What about the unvaccinated?

[Secret Chief]

One useful way for stores to accommodate the unvaccinated
here is curbside service. Some stores here have done this
for all customers, ie, vaccination status is made irrelevant.

Texas isn't the only state with anti-vax health care workers.
We have'm here in blue northern states too. Damn that
human nature...it's everywhere!

Yes, shops and restaurants here have had to be creative / inventive - curbside, home delivery, order & collect etc. Some of that is still happening but much has been able to revert back.

 

[Debater Slayer]

@Xavier Graham AS You have my full support I may not have a schizophrenic tendency but I refuse to believe in the government and their "agenda" of vaccines.

Setting aside any governmental "agenda," what do you think of the fact that major health organizations around the world strongly recommend vaccines unless one is among the small minority of people who have a medical reason not to take them? Does the expert consensus have any effect on your view?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Setting aside any governmental "agenda," what do you think of the fact that major health organizations around the world strongly recommend vaccines unless one is among the small minority of people who have a medical reason not to take them? Does the expert consensus have any effect on your view?

My personal view is that they are bought and paid for by the companies who make the vaccines. No, I do not believe the vaccine is as effective as they want us to believe,

 

[Debater Slayer]

I’m a diagnosed schizophrenic. As a result, I am 100% paranoid of all governments and CANNOT trust them in the slightest. The government is pressuring me to get vaccinated. Due to my paranoia, that is something I can never do (as someone who is being treated efficiently for my condition).
So what about me? I’ll never have a vaccination card. Do people want me to be segregated from society? With all these talks of vaccine passports and mandates, I feel like my time in participating in society is completely over. I feel absolutely discriminated against. I will never get the vaccine. I CANT get the vaccine, as my paranoid views of the government won’t change. They’re the illuminati who drink baby blood and want to sterilize all of us, yo. I don’t see that belief of mine being able to change, and that is a symptom of what I have.
So what about me? I’ll never get the jab, so is society going to completely shun me now? What about the people who cannot get the vaccine. Like legitimately they cannot, it’s not just an opinion of theirs. What about us? It feels like society is abandoning us. I am not alone in this predicament.

I'm sorry to read about your distress from this. Severe mental illnesses can be even more dangerous than visible physical ones, and I can definitely believe that distress from schizophrenia could be as harmful as a virus.

I hope you can either get an exemption based on your condition or have some specific accommodation for it. As someone who is planning to get vaccinated as soon as I can, I believe those of us who can get vaccinated have a responsibility to accommodate those who can't as much as possible. People shouldn't assume that everyone can get vaccinated or disregard conditions like yours.

 

[Debater Slayer]

My personal view is that they are bought and paid for by the companies who make the vaccines. No, I do not believe the vaccine is as effective as they want us to believe,

Needless to say, I entirely disagree with this for multiple reasons, although I recognize that many large corporations are prone to corruption.

Pursuing this discussion in this thread would derail it, though, so I'll opt to leave the discussion at that.

 

[Revoltingest]

My personal view is that they are bought and paid for by the companies who make the vaccines. No, I do not believe the vaccine is as effective as they want us to believe,

Is there any organization that you trust for epidemiological
information? Whether or not corporations are corrupt,
there are measurable results from vaccination.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I’m a diagnosed schizophrenic. As a result, I am 100% paranoid of all governments and CANNOT trust them in the slightest. The government is pressuring me to get vaccinated. Due to my paranoia, that is something I can never do (as someone who is being treated efficiently for my condition).
So what about me? I’ll never have a vaccination card. Do people want me to be segregated from society? With all these talks of vaccine passports and mandates, I feel like my time in participating in society is completely over. I feel absolutely discriminated against.

Sorry about your troubles, but in this matter, I don't see you as different from any other person who has no medical contraindication to the vaccine, yet refuses it because he fears the vaccine more than an unprotected COVID infection. They are also fear-driven, and their fear is also irrational.

Discrimination is only a problem when it is an irrational bias, like bigotry. We also discriminate intelligently, as when we don't let children buy alcohol or drive motor vehicles. There will likely be increasing discrimination against the unvaccinated such as with insurance coverage and rates. The unvaccinated will object, but both the insurers and the vaccinated want to shield themselves from the increasing expenses caused by such people indulging their fears. That's perfectly reasonable discrimination, which is simply distinguishing between different kinds of people and things, and treating them differently.

@Xavier Graham AS You have my full support I may not have a schizophrenic tendency but I refuse to believe in the government and their "agenda" of vaccines.

And there it is. You and the OP have similar beliefs. He calls himself schizophrenic. You don't. I told him that I don't see much difference between the two regarding their thinking about the vaccine.

My response is what about my freedom from infection? I'm going to lose perhaps two weeks of work. My goals for my cyclocross this fall are in question now. I missed out on an event tonight with a friend. Where's the freedom to have health and well being? This idealistic "freedom" argument fails when the issue of personal responsibility comes into play. Basic social contract theory is how the group cooperates together so the whole society can be its best, and that often takes small personal sacrifices. How many have died because some idealistic anti-masker infected them in public? There's no justification for it.

Your freedoms and concerns are not an issue for the unvaccinated. I have commented on this repeatedly of late in multiple threads - I can't find a scintilla of evidence that the fears of the vaccinated matter at all. You or I might discuss their fears as I just did above, but yours just aren't in their thoughts or words.

They care about their perceived right to work unvaccinated even in hospitals, but don't seem to have any interest in how that affects the people around them. It simply never comes up, not even in the form of, "Yes, I know they also have concerns, but I don't care," or, "Mine are more important." Your concerns simply don't matter to these people begging others to respect theirs.

This is similar to the remarkable phenomenon I've noted that you just can't get the willfully unvaccinated to discuss the risk of COVID in their analysis of whether to take the vaccine.

The last time I pointed this out - a day or two ago - I mentioned that the decision can only be made intelligently by comparing the risks of the vaccine to the risk of going unvaccinated, and the reply was a wall of words cut-and-paste from a source that was discussing vaccine side effects.

When this person told me that the long term effects of the vaccine were unknown, I answered that [1] no vaccine has been known to have late onset (more than 2-6 months after vaccination) complications and [2] you don't know what late complications might arise from a case of severe COVID, including shortened life expectancy, more frequent and earlier dementia, more frequent renal failure in diabetics, and the like. The reply ignored that and repeated that the vaccine isn't adequately studied.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Sorry about your troubles, but in this matter, I don't see you as different from any other person who has no medical contraindication to the vaccine, yet refuses it because he fears the vaccine more than an unprotected COVID infection. They are also fear-driven, and their fear is also irrational.

Discrimination is only a problem when it is an irrational bias, like bigotry. We also discriminate intelligently, as when we don't let children buy alcohol or drive motor vehicles. There will likely be increasing discrimination against the unvaccinated such as with insurance coverage and rates. The unvaccinated will object, but both the insurers and the vaccinated want to shield themselves from the increasing expenses caused by such people indulging their fears. That's perfectly reasonable discrimination, which is simply distinguishing between different kinds of people and things, and treating them differently.



And there it is. You and the OP have similar beliefs. He calls himself schizophrenic. You don't. I told him that I don't see much difference between the two regarding their thinking about the vaccine.



Your freedoms and concerns are not an issue for the unvaccinated. I have commented on this repeatedly of late in multiple threads - I can't find a scintilla of evidence that the fears of the vaccinated matter at all. You or I might discuss their fears as I just did above, but yours just aren't in their thoughts or words.

This is similar to the remarkable phenomenon I've noted that you just can't get the willfully unvaccinated to discuss the risk of COVID in their analysis of whether to take the vaccine. They care about their perceived right to work unvaccinated even in hospitals, but don't seem to have any interest in how that affects the people around them. It simply never comes up, not even in the form of, "Yes, I know they also have concerns, but I don't care," or, "Mine are more important." Your concerns simply don't matter to these people begging others to respect theirs.

The last time I pointed this out - a day or two ago - I mentioned that the decision can only be made intelligently by comparing the risks of the vaccine to the risk of going unvaccinated, and the reply was a wall of words cut-and-paste from a source that was discussing vaccine side effects. When this person told me that the long term effects of the vaccine were unknown, I answered that [a] no vaccine has been known to have late onset (more than 2-6 months after vaccination) complications and you don't know what late complications might arise from a case of severe COVID, including shortened life expectance, more frequent and earlier dementia, more frequent renal failure in diabetics, and the like. The reply ignored that and repeated that the vaccine isn't adequately studied.

What do you mean "there it is" ?
I have never had anyone diagnose me with schizophrenic tendency, and yes I have been tested.
But I do not trust government system

 

[Revoltingest]

What do you mean "there it is" ?
I have never had anyone diagnose me with schizophrenic tendency, and yes I have been tested.
But I do not trust government system

Is it that you think government is dishonest about Covid 19
being dangerous...or that it has a conspiratorial hand in
in vaccination (some secret agenda)? Or something else?

Remember that we have multiple vaccines made by different
companies. There are epidemiological studies by many
organizations showing efficacy in reducing the risk if death
& infirmity. Are Johns Hopkins, the CDC, the Mayo Clinic,
etc, all in on some vast conspiracy?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Is it that you think government is dishonest about Covid 19
being dangerous...or that it has a conspiratorial hand in
in vaccination (some secret agenda)? Or something else?

Remember that we have multiple vaccines made by different
companies. There are epidemiological studies by many
organizations showing efficacy in reducing the risk if death
& infirmity. Are Johns Hopkins, the CDC, the Mayo Clinic,
etc, all in on some vast conspiracy?

I do not trust what they put into the vaccine. Yes, it is for stopping covid, that I agree on. But I believe they also have a lot of unhealthy put into the vaccine.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I do not trust what they put into the vaccine. Yes, it is for stopping covid, that I agree on. But I believe they also have a lot of unhealthy put into the vaccine.

And I suppose you wouldn't trust anybody who has looked at the actual ingredients, regardless of having no government or corporate affiliation.

That's irrational paranoia.

 

[Spirit of Light]

And I suppose you wouldn't trust anybody who has looked at the actual ingredients, regardless of having no government or corporate affiliation.

That's irrational paranoia.

Normally I trust people without any problem, I just do not trust the pharma industry, they made the vaccine to fast, and people in my family died from taking it, so yes i am skeptical

 

[Revoltingest]

I do not trust what they put into the vaccine. Yes, it is for stopping covid, that I agree on. But I believe they also have a lot of unhealthy put into the vaccine.

What have you heard of?
What danger does it pose?
Is this danger greater than contracting Covid?

Some useful resources....
COVID-19 Vaccines: Myth Versus Fact
Is the COVID-19 Vaccine Safe?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Discrimination is only a problem when it is an irrational bias, like bigotry. We also discriminate intelligently, as when we don't let children buy alcohol or drive motor vehicles. There will likely be increasing discrimination against the unvaccinated such as with insurance coverage and rates. The unvaccinated will object, but both the insurers and the vaccinated want to shield themselves from the increasing expenses caused by such people indulging their fears. That's perfectly reasonable discrimination, which is simply distinguishing between different kinds of people and things, and treating them differently.

I just read in the newspaper this morning that my province (Ontario) is planning to have a "vaccine passport" ready "within weeks." It will be used to allow people into non-essential public gathering places -- bars and restaurants, gyms and fitness centres, possibly sports venues (indoors, like basketball), theatres and concert halls, and so forth.

I rather suspect that this is going to start happening elsewhere around the world.

It is becoming more and more evident that it is either that, or shut down the economy yet again -- and I strong doubt that the economy, or huge swaths of it, could handle that one more time.

 

[Spirit of Light]

What have you heard of?
What danger does it pose?
Is this danger greater than contracting Covid?

Some useful resources....
COVID-19 Vaccines: Myth Versus Fact

The danger as I see it is that one can die, as I said two in my family did die from the vaccine, and yes I seen the paper from the doctors who clearly state there was no other underlying sickness that caused their death. If this is something that lies in my family, I will not take the chance on the vaccine, I better protect my self and others by other means, like continue wearing mask, continue social distancing and so forth.

When I am the one not taking the vaccine, I am also responsible for not harming others, so I have to protect my self and them.

 

[Revoltingest]

The danger as I see it is that one can die, as I said two in my family did die from the vaccine, and yes I seen the paper from the doctors who clearly state there was no other underlying sickness that caused their death. If this is something that lies in my family, I will not take the chance on the vaccine, I better protect my self and others by other means, like continue wearing mask, continue social distancing and so forth.

When I am the one not taking the vaccine, I am also responsible for not harming others, so I have to protect my self and them.

OK.
Know anyone who died from Covid?

More info....
Mortality Rate and Characteristics of Deaths Following COVID-19 Vaccination - PubMed
Partial excerpt....
Data on deaths following COVID-19 vaccination were obtained from the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) from December 11, 2020 through January 8, 2021. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) COVID Data Tracker was used to identify the total number of people receiving COVID-19 vaccines during the same period to estimate the mortality rate. Stratified analysis was conducted by the location of vaccination. Results: As of January 8, 2021, 55 deaths were reported, and the mortality rate of COVID-19 vaccination was 8.2 per million population. A total of 37 deaths were reported among long-term care facility residents, and the mortality rate was 53.4 per million population.

8.2 divided by 1 million is a mortality rate of 0.00082%.

Covid 19 mortality (ie, case fatality) in Norway is lower than most countries at 0.5%
Still, this makes death by Covid /death by vaccination ratio = 610.
Those are pretty compelling odds, the risk of your family history notwithstanding.
And for Ameristan, that ratio is 2,074 generally...6,100 for people over 70.
Ref...
Mortality Analyses - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center

 

[Debater Slayer]

The danger as I see it is that one can die, as I said two in my family did die from the vaccine, and yes I seen the paper from the doctors who clearly state there was no other underlying sickness that caused their death. If this is something that lies in my family, I will not take the chance on the vaccine, I better protect my self and others by other means, like continue wearing mask, continue social distancing and so forth.

When I am the one not taking the vaccine, I am also responsible for not harming others, so I have to protect my self and them.

Are you able to discuss with your doctors whether your country offers any specific vaccine that could be safer than others for you given your family's medical history as well as your own?

Stay safe. I hope you can safely get a vaccine or at least manage to avoid catching the virus.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Normally I trust people without any problem, I just do not trust the pharma industry, they made the vaccine to fast, and people in my family died from taking it, so yes i am skeptical

I'm not in the pharma industry, government or any corporate lab. But I've seen the ingredients (and have the training to know what they are) and they aren't worrying. Some lipids, some salts, some sugars, and some mRNA.

The vaccine was made fast because it had redundant testing from many clinics at once, far more than usual procedures. Which is typical of how medicine research during a pandemic works. That doesn't mean it was 'too fast' and if you don't have the knowledge about ingredients than you certainly don't have the knowledge of how fast is 'too fast.'

And I highly doubt any of your relatives died from the vaccine. But if one did, it's extremely rare. Far more likely to die of covid by orders of magnitudes. My entire family including frail older grandparents and immunocompromised family all got vaccinated with no major side effects.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Are you able to discuss with your doctors whether your country offers any specific vaccine that could be safer than others for you given your family's medical history as well as your own?

Stay safe. I hope you can safely get a vaccine or at least manage to avoid catching the virus.

There are only two options in Norway and they are Moderna and Phifer vaccines and unfortunately, I found that my relatives who died had taken both (not as a mix).

But I am as careful as I can be, I honestly do not want to harm others because of my choice

 

[Debater Slayer]

There are only two options in Norway and they are Moderna and Phifer vaccines and unfortunately, I found that my relatives who died had taken both (not as a mix).

But I am as careful as I can be, I honestly do not want to harm others because of my choice

Sorry to hear about your relatives. The odds of dying from vaccines, especially the two you mentioned, are extremely low, but I can't comment on the specific situation you mentioned because I don't feel that would be appropriate without having professional knowledge of their medical history. I hope any of your other relatives who have gotten vaccinated are okay.