What calculations makes you an atheist ?

[ppp]

Still am confused with your reply.

I am confused by your confusion.

 

[chinu]

I am confused by your confusion.

Lets start again.

Do you care to rephrase your first reply to this OP ?

 

[ratiocinator]

Atheist becomes an Atheist after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being an Atheist.
Theist becomes a Theist after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Theist.

That's just silly. Scientists don't draw conclusions based on the profit or loss of it being true or not but based on the available evidence and logical reasoning.

The "calculation" for me becoming an atheist is that I have seen zero evidence or sound arguments for any of the thousands of versions of god(s) that people have come up with.

 

[ppp]

Atheist becomes an Atheist after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being an Atheist.

Nope. No profit or loss calculations caused me to stop believing. Any actual profit or loss were not calculated.

Lets start again.

Do you care to rephrase your first reply to this OP ?

Happy to. What is unclear?

 

[chinu]

Nope. No profit or loss calculations caused me to stop believing. Any actual profit or loss were not calculated.

Actually, you are telling that.. you WIN over both profit and loss calculations before they cause anything to stop believing.

That was your PROFIT.

 

[ppp]

Actually, you are telling that.. you WIN over both profit and loss calculations before they cause anything to stop believing.

That was your PROFIT.

Nope.

 

[chinu]

That's just silly. Scientists don't draw conclusions based on the profit or loss of it being true or not but based on the available evidence and logical reasoning.

I don't know from where you got this. OP doesn't claim anything like this.

The "calculation" for me becoming an atheist is that I have seen zero evidence or sound arguments for any of the thousands of versions of god(s) that people have come up with.

OP simply says that.. one always has some kind of "Calculations" in order to lean towards something.

You have kind of "Calculation", that's it. That what is OP all about.

 

[chinu]

Nope.

Okay I loose you win.

Winning-PROFIT ?

 

[Nakosis]

Murderer becomes a Murderer after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Murderer.
Rapist becomes a Rapist after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Rapist.
Robber becomes a Robber after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Robber.
Doctor becomes a Doctor after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Doctor.
Politician becomes a Politician after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Politician.
Scientist becomes a Scientist after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Scientist.
Donor becomes a Donor after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Donor.

Similarly,

Atheist becomes an Atheist after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being an Atheist.
Theist becomes a Theist after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Theist.

What makes one's so ?
Ans: CALCULATIONS.

Profit or Loss ?
Ans: PROFIT. Because there's nobody who want Loss.

IF there's something wrong with any of the character (For example: Murderer), its his/her MISCALCULATION which is showing some kind of PROFIT of being so.
________________________________________________________________________________________
Taking all the above written into consideration, I want to ask you:

What CALCULATIONS makes you an ATHEIST ?

It's quite understood that there might be some kind of PROFIT that you have seen in becoming an atheist. What is that ? I want to learn from you.

So you're gambling right. Making a decision on some prediction of what you will gain or what you will lose.
Me, I'm not much of a gambler. So if you have to make a choice on which position to gamble on if there is information that allows a better prediction then you can make the better decision. If you can verify the information, verify the results that would be science.

With religion, prophets are basically fortunetellers. The information they provide can't be verified beyond the possibility that they occasionally get lucky with a prediction.

So if you are a gambler, you can pick your favorite fortuneteller and place your bets. Maybe you win, maybe you'll lose. Maybe you pick the right deity/belief to put your marker on.

Not being a gambler myself, picking either seems at best a coin toss or not even a coin toss because if you decide to pick a deity ti's one among many possible choices. So it's more like roulette, hoping your number comes up. Being an atheist means not placing a bet. Staying away from the roulette table entirely.

Even if I was a gambler, the profit & loss holds no particular appeal for me. I don't care about the promised profits nor about the promised losses. So to even spend my time at the roulette table seems a big waste of my time. I'd rather spend my time doing other things.

So really the choice not to make calculations based on claims made by fortunetellers makes me an atheist.

 

[ratiocinator]

I don't know from where you got this. OP doesn't claim anything like this.

All your examples in the OP were about profit and loss, you also said "It's quite understood that there might be some kind of PROFIT that you have seen in becoming an atheist".

I was making the point that it isn't all about profit and loss.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Murderer becomes a Murderer after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Murderer.
Rapist becomes a Rapist after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Rapist.
Robber becomes a Robber after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Robber.
Doctor becomes a Doctor after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Doctor.
Politician becomes a Politician after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Politician.
Scientist becomes a Scientist after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Scientist.
Donor becomes a Donor after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Donor.

Similarly,

Atheist becomes an Atheist after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being an Atheist.
Theist becomes a Theist after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Theist.

What makes one's so ?
Ans: CALCULATIONS.

Profit or Loss ?
Ans: PROFIT. Because there's nobody who want Loss.

IF there's something wrong with any of the character (For example: Murderer), its his/her MISCALCULATION which is showing some kind of PROFIT of being so.
________________________________________________________________________________________
Taking all the above written into consideration, I want to ask you:

What CALCULATIONS makes you an ATHEIST ?

It's quite understood that there might be some kind of PROFIT that you have seen in becoming an atheist. What is that ? I want to learn from you.

Atheist becomes an Atheist after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being an Atheist.
Theist becomes a Theist after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Theist.

Sorry, but that's not how it works with me. What I believe or do not believe isn't based on a 'profit and loss calculation'. It's based strictly on whether or not there is sufficient evidence to believe in something. Just because I would LIKE to believe something isn't a factor. If there isn't sufficient evidence that a claim is true then regardless of how much I might want it to be true, I'm not going to be able to believe in it.

Does verifiable evidence have anything at all to do with the calculations you make?

 

[Tambourine]

@chinu
You are starting from the false premise that Theistic worship would be the default state for all human beings, and breaking away from Theistic worship needs to be specifically justified while Theistic worship itself needs no such justification.

Since you have CALCULATED this beforehand, I would like to ask you:
In what way do you PROFIT from laying out your argument in his specific way?

 

[Heyo]

Murderer becomes a Murderer after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Murderer.
Rapist becomes a Rapist after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Rapist.
Robber becomes a Robber after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Robber.
Doctor becomes a Doctor after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Doctor.
Politician becomes a Politician after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Politician.
Scientist becomes a Scientist after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Scientist.
Donor becomes a Donor after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Donor.

Similarly,

Atheist becomes an Atheist after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being an Atheist.
Theist becomes a Theist after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Theist.

What makes one's so ?
Ans: CALCULATIONS.

Profit or Loss ?
Ans: PROFIT. Because there's nobody who want Loss.

IF there's something wrong with any of the character (For example: Murderer), its his/her MISCALCULATION which is showing some kind of PROFIT of being so.
________________________________________________________________________________________
Taking all the above written into consideration, I want to ask you:

What CALCULATIONS makes you an ATHEIST ?

It's quite understood that there might be some kind of PROFIT that you have seen in becoming an atheist. What is that ? I want to learn from you.

Like others here, I have never "become" an atheist, I just stayed in the default position.

I like (and think I understand) your use of calculation and profit, but you may want to explain it more precisely for others.

My (unconscious) calculations always returned zero when someone tried to sell me belief. The cost/benefit never appealed to me. But then I've always been a hard sell. If I don't need it, I don't buy it.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

This is wrong. Because human beings don't live their lives based on calculation of profit and loss.

Murderer becomes a Murderer after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Murderer.
Rapist becomes a Rapist after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Rapist.
Robber becomes a Robber after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Robber.
Doctor becomes a Doctor after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Doctor.
Politician becomes a Politician after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Politician.
Scientist becomes a Scientist after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Scientist.
Donor becomes a Donor after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Donor.

Similarly,

Atheist becomes an Atheist after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being an Atheist.
Theist becomes a Theist after CALCULATING the Profit & Loss of being a Theist.

What makes one's so ?
Ans: CALCULATIONS.

Profit or Loss ?
Ans: PROFIT. Because there's nobody who want Loss.

IF there's something wrong with any of the character (For example: Murderer), its his/her MISCALCULATION which is showing some kind of PROFIT of being so.
________________________________________________________________________________________
Taking all the above written into consideration, I want to ask you:

What CALCULATIONS makes you an ATHEIST ?

It's quite understood that there might be some kind of PROFIT that you have seen in becoming an atheist. What is that ? I want to learn from you.

This assumption doesn't for instance account for Christianity. Those who converted to following Jesus had people offer them all kinds of things to change their mind. As you will see in many businesses offering people perks such as overtime if they work on Sunday. And on the other end, we have martyrs. Lots and lots of martyrs, people who were offered the stick rather than the carrot for failing to "get with the program" and leave behind their faith.

 

[Heyo]

This is wrong. Because human beings don't live their lives based on calculation of profit and loss.

@chinu see what I mean?

Yes, they do. You don't have to take "calculation" and "profit" literally, though. A calculation can be an unconscious assessment and profit is any gain that is satisfactory, not only monetary. Thus even a martyr can make a calculation (decision) that the profit (satisfaction of staying true to her/his conviction) outweighs the cost (her/his life).

 

[lewisnotmiller]

No, there's NO profit. Actually, its a MISCALCULATION by someone who has done this.
I already said in OP that if someone is doing something wrong, its a MISCALCULATION.

It's really not, though. People take actions all the time that are not based on calculation. By definition, calculation implies an assessment of risk and reward, a weighing up of actions, and a decision based on this process. There is simply no evidence to suggest that is a universal approach to decision making in humans, and an enormous amount of evidence to the contrary.

You said.. People are often reactive, emotional, and may not even fully understand their own motives. True that.
Perhaps, rape is the case where criminal is finding by profit providing food to own lust/emotions, but, caring less for the punishment/loss.

Look, perhaps you are suggesting that humans react based on perceived reward. And that their ability to determine effectively the true impacts of their actions can be inadequate (what you're calling a 'miscalculation'). There is an argument, in psychology, that true altruism doesn't exist, and even where people are apparently acting to their own detriment and in the greater good, they are doing it for psychological reward. I can see that argument. But bringing words like 'calculate' into it denotes considered action, and humans regularly take action which isn't 'considered', and isn't even 'considered but poorly judged'. Instead there is a common human trait to act without consideration (at times).
So I would completely reject the proposal that human actions are 'calculated', and bad actions come from a 'miscalculation'.

Sometime, NOT getting fooled by any concept.. is also a kinda profit.
Or, sometimes avoiding the possibility of NOT getting any loss.. is also a kinda of profit.

What about that ?

I really don't understand why you're using the term 'profit', but if I keep myself to what I think you mean...
Of course. If I said to you 'Hey, I'm actually a Nigerian Prince, and if you send me a thousand dollars, I can come over and visit, and give you a nice Ferrari on my arrival as a thank-you' then the only 'profit' in you telling me no is to avoid loss. Clearly I'm not a Nigerian Prince, and the Ferrari is a scam to try and fleece you out of $1000.

Ultimately your use of 'calculation' and 'profit' in describing the ideas you are trying to describe are misappropriations of the terms, and make the concepts more confusing (rather than clearer).

My advice, for what it's worth;
Replace 'calculated' with 'considered'. I'd still disagree, but that more closely matches your position I think.
Replace 'profit' with 'reward', and add the concept of 'avoiding loss/cost' to some level (although that's subjective...).

 

[lewisnotmiller]

This is wrong. Because human beings don't live their lives based on calculation of profit and loss.

Agreed!

This assumption doesn't for instance account for Christianity. Those who converted to following Jesus had people offer them all kinds of things to change their mind. As you will see in many businesses offering people perks such as overtime if they work on Sunday. And on the other end, we have martyrs. Lots and lots of martyrs, people who were offered the stick rather than the carrot for failing to "get with the program" and leave behind their faith.

Didn't those people believe in an eternal life as reward for faithful service?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

You are unnecessarily trying to increase the grace of your sentence by using the word.. "us"
Better, just speak for your own self, NOT others. Because this act of your sounds like a forcefully-taken-authorization of other forum-members to speak on their behalf.

No it doesn't.
Grammatically it's an indication that he's speaking about 'humanity' as a whole, rather than himself specifically. It does not change the fact that he's expressing a personal opinion, nor indicate ownership of other people's opinions.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

That's just silly. Scientists don't draw conclusions based on the profit or loss of it being true or not but based on the available evidence and logical reasoning.

-ish.
Ultimately humans are humans, and reward-based motivations are universal. The best scientists adhere to strict methodologies and peer-review processes to check themselves (amongst other reasons).
I don't disagree with the general thrust of your point, but all humans are driven by reward-based motivations to some degree. There is conjecture around the level, I would say.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Like others here, I have never "become" an atheist, I just stayed in the default position.

I like (and think I understand) your use of calculation and profit, but you may want to explain it more precisely for others.

My (unconscious) calculations always returned zero when someone tried to sell me belief. The cost/benefit never appealed to me. But then I've always been a hard sell. If I don't need it, I don't buy it.

Slight tangent, so okay if you don't want to answer, but...
How do you calculate reward on belief, and change it accordingly? I get that you can act like a believer, or act like a non-believer. But the kernel of belief in a higher power that you have or don't have wouldn't change based on a reward assessment.

For example, let's say I moved to a country where atheism was socially frowned on, and led to ostracization, lack of job opportunities, etc. Whilst there was a relatively benign religion available which was basically 'live and let live'. It was widely respected, and asked little of it's believers apart from attending church once a week for a brief service, and paying lip service to God occasionally. It was even arguing that atheists should be less ostracized, and treated with more humanity.

I would be motivated to pretend belief. I might attend church, and I might occasionally say something like 'you'll be in my prayers tonight', or something vague about 'God's plan'.
But whether I actually believed in God wouldn't change based on that. It might change over time - personally I believe our 'choice' is more tied to the evidence and investigations we allow ourselves to consider than anything else - but the belief is the belief, regardless of motivation.

Thoughts?