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What are the mistakes Muslims do when informing others about Islam?

Shia Islam

Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
Premium Member
I do not recognise two sects. I recognise the mainstream (ie. about 90% of Muslims) which is what the word sunni is actually a short form for (ahl as-sunnah wal-jamah = people of the mainstream way of the prophet) and then the Shi'a, a word which actually means partisans or sectarians. Then some insignificant little groups who don't even have enough numbers that they're worth mentioning. Unlike Christianity, Islam is fairly orthodox.

I this how Islam taught you to handle the differences with other Muslims?!
Why to give wrong figures and wrong information.

My advice to anyone who wants to study Islam is to:

study both the Sunni Islam from the Sunni Sources, and the Shia Islam from the Shia Sources…

And compare the evidences provided by each to know what the numbers mean…

Anyone who believes in God should also believe that God will not hide his religion from any honest seeker.
 
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YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
My advice to anyone who wants to study Islam is to:

study both the Sunni Islam from the Sunni Sources, and the Shia Islam from the Shia Sources…
Indeed. Many forget that the usual line of "thought" we hear is the Sunni version, as if any other viewpoint is of no significance.
 

Abu Rashid

Active Member
Shia said:
I this how Islam taught you to handle the differences with other Muslims?!
Why to give wrong figures and wrong information.

This is just simple fact. You cannot deny that your very name "shia" means sectarians/partisans (ie. those who broke away from the main ummah and became a sect), whilst the name of the mainstream Muslims means people of the mainstream path of the Prophet (pbuh).

Shia said:
My advice to anyone who wants to study Islam is to:

study both the Sunni Islam from the Sunni Sources, and the Shia Islam from the Shia Sources…

This is indeed sound advice. And the fact is most who do, do not follow your sectarianism. Most of those like myself who embrace Islam, and who investigate the Shia reject it as sectarian and divisive and misguided by tribalistic sanctification of a certain clan of Quraysh.

Shia said:
And compare the evidences provided the correspondent sub-religion to know what the numbers mean…

I follow a religion, not a sub-religion. I follow the trunk, and you are attempting to misguide to a branch, away from as-siraat al-mustaqeem.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
This is just simple fact. You cannot deny that your very name "shia" means sectarians/partisans (ie. those who broke away from the main ummah and became a sect), whilst the name of the mainstream Muslims means people of the mainstream path of the Prophet (pbuh).



This is indeed sound advice. And the fact is most who do, do not follow your sectarianism. Most of those like myself who embrace Islam, and who investigate the Shia reject it as sectarian and divisive and misguided by tribalistic sanctification of a certain clan of Quraysh.



I follow a religion, not a sub-religion. I follow the trunk, and you are attempting to misguide to a branch, away from as-siraat al-mustaqeem.
I am not sure what it is, but there is something here that is disturbing about the attitude towards Shia...
 

Abu Rashid

Active Member
YmirGF said:
Indeed. Many forget that the usual line of "thought" we hear is the Sunni version, as if any other viewpoint is of no significance.

Generally speaking, it is of no significance.

The Shi'a are a fairly small minority. They are smaller than Orthodox Christianity, which is by no means what anyone would consider a very relevant sect.

How many people take into consideration Orthodox Christianity when they speak about Christianity as a whole? Very few.

Besides, as is obvious in this thread already many obviously do think Iran's way is the mainstream Islamic way, due to the propaganda in the media that Iran supposedly represents Islam.
 
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301ouncer

Well-Known Member
" If free nucleotides are combined in solution, they do not react at all. Therefore, many scientists have been searching for what types of activating groups and inorganic catalysts must have been involved in the polymer bonding process. Dr. Ferris, of Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in Troy, New York, has discovered one inorganic material which facilitates this reaction: montmorillonite clay. The particular structure of this clay serves to provide a medium in which the individual activated RNA units combine to form larger chains.5 "

Segment 2 - Clay and the Origins of Life

well done my beloved brother. I did not come across this before and you have answered it here with evidence and answered from the same OP in my thread which he tried to derail by posing this same question.

Heheehe. Cross posting and thread hoping reminds me of grass hoppers and the menace they cause to farm crops. :D
 

Abu Rashid

Active Member
Autodidactic said:
So your claim is that the people of Iran never had an Islamic revolution, and did not try to govern their country according to Islamic law?

That's right.

Autodidact said:
What do you mean here by "Islam," do you mean the qur'an? So are the people of Iran Muslims?

I can't believe you're still attempting to peddle this nonsense. I've already exposed your shallow argument that if the government of a country implements or doesn't implement something that therefore determines the status of the people within the country and their belief.

If you are an autodidact, you didn't do a very good job :)

Autodidact said:
In any case, as I say, the problem is not True Islam, since apparently it does not exist.

The concept exists, the implementation does not.

I'll give you half a point for that one.

Autodidact said:
So we can change shariah law at any time

That wasn't your original claim. The point is Shari'ah can address new issues as they arise, through the processes of ijtihad and qiyas. Not that it will just accept any deviancy you begin practicing and claim is your right.

For instance, the Islamic texts never specifically mentioned drugs like opium or cocaine, yet the Shari'ah was still able to address them when the situation surfaced. Since they are intoxicants and alcohol is forbidden due to it's intoxicating properties, they take the same ruling.
 

Commoner

Headache
" If free nucleotides are combined in solution, they do not react at all. Therefore, many scientists have been searching for what types of activating groups and inorganic catalysts must have been involved in the polymer bonding process. Dr. Ferris, of Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in Troy, New York, has discovered one inorganic material which facilitates this reaction: montmorillonite clay. The particular structure of this clay serves to provide a medium in which the individual activated RNA units combine to form larger chains.5 "

Segment 2 - Clay and the Origins of Life

Yes, I know what the source you cited was, but I was wondering which part you've (mis)interperted as "no clay = no life"?

You do know that that's only one of the hypothesized models of abiogenesis among many, many others? Have a look for yourself - you'll see what I mean...

Abiogenesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And if you read a bit about it, you'll see that it does not look particularly promising at the moment...
 
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Rookie

A Muslim
The face of Islam in the west is dominated by extremists. Terrorism, violence, jihad. I mean no disrespect here, but in the minds of many westerners Islam and terrorism are essentially the same thing.

Do you believe the same?

IF 9/11 did not occur,I think we muslims wouldnt be portrayed like that.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
301ouncer said:
well done my beloved brother. I did not come across this before and you have answered it here with evidence and answered from the same OP in my thread which he tried to derail by posing this same question.

Are you that ignorant, 301?

neves only QUOTED from a source that prove nothing about man being created out of clay.

Let me put it in very layman's term that you should understand.

Clay, by itself, is inorganic material, and the most common type of clay is silicates (clay molecules, SiO4). There are organic by-products, such as dead animals or leaves that have wasted away or dropping (or manure) that may mix with clay, but the clay itself is still inorganic product. It is these organic material (not clay) that provide provide nutrient to plants, not the silicate materials.

The short of it, is that clay doesn't give life at all, but the organic by-products (decomposition of dead animals or plants or manures/droppings). Clay itself doesn't have proteins or enzymes. And if you look at the chemical properties or molecular structure of proteins, you will see that it contain no silicon (which is used to form the silicate mineral), nor aluminum, which is used to form AlO4 tetrahedra, another common clay molecules.

Do you get that?

Now if we were to believe the mythological nonsense that all Abrahamic religions have sprouted about man being made of clay, then read this.

If you truly believe that earth and life was created in 7 days, like it say in the Genesis 1, then
vegetation was created until the 3rd day. Birds and marine animals weren't created until the 5th day. Animals on land weren't created until the 6th day, the same day as animals. And I do recall someone (Muslims, but don't remember who) quoting from the that the planet and life on earth were created in those 7 days (don't remember which thread).

If this is true, then it is not possible for organic materials to exist on the clay earth, because there are no death of animals or vegetation that would have decomposed enough to mix with clay, unless you in less than 3 days, the animals had produced enough manure to produce organic compound in the clay soil.
 
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Shia Islam

Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
Premium Member
This is not to reply to Abu Rashid sectarian replies...It's just to mention that I used the wrong word sub-religion...So I replaced it..

What I meant was clear however some intentionally to twist the meaning...
 
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GabrielWithoutWings

Well-Known Member
[quoteYmirGF]The Shi'a are a fairly small minority. They are smaller than Orthodox Christianity, which is by no means what anyone would consider a very relevant sect.

How many people take into consideration Orthodox Christianity when they speak about Christianity as a whole? Very few.

Few people in the West. In the East, it's very relevant.
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why would a God want me to believe something, for which there is no evidence? What is the added value of that kind of belief? Wouldn't you say we generally want to avoid believing in things for which there is no evidence, or against which there is evidence.

This is a subject, that i discussed in another thread. The added value, is faith. In other words, it shows faith and trust, for you to believe someone or believe in him, despite having no evidence for doing so.

Well, all of these things are true of many great works of literature. I just don't see how you are able to draw the line between the "earthly" and the divine authorship. If it's how it makes you feel, I don't find that a particularly compelling reason - we're demonstrably bad at judging the true nature of things, when we do it based on our "gut feeling".

Yes, very true. My feelings towards it on it's own is not enough. But when you add the other reasons to it, it is enough for me to believe in it as such. Not having contradictions counts, and then the fact that i find the rules in it, to be completely fair is also another plus. So, all of them together, with putting in mind that this explanation to life and purpose i'm given through the Quran i find very reasonable and makes things so much more obvious and understandable. So, all of these things, which doesn't occur in any other things i've read, makes me view it that way.

And if I tell you the Qur'an had no such effect on me, what will you say to me? Was the translation poor? The Qur'an to me is as I imagine the Bible is to you. You have more than a billion people claiming that it is the word of God, that it has been inspired by God and has inspired them, once they've read it, they have no doubt of its origins.
They describe the same kind of process you've described - yet, clearly - to both of us - they have made a great error in judgment. So, it's not just that they have misunderstood the Qur'an, it's much more than that - they've found another divinely inspired book and they're sure of it. What do you make of this? Would that not, at minimum, imply that that's a very unreliable way of establishing the authorship of a holy book?
How can you claim that the Qur'an conveys the teachings of God effectively, when there are so many different interpretations - some on very minor matters, some on crucial point - of what the teachings are? Which teachings is it conveying effectively? And is not beauty in the eye of the beholder? Do you believe some things are beautiful in an absolute manner, regardless of point of view? Not just beautiful to me or you, or to us or them, but beautiful beyond interpretation, regardless of interpretation, inspite of interpretation?

This is very much true too. Like is said, there is room for opinions or preference. Just like the very concept of God is not agreed upon, the Quran isn't too. Some, will not feel anything when they read it. That could be for many reasons, may be they don't agree with some of the rules, may be they find the stories too fictional to be believed, and so on. Which like i told you, is very much understandable. However, it doesn't make it not perfect. Just like my believe in it as perfect, doesn't make it so. We will only be sure later on, when the times comes for these things to be verified.

As for the part about other people believing in other scriptures. This means, that my believe in the Quran to be so, is not enough on it's own. So, i have to read other scriptures to see, wether or not the same standards apply to all of them, or to another one at least. Which i did, like others did with the Quran, and different outcomes will come of that. I might read he bible and find contradictions, or things that i don't agree with, or concepts that i don't buy for whatever reason. While for another person, it will be the exact opposite.

So, if we assume that all scriptures meet these requirements for some, and for others they don't, which means that any of them could be the words of God, or none of them is the word of God. That leads back to the point of faith. That yes, while there is no proof that the Quran is indeed the word of God, i find it the one most likely to be so(for having such attributes, which i couldn't find in other books), and i have a very strong believe in it as that.

In other words, i couldn't find any errors in the Quran, which was not the case with other scriptures(in my opinion). Now, as to why, for someone who thinks just like i do, and is unbiased, finds the Quran not to be so, that could be for more that one reason. One of them, is that he may find the Quran meeting all the attributes i claim of it, however that is not enough for him to make the leap of faith. for another, he might have misunderstood something, or he just disagrees with something in the Quran.

For the part about interpretations, different opinions doesn't necessarily mean unclarity. Because aside for certain things, i believe the Quran to be very clear, and doesn't leave that much room. It only requires certain effort for you to understand, then it is all clear.
 
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Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
This is a subject, that i discussed in another thread. The added value, is faith. In other words, it shows faith and trust, for you to believe someone or believe in him, despite having no evidence for doing so.

May I present you with an excellent investment opportunity? Just send me $100,000 via PayPal and you will get an excellent return on your investment.
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
May I present you with an excellent investment opportunity? Just send me $100,000 via PayPal and you will get an excellent return on your investment.

It's not the same. The goal or outcome here isn't worth taking that leap of trust. I also don't need to do this, or in other words i have other choices than making this leap. Also, you are a human, and humans has shown that some of them are not trust worthy to put it lightly. So, i have many reasons not to make this kind of choice here.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
you are a human, and humans has shown that some of them are not trust worthy to put it lightly. So, i have many reasons not to make this kind of choice here.
What I find troubling is the notion that a being, that has never been proven to exist, is more worthy of your trust than your fellow human animals. Faith is indeed a very strange phenomena.
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What I find troubling is the notion that a being, that has never been proven to exist, is more worthy of your trust than your fellow human animals. Faith is indeed a very strange phenomena.

That's not what i meant. What i meant is, that since human beings has shown that some of them are not trust worthy, through various examples, that is one more reason for me not to take the chance and give someone i don't know my money. Also, it doesn't mean that i'd rather trust someone i don't know for sure to even exist. Because the example she gave isn't the same, it only applies to reasons of trust, or what i would consider enough to trust or have faith in someone or something. And, the example doesn't put in mind my options concerning God's existence. There is no evidence for his existence, that is what i'm faced with, and i have to make a choice. What's at stake here is different from the example.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Few people in the West. In the East, it's very relevant.

And that is not even the point. If Abu wants us to accept that minorities may be ignored, he is failing to support the rights of many Muslim communities, both Shia and Sunni. Not only in the West, but also in countries such as India and China. That is a more relevant fact than the headaches of accounting to the variety of divergent beliefs.
 

Commoner

Headache
It's not the same. The goal or outcome here isn't worth taking that leap of trust. I also don't need to do this, or in other words i have other choices than making this leap. Also, you are a human, and humans has shown that some of them are not trust worthy to put it lightly. So, i have many reasons not to make this kind of choice here.

Before I address your other points, I want to address this.

The outcome is irrelevant as it could have been anything - $100.000 (maybe even euros!), eternal salvation, 101 virgins, "everything you want/need", whatever.

Secondly, you do not know who the offer is coming from, do you? It's a piece of text flickering on your screen. And the offer you got from God is a piece of text on paper (which, btw, was most definitely put there by a non-trustworthy type of being). So, what you're going on is what the author is presenting themselves to be - in the case of the Qur'an, a god, in the case of this internet form, a human.

Thirdly, unless you actually accept the offer, you have no way of verifying the trustworthiness of the one offering it. You can say that you know that Auto is a human and humans are generally not trustworthy, but she could have just as easily asserted that she was a god. Since you have no experience with such a being and no way to assume that she isn't god (or at least, no better way that in the case of the Qur'an), you can either object on those grounds - that you simply cannot take the leap of faith in either case, or - your objection is not valid.

What justifies you to make the leap of faith in one case and not the other? On what grounds would you reject the offer of Auto, were she to present herself as god and make a better offer, and you had the misfortune of discovering the Qur'an only after this had transpired? In other words - before taking the leap of faith you cannot know that "God" is not human - not from the Qur'an. So why assume that there is some other unknown type of being?
 
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Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The outcome is irrelevant as it could have been anything - $100.000 (maybe even euros!), eternal salvation, 101 virgins, "everything you want/need", whatever.

There is a huge difference between eternal salvation, and believing in my creator or not, and between all the rest of the examples you gave.

Secondly, you do not know who the offer is coming from, do you? It's a piece of text flickering on your screen. And the offer you got from God is a piece of text on paper (which, btw, was most definitely put there by a non-trustworthy type of being). So, what you're going on is what the author is presenting themselves to be - in the case of the Qur'an, a god, in the case of this internet form, a human.

First, i didn't say all humans are not trust worthy, i said some of them are, and i don't know her, so she might be one of them.

Second, she didn't present anything except a promise. From a human that i don't know. She didn't provide any additional information to make me inclined to trust the offer, or trust her.

Third, The Quran is a book, which is claimed to be the word of God. It is a big book, and contains lots and lots of stuff, so i can read it and decide for myself.

Thirdly, unless you actually accept the offer, you have no way of verifying the trustworthiness of the one offering it. You can say that you know that Auto is a human and humans are generally not trustworthy, but she could have just as easily asserted that she was a god. Since you have no experience with such a being and no way to assume that she isn't god (or at least, no better way that in the case of the Qur'an), you can either object on those grounds - that you simply cannot take the leap of faith in either case, or - your objection is not valid.

She didn't claim to be a god so my objection was valid. You are criticizing an objection, that was made on different grounds than those you are saying now. Also, i don't believe any body who claim to be a God, not anyone who says he/she is a god must be believed in by me, otherwise i would have believed in other gods of other religions. I only believe in the one who is most likely true, based on the standards i already told you.

What justifies you to make the leap of faith in one case and not the other? On what grounds would you reject the offer of Auto, were she to present herself as god and make a better offer, and you had the misfortune of discovering the Qur'an only after this had transpired? In other words - before taking the leap of faith you cannot know that "God" is not human - not from the Qur'an. So why assume that there is some other unknown type of being?

Because both claims are not the same. If you want to make a similar case to the case of the Quran, then it would require a lot more effort than this. Your example is not at all the same as the case here. So, my rejection of one and acceptance of another is very understandable.

Which by the way is already there, the bible is very close to the case of the Quran, and you already know why i don't accept it, so there is no contradiction here.
 
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