What are "Religious People?"

[Iti oj]

Not the same thing


lib·er·al
[ˈlib(ə)rəl]
ADJECTIVE

1. open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values:

Sometimes a word means what is says

Well cheers to that

 

[columbus]

Something else, @Quintessence .
Long ago I used the term "religionist" in a post. You asked what I meant. I intended to get back with that but got sidetracked.
To me, it is another word for hard theist. Some religious people are strong believers in a religion. They may or may not care about the details, or contradictions in the beliefs. But it is a very personal thing. What other people believe is not important. Those are soft theists.
Other people feel it quite important to have the correct beliefs, and that everyone else recognize the beliefs as true. The details usually matter more to hard theists. When possible they are more likely to proselytise, attempt to influence school curriculum to match their religious beliefs, pass legislation, and things like that.
I find them mainly to be Christian and Muslim in the world around me. In other places it is doubtless other religious groups.

Tom

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't see it as awkward. But no, I don't see you as religious. Maybe just a tinge. I don't see theist/atheist as a very useful division, in circumstances where more nuance is feasible, like RF.

(...)

To me, the main difference between theism and everything else is human authority. If someone bases their god image and worldview on what they have been told by someone else they are religious. Prophet, scriptures, traditions are the main sources. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I get the impression that your beliefs are almost entirely a function of your own experience and observation and interaction with that. That is very different from someone who gets their beliefs from what they are taught by scholars and scriptures and such.
So no, I don't think you are religious. Not that it matters to me if you think you are. YMMV This is just the way I see things.
Tom

Are you implying that it takes theism for one to be religious? Or having beliefs that are not mainly of personal origin?

 

[Smart_Guy]

I personally consider whoever belongs to a religion on their own accord and practices the basics of that religion as a proof for that belonging, a religious person.

I'm Muslim and I practice the five pillars of Islam, so I call myself a religious person. Other than that, religiousness I believe is gradable. I don't go to all prayers in a mosque, which is an Islamic teaching, so I lack this feature of Islamic religiousness. Other who do that are more religious than I am. In Islam this is called commitment.

 

[Quintessence]

You have been here long enough and know what it means.

And you know me well enough to know what I mean

I was actually being quite serious there. All I'm certain of is how I use the term and how you use the term seem to be dramatically different from each other. That frankly seems to be the case for a great number of terms, including this inherently derogatory and demeaning definition you have of "religious person."

I don't see it as awkward. But no, I don't see you as religious. Maybe just a tinge. I don't see theist/atheist as a very useful division, in circumstances where more nuance is feasible, like RF.

I'm a little confused here... weren't we talking about "religious people" not "theistic people" and "atheistic people?"

(did I just earn another dollar towards paying off my mortgage? )

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I get the impression that your beliefs are almost entirely a function of your own experience and observation and interaction with that. That is very different from someone who gets their beliefs from what they are taught by scholars and scriptures and such. So no, I don't think you are religious. Not that it matters to me if you think you are. YMMV This is just the way I see things.
Tom

It matters in the sense that how we categorize others (and ourselves) as "religious people" or not is a reflection of our own perspectives. That's what I'm finding interesting with respect to this thread and the topic. In your case you seem to be knitting together theism/atheism with this notion of "religious people" even though theism/atheism is distinct from religious/irreligious, technically. There seems to be a bit more to your perspective than that, though I'm having trouble teasing it out of that last post. Are you basically on the same page as leibowde with requiring religions to look like Abrahamic religions (aka, organized, a sacred text, dogma)?

As a brief aside, you're right that direct experience is a critical component of my way of life, but I definitely use outside sources of inspiration. Scholarly works are actually a huge source of inspiration for me - the sciences in particular - along with various arts (from contemporary graphic novels to the tales of our ancestors).

 

[Iti oj]

@Quintessence what role or relevance do you think ritual plays in being religious?
also did you see my other post?

edit also I think I owe you a dollar too

 

[outhouse]

So lets take emotions out of YOUR equation.

Take most people who are religious and ask yourself as popularity does dictate the general definition of religion. Are most religious people living a mythological based religious life?

The answer is factually yes. The abrahamic traditions does dictate the definition of religion for most people on the planet.


Do they believe in unsupported beliefs [faith] factually yes.

Faith and religion are often interchangeable words for heaven sake! I'm sorry if you don't like that.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Religion isn't synonymous with belief except when you make clear by context that you are narrowing the meaning to that alone. Religion is a practice, and 'Practising a religion' is a common phrase. Religion is more like 'Regimen' but pertains to your spiritual regimen which can include some beliefs: Buddhists do not accept belief, yet they are religious. 'Religion' is a polite term, too, or is meant to be. It does not imply that you have intimate knowledge of someone to merely refer to their religion. It is impolite to tell someone that they live a 'Mythologicaly based' life. Saying they have a religion does not imply that. It implies that they live in a way that you are referring to generally based upon their observed behaviours.

 

[outhouse]

It is impolite to tell someone that they live a 'Mythologicaly based' life.

Again I already stated the truth hurts sometimes when it comes to describing typical human behavior.

It is also not polite to have many religious people fighting against reality, education and academia.

Faith can be dangerous and it goes way beyond polite to make excuses for said behavior.

Saying they have a religion does not imply that

Actually it does. Most religious people factually live some degree of mythology. Again faith and religion are almost interchangeable.


Do you know of any religions that do not require faith ?

 

[outhouse]

It is impolite to tell someone that they live a 'Mythologicaly based' life.

Not in context to this thread where a definition is asked upon those who chose to participate.


If I just come out in any old thread and said that, it could be, depending on context.

 

[Quintessence]

i didnt think it was. I consider the sun worthy of reverence for me for the same reason and im sure we can both expand upon its importance to us, like it being the source of energy and life. I'm not sure i consider that religious . That's why i ask. I have also often stated the difference between beliefs on practices.

then again maybe im more religious then i like to admit

@Quintessence what role or relevance do you think ritual plays in being religious?
also did you see my other post?

edit also I think I owe you a dollar too

Hehe... don't worry about the dollar.

That word "religious" means different things to different people, inevitably. By itself, I tend to read the term as meaning "deep devotion" to something. Being religious about one's religion would mean it's not merely something that exists in one's headspace, but is something that is practiced. That includes ritual, but it also affects interpersonal interactions, one's life work or career choice, and so on. A way of life, basically. Personally, I'd argue that if one isn't religious about one's religion, it isn't one's religion at all... some other unnamed aspect of one's life is that person's "true" religion. I don't know if that makes any sense to you or anyone else.

That idea of someone being more "religious" than they like to admit is a curious one. If we have a lot of negative preconceptions about what that word means, we don't want to be associated with it. I was in that space once upon a time - calling me "religious" would evoke the same reaction as if someone had called me the scum of the earth or something. It was ridiculous.

 

[Quintessence]

Are most religious people living a mythological based religious life?

I have no idea what this boxcar phrase "mythologically based religious life" means, outhouse, much less what it means to you.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Do you know of any religions that do not require faith ?

Yes I do know of religions that don't require belief, and also the most important feature of the Abrahamic religions is not belief but fraternity. Judaism doesn't require belief as long as you practice the laws. That view may not be popular here at RF, but it is valid. Zen also doesn't require belief. Generally speaking any Buddhist tradition can result in the teaching of having no beliefs as well, at least according to some. That's two religions, but I will add Christianity and Islam. The Koran mentions that there are many Muslims who don't believe. It is very disparaging of them, but it insists that they exist. Clearly those people would count as religious non-believers. You in particular don't know for sure about Christianity for yourself, because you can't know everything about it. What I can tell you is that Christian doctrine derives from Judaism and unsurprisingly can be practised without belief as long as it is practised faithfully. It can be and sometimes is. It requires a specific understanding of the Christian doctrine and mission but not a belief in mythology. Speaking of secret, fraternal, inner Christian traditions: consider how long it takes to obtain initiation into some of its orders, such as the Jesuit order. Why does a Jesuit initiate have to study vows for two years? Why don't they study belief instead? It demonstrates fraternity is more important than beliefs. It does not follow that religion equals belief, although it usually does equal obedience, discipline and association. Religions can have inner traditions that are not known to all outsiders, because many religions are fraternal. You convert then find out. You might believe first, later or never. You don't know until you are in it and through it. Who is to say how many Muslims really believe anything, but they certainly do pray 5 times a day and call each other 'Brother'.

 

[outhouse]

I have no idea what this boxcar phrase "mythologically based religious life" means, outhouse, much less what it means to you.

Modern/Mythology = supernatural explanation of nature, and or legend, and or fiction.

Faith is something where faith is required.

 

[outhouse]

Abrahamic religions is not belief but fraternity

I cannot believe this. Not really up for debate.

Judaism believes in Yahweh
Christianity believes in Jesus
Islam allah

 

[Brickjectivity]

I cannot believe this. Not really up for debate.

It is what you are debating against, but its not up for debate?

 

[outhouse]

It is what you are debating against, but its not up for debate?

I'm telling you your position is not substantiated.


You need to provide a link and source your claim a Jew does not believe in Yahweh.

Or a Christian does not believe in Jesus

Or islam does not believe in allah

Most FACTUALLY do

 

[leibowde84]

To you, then, I am not a "religious person" because my religion does not meet these criteria?

No issue here.

 

[Quintessence]

No issue here.

I suppose I find that standard rather ethnocentric, so I can't quite agree with it. But considering anything that doesn't fall into the Western conception of religion is often ignored and dismissed in Western culture, I suppose in a fashion that's fair. I really am not represented by typical metrics on religiousness in my culture - to them I'm part of the so-called "decline" in religiosity in spite of being highly religious, but... meh.

 

[leibowde84]

I suppose I find that standard rather ethnocentric, so I can't quite agree with it. But considering anything that doesn't fall into the Western conception of religion is often ignored and dismissed in Western culture, I suppose in a fashion that's fair. I really am not represented by typical metrics on religiousness in my culture - to them I'm part of the so-called "decline" in religiosity in spite of being highly religious, but... meh.

My point was that having faith or adhering to one's own interpretation of God's will, using a skeptical mind, good will, and honest inquisitiveness is something different than being "religious". That's all.