world of bondage. From the height of purity and absolute goodness, He entered into the world of good and evil.
[continues]
Best,
Bruce
I would say that, very simply, ALL small numbers tend to appear often, and that while there is clearly significance attached to various numbers by given groups, this isn't in any sense universal or an objective number property!
As to the creation story (to get back to your original topic), in the Baha'i view its significance is quite different from the common understanding (as well as definitely not beling at all literal). The Baha'i scriptures explain it as follows:
Chapter 30
ADAM and EVE
Question. - What is the truth of the story of Adam, and His eating of the fruit of the tree?
Answer. - In the Bible it is written that God put Adam in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and take care of it, and said to Him: Eat of every tree of the garden except the tree of good and evil, for if You eat of that, You will die. Then it is said that God caused Adam to sleep, and He took one of His ribs and created woman in order that she might be His companion. After that it is said the serpent induced the woman to eat of the tree, saying: God has forbidden you to eat of the tree in order that your eyes may not be opened, and that you may not know good from evil. Then Eve ate from the tree and gave unto Adam, Who also ate; their eyes were opened, they found themselves naked, and they hid their bodies with leaves. In consequence of this act they received the reproaches of God. God said to Adam: Hast Thou eaten of the forbidden tree? Adam answered: Eve tempted Me, and I did eat. God then reproved Eve; Eve said: The serpent tempted me, and I did eat. For this the serpent was cursed, and enmity was put between the serpent and Eve, and between their descendants. And God said: The man is become like unto Us, knowing good and evil, and perhaps He will eat of the tree of life and live forever. So God guarded the tree of life.
If we take this story in its apparent meaning, according to the interpretation of the masses, it is indeed extraordinary. The intelligence cannot accept it, affirm it, or imagine it; for such arrangements, such details, such speeches and reproaches are far from being those of an intelligent man, how much less of the Divinity - that Divinity Who has organized this infinite universe in the most perfect form, and its innumerable inhabitants with absolute system, strength and perfection.
We must reflect a little: if the literal meaning of this story were attributed to a wise man, certainly all would logically deny that this arrangement, this invention, could have emanated from an intelligent being. Therefore, this story of Adam and Eve who ate from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradise, must be thought of simply as a symbol. It contains divine mysteries and universal meanings, and it is capable of marvelous explanations. Only those who are initiated into mysteries, and those who are near the Court of the All-Powerful, are aware of these secrets. Hence these verses of the Bible have numerous meanings.
We will explain one of them, and we will say: Adam signifies the heavenly spirit of Adam, and Eve His human soul. For in some passages in the Holy Books where women are mentioned, they represent the soul of man. The tree of good and evil signifies the human world; for the spiritual and divine world is purely good and absolutely luminous, but in the human world light and darkness, good and evil, exist as opposite conditions.
The meaning of the serpent is attachment to the human world. This attachment of the spirit to the human world led the soul and spirit of Adam from the world of freedom to the world of bondage and caused Him to turn from the Kingdom of Unity to the human world. When the soul and spirit of Adam entered the human world, He came out from the paradise of freedom and fell into the world of bondage. From the height of purity and absolute goodness, He entered into the world of good and evil.
[continues]
Best,
Bruce
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
[continued]
The tree of life is the highest degree of the world of existence: the position of the Word of God, and the supreme Manifestation. Therefore, that position has been preserved; and, at the appearance of the most noble supreme Manifestation, it became apparent and clear. For the position of Adam, with regard to the appearance and manifestation of the divine perfections, was in the embryonic condition; the position of Christ was the condition of maturity and the age of reason; and the rising of the Greatest Luminary was the condition of the perfection of the essence and of the qualities. This is why in the supreme Paradise the tree of life is the expression for the center of absolutely pure sanctity - that is to say, of the divine supreme Manifestation. From the days of Adam until the days of Christ, They spoke little of eternal life and the heavenly universal perfections. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits.
Now consider how far this meaning conforms to the reality. For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in the midst of, and at enmity with, the spirits and the descendants of Adam. That enmity continues and endures. For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity. It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position.
When the sanctified breezes of Christ and the holy light of the Greatest Luminary were spread abroad, the human realities - that is to say, those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties - were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, I gave My blood for the life of the world - that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins (that is, the detachment of spirits from the human world, and their attraction to the divine world) in order that souls may arise who will be the very essence of the guidance of mankind, and the manifestations of the perfections of the Supreme Kingdom.
Observe that if, according to the suppositions of the People of the Book, the meaning were taken in its exoteric sense, it would be absolute injustice and complete predestination. If Adam sinned by going near the forbidden tree, what was the sin of the glorious Abraham, and what was the error of Moses the Interlocutor? What was the crime of Noah the Prophet? What was the transgression of Joseph the Truthful? What was the iniquity of the Prophets of God, and what was the trespass of John the Chaste? Would the justice of God have allowed these enlightened Manifestations, on account of the sin of Adam, to find torment in hell until Christ came and by the sacrifice of Himself saved them from excruciating tortures? Such an idea is beyond every law and rule and cannot be accepted by any intelligent person.
No; it means what has already been said: Adam is the spirit of Adam, and Eve is His soul; the tree is the human world, and the serpent is that attachment to this world which constitutes sin, and which has infected the descendants of Adam. Christ by His holy breezes saved men from this attachment and freed them from this sin. The sin in Adam is relative to His position. Although from this attachment there proceed results, nevertheless, attachment to the earthly world, in relation to attachment to the spiritual world, is considered as a sin. The good deeds of the righteous are the sins of the Near Ones. This is established. So bodily power is not only defective in relation to spiritual power; it is weakness in comparison. In the same way, physical life, in comparison with eternal life in the Kingdom, is considered as death. So Christ called the physical life death, and said: Let the dead bury their dead. Though those souls possessed physical life,
yet in His eyes that life was death.
This is one of the meanings of the biblical story of Adam. Reflect until you discover the others.
Salutations be upon you.
(Abdul-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pages 122-126)
Best,
Bruce
The tree of life is the highest degree of the world of existence: the position of the Word of God, and the supreme Manifestation. Therefore, that position has been preserved; and, at the appearance of the most noble supreme Manifestation, it became apparent and clear. For the position of Adam, with regard to the appearance and manifestation of the divine perfections, was in the embryonic condition; the position of Christ was the condition of maturity and the age of reason; and the rising of the Greatest Luminary was the condition of the perfection of the essence and of the qualities. This is why in the supreme Paradise the tree of life is the expression for the center of absolutely pure sanctity - that is to say, of the divine supreme Manifestation. From the days of Adam until the days of Christ, They spoke little of eternal life and the heavenly universal perfections. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits.
Now consider how far this meaning conforms to the reality. For the spirit and the soul of Adam, when they were attached to the human world, passed from the world of freedom into the world of bondage, and His descendants continued in bondage. This attachment of the soul and spirit to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in the midst of, and at enmity with, the spirits and the descendants of Adam. That enmity continues and endures. For attachment to the world has become the cause of the bondage of spirits, and this bondage is identical with sin, which has been transmitted from Adam to His posterity. It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and exalted position.
When the sanctified breezes of Christ and the holy light of the Greatest Luminary were spread abroad, the human realities - that is to say, those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties - were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, I gave My blood for the life of the world - that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins (that is, the detachment of spirits from the human world, and their attraction to the divine world) in order that souls may arise who will be the very essence of the guidance of mankind, and the manifestations of the perfections of the Supreme Kingdom.
Observe that if, according to the suppositions of the People of the Book, the meaning were taken in its exoteric sense, it would be absolute injustice and complete predestination. If Adam sinned by going near the forbidden tree, what was the sin of the glorious Abraham, and what was the error of Moses the Interlocutor? What was the crime of Noah the Prophet? What was the transgression of Joseph the Truthful? What was the iniquity of the Prophets of God, and what was the trespass of John the Chaste? Would the justice of God have allowed these enlightened Manifestations, on account of the sin of Adam, to find torment in hell until Christ came and by the sacrifice of Himself saved them from excruciating tortures? Such an idea is beyond every law and rule and cannot be accepted by any intelligent person.
No; it means what has already been said: Adam is the spirit of Adam, and Eve is His soul; the tree is the human world, and the serpent is that attachment to this world which constitutes sin, and which has infected the descendants of Adam. Christ by His holy breezes saved men from this attachment and freed them from this sin. The sin in Adam is relative to His position. Although from this attachment there proceed results, nevertheless, attachment to the earthly world, in relation to attachment to the spiritual world, is considered as a sin. The good deeds of the righteous are the sins of the Near Ones. This is established. So bodily power is not only defective in relation to spiritual power; it is weakness in comparison. In the same way, physical life, in comparison with eternal life in the Kingdom, is considered as death. So Christ called the physical life death, and said: Let the dead bury their dead. Though those souls possessed physical life,
yet in His eyes that life was death.
This is one of the meanings of the biblical story of Adam. Reflect until you discover the others.
Salutations be upon you.
(Abdul-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pages 122-126)
Best,
Bruce
Bruce, very well put.
But missing that ingredient by which the 7-day creation was instituted to reverse the original condition of what your post alluded to, and that is God doing it in human form.
Yes, there were prophets of which the spirit of God spoke through, but never, not one of them were declared as begotten of God, as a son.
There was as the Book of revelation points out, the power and authority as God in Christ, to overcome, turn anew, that spiritual condition, mentioned in your post to our benefit.
The 7-day creation story is used to take Christ and visit each day, gather from each day all occurrences, bring them to the end of the sixth, crucify them in His body and rest from all that work on the Sabbath.
What that does is make Christ the cross between the old and the new.
I would say that you and I have somewhat similar views, yet varying, but not such that we couldn't enjoy a healthy discussion.
Peace>>>AJ
But missing that ingredient by which the 7-day creation was instituted to reverse the original condition of what your post alluded to, and that is God doing it in human form.
Yes, there were prophets of which the spirit of God spoke through, but never, not one of them were declared as begotten of God, as a son.
There was as the Book of revelation points out, the power and authority as God in Christ, to overcome, turn anew, that spiritual condition, mentioned in your post to our benefit.
The 7-day creation story is used to take Christ and visit each day, gather from each day all occurrences, bring them to the end of the sixth, crucify them in His body and rest from all that work on the Sabbath.
What that does is make Christ the cross between the old and the new.
I would say that you and I have somewhat similar views, yet varying, but not such that we couldn't enjoy a healthy discussion.
Peace>>>AJ