What are the best arguments in favor of theism and against atheism?

[ChristineM]

It has nothing to do with religion wrt my mentioning about reading problems that go with dyslexia, it is what research has determined...."Dyslexia, also known as reading disorder, is characterized by trouble with reading despite normal intelligence." Dyslexia - Wikipedia

I am happy that you were successful in business, I hope you find that peace that passes understanding in your retirement.

The thing is love, I am trying to understand what it is that you find wrong about my understanding of reality. Merely saying I have redefined it does not cut it, so you will need to point out precisely what your reference is that causes you to think my understanding is in error. So please, I am not being purposely obtuse, please provide a response that is germane to the question of understanding ultimate reality?

Yes it it a reading disorder brought about by word blindness, not stupidity. But i am glad you are able to learn

I have explained why i redefining a word to suit your sensibility's and i have provided the real (no pun) definition. If you don't understand why making stuff up and calling it by already defined word is nor wrong and can cause confusion hen there is no point continuing.

Here let me repeat

reality
noun : the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.

There are other related meanings, none allow notional or idealistic ideas to be termed reality.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yes it it a reading disorder brought about by word blindness, not stupidity. But i am glad you are able to learn

I have explained why i redefining a word to suit your sensibility's and i have provided the real (no pun) definition. If you don't understand why making stuff up and calling it by already defined word is nor wrong and can cause confusion hen there is no point continuing.

Here let me repeat

reality
noun : the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.

There are other related meanings, none allow notional or idealistic ideas to be termed reality.

I never said that people with reading disorders are stupid, but I might add that having a reading disorder, or not having a reading disorder, does not preclude stupidity.

So let us agree that the definition of reality you provided is sufficient for the purposes, ie. "the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them." That means your conceptual idea of reality is not actual 'reality' as defined. That is what I have been saying to you, and why in some religious traditions, the ceasing of the mind's conceptual processes is a prerequisite to realizing 'reality', When the mind is still and free from thought, there are no neuron firing thought processes to obscure the actual reality which is present.

Now if you are not familiar with the idea of non-conceptual reality, you will perhaps not initially understand what is being said to you, for the reality of it is beyond thought. One must practice stilling the mind to realize it.

 

[ChristineM]

I never said that people with reading disorders are stupid, but I might add that having a reading disorder, or not having a reading disorder, does not preclude stupidity.

So let us agree that the definition of reality you provided is sufficient for the purposes, ie. "the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them." That means your conceptual idea of reality is not actual 'reality' as defined. That is what I have been saying to you, and why in some religious traditions, the ceasing of the mind's conceptual processes is a prerequisite to realizing 'reality', When the mind is still and free from thought, there are no neuron firing thought processes to obscure the actual reality which is present.

Now if you are not familiar with the idea of non-conceptual reality, you will perhaps not initially understand what is being said to you, for the reality of it is beyond thought. One must practice stilling the mind to realize it.

Correct you never said "stupid" you implied it... I quote

"I am sorry to hear you have dyslexia, and the inherent learning impairment associated. With sincere and due respect, that may very well be the reason you do not understand what I am saying to you."


Sorry, what conceptual idea. Are you making stuff up and imposing it on me? My understanding of reality is the definition of reality.

How many times? The ideas of the mind are ideas, concepts, notional, idealistic, the definition of reality precludes them from reality.

Note the wording "actually exist" not "think exists" not ,"believe exist", not "have faith it exists" but "actually exists".

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Correct you never said "stupid" you implied it... I quote

"I am sorry to hear you have dyslexia, and the inherent learning impairment associated. With sincere and due respect, that may very well be the reason you do not understand what I am saying to you."


Sorry, what conceptual idea. Are you making stuff up and imposing it on me? My understanding of reality is the definition of reality.

How many times? The ideas of the mind are ideas, concepts, notional, idealistic, the definition of reality precludes them from reality.

Note the wording "actually exist" not "think exists" not ,"believe exist", not "have faith it exists" but "actually exists".

Not understanding a profound understanding is not the same as stupidity, it merely means there is some prerequisite understanding not yet present required to understand it. Understanding not understanding is just as important as understanding understanding.

Now let's continue, the ideas of the mind do not preclude them from reality, they are an indivisible aspect of it, but these ideas representing reality are merely an interpretation of it, and are not to be mistaken for the real.

So here is the rub, behold the universe, it exists and is real....can the reality represented by the idea 'universe' be realized directly, ie. not indirectly through some mental process?

 

[Sanmario]

@ChristineM



If I may, dear ChristineM, what goalpost did I move, from which to which?


I did not tell you to not leave the church, I just suggest that no need to leave the church as though you are making a solemn act of leaving, just take on the nonchalance of no longer giving it any importance in your life for the rest of your remaining years.

Church and God are not necessarily connected if you have the moral i.e. affective resources i.e. psychological resources to not be bothered by church teachings on everything that has to do with life and death and burial and what is the lot of the dead.

Of course as we are living in a Christian realm or civilization, whether you deny it or not, it cannot be that we are like it or not under some kind of influence even duress to behave, as to not attract unwanted notice from the rest of peoples who are also affected by the prevailing Christian civilization.


Back to goalposts, which goalpost have I moved from and to which another one?


I feel most honestly for your dyslexia, that is what? difficulty with reading: dys=not, lexia=reading? Wait, I will look up that term in the internet information websites.

Here, from google, dyslexia - Google Search:

dys·lex·i·a
dəsˈleksēə/
noun
noun: dyslexia

1. a general term for disorders that involve difficulty in learning to read or interpret words, letters, and other symbols, but that do not affect general intelligence.

If you had not mentioned that you have dyslexia I would not have seen any sign whatsoever that you suffer from dyslexia; I know a guy who suffers from dyslexia but operates a website, and he already tells readers with an inscription at the top of his website that he suffers from dyslexia; you know, I don't think I can do what he is doing, operating a website, even when I am without the compromising health condition of dyslexia.


Anyway, dear ChristineM, make an effort to find out what goalpost I have moved from and to where, please? So that I would correct myself.


Before I forget, am I correct in thinking that you are a she?

The scull is late cro magnon which i was fortunate enough to have been on the dig when is was discovered. It is meaningful to me and provides evidence of evolution and transition.

I left the church because Christians consistently verbally abused me then. It was actually a spur to study what made Christianity so sick to mock a disabled child as stupid. And i found the answers in the bible, its how they are taught from the beginning. So please dont tell me i should not have left the church when you know nothing of the circumstances.

As to talking god, i did, you moved the goalposts, nor my problem if you refused to abide by your own words

 

[Sanmario]

@ChristineM
@ben d



In re definition of reality.

To use concise and precise but simple words, here is my understanding of reality:

Reality is what exists outside of our mind and independent of our mind, in the objective realm of existence, but we need our mind to know about it and that it exists outside of our mind: for examples of reality are the moon in the evening sky, the sun in the morning sky, babies at home, roses in the garden, etc., you get the idea?

Reality is made up of objects outside and independent of our mind.

The opposites of objects are concepts in our mind.

Thus, I divide all the world into the objectival realm which is in the setting of reality outside and independent of our mind, but we need our mind to know about things existing in the objectival realm.

Aside from the objectival realm, there is the conceptival realm, I call it conceptival realm because it is the storage of concepts.

Dear ChristineM and Ben d, I have a thread on the following topic:

The object and concept of God and the existence of God; see, The object and concept of God and the existence of God..

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Reality as in universal existence is omnipresent, there is no outside or inside, these are concepts of the human mind, which as you say, are essential for the mind to use for survival in the physical world. God is a concept to represent universal existence as is Brahman, Tao, etc.. according to the particular religion or culture where the name originated. I don't mind atheists using the term 'Universe', 'Cosmos', Absolute reality, etc., to represent the one existence, but it's funny they hate it when other names, particular the name God to represent the one and same reality are used.

 

[ChristineM]

Not understanding a profound understanding is not the same as stupidity, it merely means there is some prerequisite understanding not yet present required to understand it. Understanding not understanding is just as important as understanding understanding.

Now let's continue, the ideas of the mind do not preclude them from reality, they are an indivisible aspect of it, but these ideas representing reality are merely an interpretation of it, and are not to be mistaken for the real.

So here is the rub, behold the universe, it exists and is real....can the reality represented by the idea 'universe' be realized directly, ie. not indirectly through some mental process?

? Sounds like not is maybe sometimes gobbledygook to me

Ideas of the mind are ideas, may even be faith. But unless they can be shown to be real then they remain of the mind

The thing about reality, the fundimental prerequisite is that the thing in question must be real. Hence the name

 

[ChristineM]

@ChristineM



If I may, dear ChristineM, what goalpost did I move, from which to which?


I did not tell you to not leave the church, I just suggest that no need to leave the church as though you are making a solemn act of leaving, just take on the nonchalance of no longer giving it any importance in your life for the rest of your remaining years.

Church and God are not necessarily connected if you have the moral i.e. affective resources i.e. psychological resources to not be bothered by church teachings on everything that has to do with life and death and burial and what is the lot of the dead.

Of course as we are living in a Christian realm or civilization, whether you deny it or not, it cannot be that we are like it or not under some kind of influence even duress to behave, as to not attract unwanted notice from the rest of peoples who are also affected by the prevailing Christian civilization.


Back to goalposts, which goalpost have I moved from and to which another one?


I feel most honestly for your dyslexia, that is what? difficulty with reading: dys=not, lexia=reading? Wait, I will look up that term in the internet information websites.

Here, from google, dyslexia - Google Search:

dys·lex·i·a
dəsˈleksēə/
noun
noun: dyslexia

1. a general term for disorders that involve difficulty in learning to read or interpret words, letters, and other symbols, but that do not affect general intelligence.

If you had not mentioned that you have dyslexia I would not have seen any sign whatsoever that you suffer from dyslexia; I know a guy who suffers from dyslexia but operates a website, and he already tells readers with an inscription at the top of his website that he suffers from dyslexia; you know, I don't think I can do what he is doing, operating a website, even when I am without the compromising health condition of dyslexia.


Anyway, dear ChristineM, make an effort to find out what goalpost I have moved from and to where, please? So that I would correct myself.


Before I forget, am I correct in thinking that you are a she?

I have explained how you have moved the goalposts. Repeatedly asking will only get you the same answer

 

[Ben Dhyan]

? Sounds like not is maybe sometimes gobbledygook to me

Ideas of the mind are ideas, may even be faith. But unless they can be shown to be real then they remain of the mind

The thing about reality, the fundimental prerequisite is that the thing in question must be real. Hence the name

Finally you get it, the reason it is like gobbledygook to you is that you do not understand what is being said to you wrt non-conceptual reality. Non-conceptual reality is reality as it is, not reality that can be spoken or thought about.

But universal existence is real, or do you not have the prerequisite understanding to accept its reality? If you accept it as real, then you have the same position as myself. If i am talking to atheists on these matters, I am happy to use the word universe or cosmos to represent this one existence, but if talking to religious folk, I am happy to use the word God, Brahman, Tao, etc., to represent this same one existence.....a rose by any other name smells as sweet...

 

[ChristineM]

Finally you get it, the reason it is like gobbledygook to you is that you do not understand what is being said to you wrt non-conceptual reality. Non-conceptual reality is reality as it is, not reality that can be spoken or thought about.

But universal existence is real, or do you not have the prerequisite understanding to accept its reality? If you accept it as real, then you have the same position as myself. If i am talking to atheists on these matters, I am happy to use the word universe or cosmos to represent this one existence, but if talking to religious folk, I am happy to use the word God, Brahman, Tao, etc., to represent this same one existence.....a rose by any other name smells as sweet...

Don't talk complete nonsense. You posted "Not understanding a profound understanding is not the same as stupidity, it merely means there is some prerequisite understanding not yet present required to understand it. Understanding not understanding is just as important as understanding understanding." Which is gobbledygook

As for your not real - real, get real. The definition is explicit. If you make up a story about a god or you hear and like that story and claim it as real then that is not universal anything, it is a story.

 

[ChristineM]

@ChristineM
@ben d



In re definition of reality.

To use concise and precise but simple words, here is my understanding of reality:

Reality is what exists outside of our mind and independent of our mind, in the objective realm of existence, but we need our mind to know about it and that it exists outside of our mind: for examples of reality are the moon in the evening sky, the sun in the morning sky, babies at home, roses in the garden, etc., you get the idea?

Reality is made up of objects outside and independent of our mind.

The opposites of objects are concepts in our mind.

Thus, I divide all the world into the objectival realm which is in the setting of reality outside and independent of our mind, but we need our mind to know about things existing in the objectival realm.

Aside from the objectival realm, there is the conceptival realm, I call it conceptival realm because it is the storage of concepts.

Dear ChristineM and Ben d, I have a thread on the following topic:

The object and concept of God and the existence of God; see, The object and concept of God and the existence of God..

You may preach on all you want, it makes little difference to the definition of reality:-

the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.

 

[ChristineM]

@ChristineM
@ben d



In re definition of reality.

To use concise and precise but simple words, here is my understanding of reality:

Reality is what exists outside of our mind and independent of our mind, in the objective realm of existence, but we need our mind to know about it and that it exists outside of our mind: for examples of reality are the moon in the evening sky, the sun in the morning sky, babies at home, roses in the garden, etc., you get the idea?

Reality is made up of objects outside and independent of our mind.

The opposites of objects are concepts in our mind.

Thus, I divide all the world into the objectival realm which is in the setting of reality outside and independent of our mind, but we need our mind to know about things existing in the objectival realm.

Aside from the objectival realm, there is the conceptival realm, I call it conceptival realm because it is the storage of concepts.

Dear ChristineM and Ben d, I have a thread on the following topic:

The object and concept of God and the existence of God; see, The object and concept of God and the existence of God..

Also

No point in having a thread if you are only preaching your own view and not even considering the view of others.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Don't talk complete nonsense. You posted "Not understanding a profound understanding is not the same as stupidity, it merely means there is some prerequisite understanding not yet present required to understand it. Understanding not understanding is just as important as understanding understanding." Which is gobbledygook

As for your not real - real, get real. The definition is explicit. If you make up a story about a god or you hear and like that story and claim it as real then that is not universal anything, it is a story.

Haha.....because Christine does not understand what is said to her, it can't be her fault, it's the messenger....shoot the messenger!

Love, the definition can tell you nothing about universal reality, it can only tell you what it is not, it is not conceptual, it is not a mental construct, it is not a thought, it is not an idea. The real of forever on the other side of the concept of real, if you want to realize it, cease conceptualizing about it!

 

[ChristineM]

Haha.....because Christine does not understand what is said to her, it can't be her fault, it's the messenger....shoot the messenger!

Love, the definition can tell you nothing about universal reality, it can only tell you what it is not, it is not conceptual, it is not a mental construct, it is not a thought, it is not an idea. The real of forever on the other side of the concept of real, if you want to realize it, cease conceptualizing about it!

Oh i understand very well that you bastardise words to justify your faith, "universal reality" is a term meaning illusion, there is no definition but there are several published works explaining the concept of the term. In the same way "truthiness" has nothing to do with truth but with what sounds like it should be true to a specific mindset, universal reality is not reality.

As for shooting the messenger, if you make your belief public on a forum then get upset because someone queries it with real facts and real truth (reality) then what is your point of being on a forum?

Finally, please don't patronise me with "love" it seems admin don't like words that can be deliberately misunderstood. I have recently been censored and castigated for calling someone "honey", i would not like the same to occur to you with a word that can be misinterpreted as misogynistic

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Oh i understand very well that you bastardise words to justify your faith, "universal reality" is a term meaning illusion, there is no definition but there are several published works explaining the concept of the term. In the same way "truthiness" has nothing to do with truth but with what sounds like it should be true to a specific mindset, universal reality is not reality.

As for shooting the messenger, if you make your belief public on a forum then get upset because someone queries it with real facts and real truth (reality) then what is your point of being on a forum?

Finally, please don't patronise me with "love" it seems admin don't like words that can be deliberately misunderstood. I have recently been censored and castigated for calling someone "honey", i would not like the same to occur to you with a word that can be misinterpreted as misogynistic

Firstly, I am sorry you were admonished for calling someone 'honey', and thanks for the heads up. Actually you called me honey in one of your posts but I took it as a positive among your otherwise less positive adjectives about me, so I thought I'd try a term implying familiarity back at you, sorry it didn't work in a reciprocal manner...

I'm not upset with you Christine, I've been posting here for 10 years and have seen many a poster come and go. I have no religious agenda that I would want to impose on others, but I do religious meditation, and I am always happy to engage anyone who responds to my posts on any forum, and I try and treat people with respect, but some people can be difficult.

Hmmm, so you think the term 'universal reality' is bastardized? I am bewildered anyone would not understand what it was meant to represent....the reality of the universe. Are you saying to me that the universe is not real, or that the universe is real but universal reality is not real, or that universal reality is not a acceptable term to use to represent the reality of the universe?

 

[ChristineM]

Firstly, I am sorry you were admonished for calling someone 'honey', and thanks for the heads up. Actually you called me honey in one of your posts but I took it as a positive among your otherwise less positive adjectives about me, so I thought I'd try a term implying familiarity back at you, sorry it didn't work in a reciprocal manner...

I'm not upset with you Christine, I've been posting here for 10 years and have seen many a poster come and go. I have no religious agenda that I would want to impose on others, but I do religious meditation, and I am always happy to engage anyone who responds to my posts on any forum, and I try and treat people with respect, but some people can be difficult.

Hmmm, so you think the term 'universal reality' is bastardized? I am bewildered anyone would not understand what it was meant to represent....the reality of the universe. Are you saying to me that the universe is not real, or that the universe is real but universal reality is not real, or that universal reality is not a acceptable term to use to represent the reality of the universe?

Yes i called you honey, from where i come from (Lancashire UK) it is a term of endearment. Obviously someone thinks differently. And i have no objection to love but it's best to steer clear of disagreement with admin, after all they have the final word (usually)

Yes I'm new here but have been a regular are for the most part, respected user on topix. They have however done a trump and barred none North American continent users, their loss, the forum is now quite boring. This will never be much better, admin have too much of a say in what is posted for it to be truly free. And now perhaps i will be warned for being critical of them.

How many times? I know exactly what it means as i have been trying to explain for a week. First it is not universal, it is only a small subset of a subset of humanity that even considers it and secondly it is not reality as i have repeatedly shown you.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yes i called you honey, from where i come from (Lancashire UK) it is a term of endearment. Obviously someone thinks differently. And i have no objection to love but it's best to steer clear of disagreement with admin, after all they have the final word (usually)

Yes I'm new here but have been a regular are for the most part, respected user on topix. They have however done a trump and barred none North American continent users, their loss, the forum is now quite boring. This will never be much better, admin have too much of a say in what is posted for it to be truly free. And now perhaps i will be warned for being critical of them.

How many times? I know exactly what it means as i have been trying to explain for a week. First it is not universal, it is only a small subset of a subset of humanity that even considers it and secondly it is not reality as i have repeatedly shown you.

I concur, no more honey honey..err..I mean Christine.

I don't understand why you think that reality does not apply to the universe as a whole? I think we agree on the meaning of the word 'reality', it is that state of being beyond the mental constructs used to describe it, but in an discussion about it, it is ok to use the term as an expedient for conveying understanding.

 

[ChristineM]

I concur, no more honey honey..err..I mean Christine.

I don't understand why you think that reality does not apply to the universe as a whole? I think we agree on the meaning of the word 'reality', it is that state of being beyond the mental constructs used to describe it, but in an discussion about it, it is ok to use the term as an expedient for conveying understanding.

You are misquoting me, i never said any such thing, my objection is to your use of the term universal reality to describe a faith which is neither universal nor real in the true definition meaning.

Also i have provided, on more than occasion, the definition of reality, if you agree with that definition then no problem. You however seem to interpret it differently.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You are misquoting me, i never said any such thing, my objection is to your use of the term universal reality to describe a faith which is neither universal nor real in the true definition meaning.

Also i have provided, on more than occasion, the definition of reality, if you agree with that definition then no problem. You however seem to interpret it differently.

Now I have not used the term universal reality to describe a faith, but merely state reality, pantheism defines God as the oneness that is all, iow, the universe is God manifested.