What are the best arguments in favor of theism and against atheism?

[Ben Dhyan]

You responses is irrelevant and shows a dismal or deliberate misunderstanding of cosmology and quantum physics.

Actually it's you who has been doing the misdirection and moving goalposts, my stance has remained firm. It is based on scientific understanding, mathematical calculations and physical observations and measurements. There is no guesswork or faith involved, just hard facts.

Scientific theories are not the same thing as the reality they are meant to represent. In fact all conceptual representations of reality, be they verbal, mathematical, symbolical, etc., are stuff generated by the human mind, the actual reality they are meant to represent is on the other side.

So you are twice removed from reality, first by relying on conceptual theories, ideas, etc, and secondly by your not even understanding the actual explanations and workings of the conceptual theories you believe in..

If you desire to apprehend reality directly, you must cease all thought processes that obscure the reality present non-conceptually. This is what serious religious practice is about.

 

[ChristineM]

Scientific theories are not the same thing as the reality they are meant to represent. In fact all conceptual representations of reality, be they verbal, mathematical, symbolical, etc., are stuff generated by the human mind, the actual reality they are meant to represent is on the other side.

So you are twice removed from reality, first by relying on conceptual theories, ideas, etc, and secondly by your not even understanding the actual explanations and workings of the conceptual theories you believe in..

If you desire to apprehend reality directly, you must cease all thought processes that obscure the reality present non-conceptually. This is what serious religious practice is about.

But nonsense is the same thing as the religious bull you represent

And i object to your bastardization of the word reality.

Reality : noun : the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them

 

[Ben Dhyan]

But nonsense is the same thing as the religious bull you represent

And i object to your bastardization of the word reality.

Reality : noun : the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them

Unfortunately you are out of your league, it requires a certain level of mental development to understand the nuance in discussions like this, and you just do not understand what is being said to you. It is your inherent ignorance that is the basis of your misunderstanding, not your atheism or general beliefs.

See if you understand this, all mental representations, be they theories, ideas, models, etc., of reality are not the reality they are meant to represent, the reality itself is beyond all conception. If you do not understand this, it is not a problem if you say so, and I would be happy to respond to your objections, but be specific, logical, and rational.

 

[ChristineM]

Unfortunately you are out of your league, it requires a certain level of mental development to understand the nuance in discussions like this, and you just do not understand what is being said to you. It is your inherent ignorance that is the basis of your misunderstanding, not your atheism or general beliefs.

See if you understand this, all mental representations, be they theories, ideas, models, etc., of reality are not the reality they are meant to represent, the reality itself is beyond all conception. If you do not understand this, it is not a problem if you say so, and I would be happy to respond to your objections, but be specific, logical, and rational.

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Don't talk balls, you talk mumbo jumbo and bull and nonsence then gripe at your opponent because they won't understand your stupidity

I just provided the definition of reality, you can make up your own if is massages your over inflated ego but in the real world it counts for zilch.

 

[Aštra’el]

What arguments do you believe point to there being a God or gods and why do you think this makes more sense than the idea that there are no gods? I am personally a non-believer but I would greatly like to hear arguments against this position and possibly find a religion that at least makes sense.

I would like to hear actual arguments though. Lets keep off saying "ATheism is just dumb!" and the reverse. People come to their own beliefs for a large variety of reasons and you shouldn't just call them dumb for having said beliefs. Even if you think the beliefs themselves are pretty dumb.

Last thing, if you favor monotheism or polytheism or pantheism or non theism please be sure to include specifics of why you favor one version over another.

My spiritual-religious system involves gods that can be experienced by theists and atheists alike. There is no "faith" required, and no blind devotion to someone else's Weltanschauung.

The gods within my spiritual-religious system objectively exist- and in a way even an atheist can experience them- as artistic representations of various aspects of human Nature... like a song, or a painting, illustrating some epic archetype of the soul. A particular war goddess is experienced by allowing that artistic embodiment of that aspect of human Nature to inspire and motivate and fuel your desire to become better during athletic activity, physical training, and combat. A particular demon goddess is experienced by allowing that artistic embodiment of that aspect of human Nature to inspire and motivate and fuel your desire to engage in exciting, adventurous, dangerous, sexual and/ or taboo activities.

The theist. however, subjectively experiences these gods as much more than just mere artistic representations embodying certain aspects of human Nature. The theist sees life in these gods, constructs Thoughtforms for them using the imagination, allowing them to shapeshift into whatever form is most effective at fulfilling the purpose of the relationship... which is to strengthen each other, inspire and motivate and fuel the passion and desire and Will to walk through certain gates, make certain choices, take certain chances, and accompany each other on each other's odyssey for a mutual advantage.

Then there are some gods who are just so far beyond comprehension, so unfathomable, that instead of a Thoughtform, there is only a message... a message constructed from instinct, feeling, emotion, intuition... to the best of one's ability. Like a conscience, but perceived separately from your own, with its own Nature and Will. This method may also be utilized to reach the gods whom one may have designed Thoughtforms for, as it is an efficient and effective means of establishing a connection between Man and God(s).

I would attempt to make clear to anyone reading this that the things I mentioned above do not pertain to all polytheistic practices... only some practices within my own spiritual-religious system... and have nothing to do with "true or false", "right or wrong", or "real vs unreal"... which is how the atheist tends to approach religion. No, it has everything to do with how you choose to experience life, how you choose to explore human Nature, how you choose your inspiration and your motivation, what you allow to influence your goals and ambitions, and what you choose to embrace to complement and strengthen your Weltanshauung and True Will.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

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Don't talk balls, you talk mumbo jumbo and bull and nonsence then gripe at your opponent because they won't understand your stupidity

I just provided the definition of reality, you can make up your own if is massages your over inflated ego but in the real world it counts for zilch.

I take that as a no, a immature attempt to deflect, you did not understand. A definition of reality is a conceptual artifact of the mind, it is totally separate from the reality it stands for...

 

[ChristineM]

Ho

I take that as a no, a immature attempt to deflect, you did not understand. A definition of reality is a conceptual artifact of the mind, it is totally separate from the reality it stands for...

Take as as whatever massages your ego.

Honey, when you chose to redefine words to suit your sensibility's then you have lost it, just grow a set enough for you to take responsibility for your self.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Ho

Take as as whatever massages your ego.

Honey, when you chose to redefine words to suit your sensibility's then you have lost it, just grow a set enough for you to take responsibility for your self.

Sweetie, what words are you claiming I am redefining, and fyi my testicle status is classified and off topic?

 

[ChristineM]

Sweetie, what words are you claiming I am redefining, and fyi my testicle status is classified and off topic?

The word in question was / is "reality" however given your type of argument you could also add "truth" had you used it.

I was being polite regarding the topic, i really don't want any warning points

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The word in question was / is "reality" however given your type of argument you could also add "truth" had you used it.

I was being polite regarding the topic, i really don't want any warning points

'Reality' in the sense I am using it is all that is as it is without conceptual interpretation.

You were being polite....wow I'd hate to meet you if you had a dislike for me?

 

[ChristineM]

'Reality' in the sense I am using it is all that is as it is without conceptual interpretation.

You were being polite....wow I'd hate to meet you if you had a dislike for me?

In the sense you are using it you should not be bastardising a word, you should use words that actually mean what you are trying to say.

I'm sure you would.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

In the sense you are using it you should not be bastardising a word, you should use words that actually mean what you are trying to say.

I'm sure you would.

Is English your second language? What precisely do you find wrong with the meaning of the concept 'reality' in the context of universal reality that I have provided?

 

[ChristineM]

Is English your second language? What precisely do you find wrong with the meaning of the concept 'reality' in the context of universal reality that I have provided?

You ignorant moron. Is ad hominem all you have? How pathetic.

I speak 5 languages fluently, English is my first, a further 6 passably, and 3 more to restaurant standard. I do however have dyslexia which means i am word blind without prismatic and tinted spectacles. So how about you?

I find your bastardisation of the definition of the word "reality" to be abominable. Sounds very much like you are the one who has trouble with the English language

You have proved nothing, you have given your opinion and stomped your foot a lot

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You ignorant moron. Is ad hominem all you have? How pathetic.

I speak 5 languages fluently, English is my first, a further 6 passably, and 3 more to restaurant standard. I do however have dyslexia which means i am word blind without prismatic and tinted spectacles. So how about you?

I find your bastardisation of the definition of the word "reality" to be abominable. Sounds very much like you are the one who has trouble with the English language

You have proved nothing, you have given your opinion and stomped your foot a lot

I am sorry to hear you have dyslexia, and the inherent learning impairment associated. With sincere and due respect, that may very well be the reason you do not understand what I am saying to you. However if you are prepared to learn what it is I am explaining, I am more than happy to proceed in a logical and rational manner. So here we go...

To begin, what precisely is it that you do not understand about my definition of the word 'reality' in the stated context?

If this question is not clear to you for whatever reason, please say so and I will happy to rephrase it until such time as we understand each other.

 

[Sanmario]

@Lorgar-Aurelian



Dear Lorgar:

You see, no argument can get an atheist to assent to the conclusion in the argument that God exists, unless the atheist and his opponent theist first work together to concur, on what is the concept of God they are into proving or disproving to exist.

What is your comment to my statement above?

Let me illustrate: consider that two men are into a contest to reach the highest mountain in an island, don’t they have to first discuss as to come to agreement on which is the highest mountain in the island?

Now, I understand that you are a non-believer in God, but want to know the best argument that God exists.

So, tell me, what is your concept of God, and I will tell you what is my concept of God; when we have agreed on the concept of God, then I will prove to you that God exists corresponding to the concept we have agreed on; so you have to assent to my argument and in your mind now know that God exists, corresponding to the concept you and I have agreed on.

Tell me your comments on my proposal here.

What arguments do you believe point to there being a God or gods and why do you think this makes more sense than the idea that there are no gods? I am personally a non-believer but I would greatly like to hear arguments against this position and possibly find a religion that at least makes sense.

I would like to hear actual arguments though. Lets keep off saying "ATheism is just dumb!" and the reverse. People come to their own beliefs for a large variety of reasons and you shouldn't just call them dumb for having said beliefs. Even if you think the beliefs themselves are pretty dumb.

Last thing, if you favor monotheism or polytheism or pantheism or non theism please be sure to include specifics of why you favor one version over another.

 

[Sanmario]

I will be back tomorrow morning, dear readers here and posters, in particular our atheist colleagues: please, let us talk, give me your comments, okay?

 

[ChristineM]

I am sorry to hear you have dyslexia, and the inherent learning impairment associated. With sincere and due respect, that may very well be the reason you do not understand what I am saying to you. However if you are prepared to learn what it is I am explaining, I am more than happy to proceed in a logical and rational manner. So here we go...

To begin, what precisely is it that you do not understand about my definition of the word 'reality' in the stated context?

If this question is not clear to you for whatever reason, please say so and I will happy to rephrase it until such time as we understand each other.

That attitude is typical of religion, and the very reason i left the church. Dyslexia is not an impediment but a boon. Einstein was dyslexic, are you saying he was impaired? How about Galileo? George Washington, Leonardo da Vinci, Thomas Edison, Alexander Graham Bell? In my own case i have built a very successful international business from scratch and sold it in 2015 to a Japanise multinational giving me enough money to retire in comfort at age 46 and to provide for my childrens future whether they choose to work or not. Honey, i am dyslexic, not stupid.

Actually you keep saying i don't understand when in fact i understand well that you are talking nonsense and have no evidence to back up your nonsense to the extent that you need to redefine words to justify it to yourself.

It is not what i don't understand about you redefining words to justify nonsence, it is that you have to redefine words to justify your nonsence.

You may repeat it in any way you choose, or stomp your foot to your heart's content, it will make no difference .

 

[Sanmario]

@ChristineM


Glad to see you here, if I may, are you male or female, because by your name, ChristineM, it seems you are female, but your image avatar is a skull, and it is reminiscent of toughness supposedly typical of males.

I need to know your sex, I mean your anatomical and physiological sex, so that I can address you as a he or a she, okay?

Now, the last time we met, I was asking you for evidence because you say that I keep on moving the goalposts, and you left me at that point in time.

So, you say that is my [your] reason for leaving the church,

"That attitude is typical of religion, and the very reason i left the church. Dyslexia is not an impediment but a boon."​

But there is no need to leave the church, just stop attending church activities or religious activities in your religion or faith, and also don't think anymore about living your religion, live as though you never knew anything about any religion or church or were into any kind of religiosity.

So, what is the big deal with you leaving the church or your church?

That is what I like to know with atheists all the time, they seem to make a big deal of getting to be an atheist, but when I want to talk with them about God exists or not, they eventually leave me because they with one atheist, he says that I can's write coherent sentences, with another one, he says that I can't read.

So, dear ChristineM, here is my argument for God existing:

1. God in concept is the creator of everything with a beginning.
2. With that concept of God atheists and I can look for everything in existence that has a beginning.
3. There, that is evidence of God in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.
4. Therefore God exists in concept as creator of everything with a beginning, because we live in an environment where everything has a beginning, like for example, babies at home and roses in the garden and the sun in the day sky and the moon in the evening sky.​

So, dear atheists, starting with ChristineM and the author of this thread, what are your comments to my proof for the existence of God, in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning?

ChristineM will say that I am moving goalposts.
Another atheist will say that I can't write coherent sentences.
And still another atheist will say that I can't read.

And atheists generally will throw a stink bomb and declare they are getting out from talking with me, even though they started talking with me, warning me that things would get rough for me.

Dear author of this thread, what do you say about my proof for God existing?

Dear readers here, see if they don't throw a stink bomb and declare an exit from my presence.

Tell you what, dear author of this thread, you want a best argument for God existing; I tell you, first you and your opponent must work to concur on the concept of God, otherwise both of you are shadow boxing, and that is all inanity and vacuity, at least from my observation, with atheists.

It is atheists who are always evading the issue of God exists or not: because atheists already with their self description are from the start into evading the issue, what with always saying that they don't believe in any God, gods, goddesses, deities, divinities, etc., or that they just disbelieve in one more god than theists: WHEN if they be relevant they should take up the most ambitious God, He who creates and operates everything with a beginning.

That attitude is typical of religion, and the very reason i left the church. Dyslexia is not an impediment but a boon. Einstein was dyslexic, are you saying he was impaired? How about Galileo? George Washington, Leonardo da Vinci, Thomas Edison, Alexander Graham Bell? In my own case i have built a very successful international business from scratch and sold it in 2015 to a Japanise multinational giving me enough money to retire in comfort at age 46 and to provide for my childrens future whether they choose to work or not. Honey, i am dyslexic, not stupid.

Actually you keep saying i don't understand when in fact i understand well that you are talking nonsense and have no evidence to back up your nonsense to the extent that you need to redefine words to justify it to yourself.

It is not what i don't understand about you redefining words to justify nonsence, it is that you have to redefine words to justify your nonsence.

You may repeat it in any way you choose, or stomp your foot to your heart's content, it will make no difference .

 

[ChristineM]

@ChristineM


Glad to see you here, if I may, are you male or female, because by your name, ChristineM, it seems you are female, but your image avatar is a skull, and it is reminiscent of toughness supposedly typical of males.

I need to know your sex, I mean your anatomical and physiological sex, so that I can address you as a he or a she, okay?

Now, the last time we met, I was asking you for evidence because you say that I keep on moving the goalposts, and you left me at that point in time.

So, you say that is my [your] reason for leaving the church,

"That attitude is typical of religion, and the very reason i left the church. Dyslexia is not an impediment but a boon."​

But there is no need to leave the church, just stop attending church activities or religious activities in your religion or faith, and also don't think anymore about living your religion, live as though you never knew anything about any religion or church or were into any kind of religiosity.

So, what is the big deal with you leaving the church or your church?

That is what I like to know with atheists all the time, they seem to make a big deal of getting to be an atheist, but when I want to talk with them about God exists or not, they eventually leave me because they with one atheist, he says that I can's write coherent sentences, with another one, he says that I can't read.

So, dear ChristineM, here is my argument for God existing:

1. God in concept is the creator of everything with a beginning.
2. With that concept of God atheists and I can look for everything in existence that has a beginning.
3. There, that is evidence of God in concept as creator of everything with a beginning.
4. Therefore God exists in concept as creator of everything with a beginning, because we live in an environment where everything has a beginning, like for example, babies at home and roses in the garden and the sun in the day sky and the moon in the evening sky.​

So, dear atheists, starting with ChristineM and the author of this thread, what are your comments to my proof for the existence of God, in concept as the creator of everything with a beginning?

ChristineM will say that I am moving goalposts.
Another atheist will say that I can't write coherent sentences.
And still another atheist will say that I can't read.

And atheists generally will throw a stink bomb and declare they are getting out from talking with me, even though they started talking with me, warning me that things would get rough for me.

Dear author of this thread, what do you say about my proof for God existing?

Dear readers here, see if they don't throw a stink bomb and declare an exit from my presence.

Tell you what, dear author of this thread, you want a best argument for God existing; I tell you, first you and your opponent must work to concur on the concept of God, otherwise both of you are shadow boxing, and that is all inanity and vacuity, at least from my observation, with atheists.

It is atheists who are always evading the issue of God exists or not: because atheists already with their self description are from the start into evading the issue, what with always saying that they don't believe in any God, gods, goddesses, deities, divinities, etc., or that they just disbelieve in one more god than theists: WHEN if they be relevant they should take up the most ambitious God, He who creates and operates everything with a beginning.

The scull is late cro magnon which i was fortunate enough to have been on the dig when is was discovered. It is meaningful to me and provides evidence of evolution and transition.

I left the church because Christians consistently verbally abused me then. It was actually a spur to study what made Christianity so sick to mock a disabled child as stupid. And i found the answers in the bible, its how they are taught from the beginning. So please dont tell me i should not have left the church when you know nothing of the circumstances.

As to talking god, i did, you moved the goalposts, nor my problem if you refused to abide by your own words

 

[Ben Dhyan]

That attitude is typical of religion, and the very reason i left the church. Dyslexia is not an impediment but a boon. Einstein was dyslexic, are you saying he was impaired? How about Galileo? George Washington, Leonardo da Vinci, Thomas Edison, Alexander Graham Bell? In my own case i have built a very successful international business from scratch and sold it in 2015 to a Japanise multinational giving me enough money to retire in comfort at age 46 and to provide for my childrens future whether they choose to work or not. Honey, i am dyslexic, not stupid.

Actually you keep saying i don't understand when in fact i understand well that you are talking nonsense and have no evidence to back up your nonsense to the extent that you need to redefine words to justify it to yourself.

It is not what i don't understand about you redefining words to justify nonsence, it is that you have to redefine words to justify your nonsence.

You may repeat it in any way you choose, or stomp your foot to your heart's content, it will make no difference .

It has nothing to do with religion wrt my mentioning about reading problems that go with dyslexia, it is what research has determined...."Dyslexia, also known as reading disorder, is characterized by trouble with reading despite normal intelligence." Dyslexia - Wikipedia

I am happy that you were successful in business, I hope you find that peace that passes understanding in your retirement.

The thing is love, I am trying to understand what it is that you find wrong about my understanding of reality. Merely saying I have redefined it does not cut it, so you will need to point out precisely what your reference is that causes you to think my understanding is in error. So please, I am not being purposely obtuse, please provide a response that is germane to the question of understanding ultimate reality?