What came before the Big Bang?

[godnotgod]

I am not that far off. That is the way space-time works, I am speaking real physics here. Speed or high gravity bends space-time. In theory this would allow us to be at any point in the universe in an instant, especially with the speed of light thing or the high gravity like black holes that warp space time to the point of it not being a factor any more. How you guys mangle consciousness into any of this is beyond me. However I have an idea. That idea which experiments show that with those quantum effects particles seem to know things, seem to predict things, all this just being an illusion really, a trick of physics. Sure there are correlations and spontaneous effects when things are entangled. However entanglement means at one point they had physical interaction of some sort, there is no getting around that.

So you allow non-local communication between brains.

In this particular experiment, the researchers were focusing on the hardware that is the brain, purely to find out if it was capable of non-locality. They were not interested in the transmission of information.

Summary :
Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen (EPR) correlations between human brains are studied to verify if the brain has a macroscopic quantum component.
Pairs of subjects were allowed to interact (they spent 20 minutes in a joint meditation) and were then separated inside semisilent Faraday chambers 14.5 m apart when their EEG activity was registered. Only one subject of each pair was stimulated by lOO flashes. When the stimulated subject showed distinct evoked potentials, the nonstimulated subject showed "transferred potentials" similar to those evoked in the stimulated subject.

Control subjects (which did not know each other and did not spend 20 minutes in joint meditation prior to the experiment) showed no such transferred potentials.

The transferred potentials demonstrate brain-to-brain nonlocal EPR correlation between brains, supporting the brain's quantum nature at the macrolevel.

http://www.matrixwissen.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1329:grinberg-zylberbaum-epr-paradox&catid=338&Itemid=366&lang=en

 

[godnotgod]

All there is, is evidence that shows correlation between brain and mind, all evidences suggests that mind is a product of brain.

It shows nothing of the sort. It does not even show the existence of mind.

 

[idav]

It shows nothing of the sort. It does not even show the existence of mind.

The answering back from the subject is the only evidence of a consious mind. If we poke someone and they dont respond we have no evidence that they are conscious but it doesnt mean it isnt there. How do you test a rock for consciousness, it is impossible, we cant poke it or ask it questions and expect conscious responses. Similarly the brain correlation is the only thing that shows us that brains are producing mind.

 

[godnotgod]

The answering back from the subject is the only evidence of a consious mind. If we poke someone and they dont respond we have no evidence that they are conscious but it doesnt mean it isnt there. How do you test a rock for consciousness, it is impossible, we cant poke it or ask it questions and expect conscious responses. Similarly the brain correlation is the only thing that shows us that brains are producing mind.

There is a response, but does that mean there is mind present, and that the brain produces it?

Computers respond. Do they have minds?

And what exactly is it you are calling 'mind'?

 

[idav]

There is a response, but does that mean there is mind present, and that the brain produces it?

Computers respond. Do they have minds?

And what exactly is it you are calling 'mind'?

When we are talking about evidence, response is necessary to test for even rudimentary awareness which computers and plants show. Computers do have a huge intelligence rivaling even man but they cant do self awareness in any meaningful way quite yet. That requires streaming consciousness which would require an amount of hardware and software that we have no way of replicating quite yet. Imagine the amount of data that needs to be retained to just have a day of streamed consciousness.

 

[godnotgod]

When we are talking about evidence, response is necessary to test for even rudimentary awareness which computers and plants show. Computers do have a huge intelligence rivaling even man but they cant do self awareness in any meaningful way quite yet. That requires streaming consciousness which would require an amount of hardware and software that we have no way of replicating quite yet. Imagine the amount of data that needs to be retained to just have a day of streamed consciousness.

Just because there is a response does not indicate awareness, let alone mind. Where do you get the notion that computers exhibit awareness at all? Any awareness associated with a computer's response is coming from the human operating it.

 

[idav]

Just because there is a response does not indicate awareness, let alone mind. Where do you get the notion that computers exhibit awareness at all? Any awareness associated with a computer's response is coming from the human operating it.

Yes agreed on your first sentence which makes it vey difficult to test for awareness of a rock or mere particle. I dont deny that.

I said computers exihibit response as does a plant which we are comfortable saying is due to chemical reactions in plants and ants for that matter.

 

[godnotgod]

Yes agreed on your first sentence which makes it vey difficult to test for awareness of a rock or mere particle. I dont deny that.

I said computers exihibit response as does a plant which we are comfortable saying is due to chemical reactions in plants and ants for that matter.

A computer still requires electricity and human intervention. It is not a naturally occurring phenomenon as biological life is. Yes, there is response, but no consciousness or mind. The responses are due to human programming.

Maybe the chemistry is just an evolutionarily developed tool used by plants and animals for automatic response, when it is consciousness that is really behind everything. Ants have probably reached a pinnacle of optimization by consciousness, but it is a consciousness of the entire colony.

Some early research in plant response points to their possessing consciousness, here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt3smrXkVpE

 

[atanu]

Where is stupidity? Well your comments about dead brains are a fantastic example.

You have not offered anything better than "It does not follow", so far. And you have not hesitated to insult others who have argued against your POV.

The argument however stands. Brain is not the source of consciousness or awareness.

1. The brain in dead body does not say "i am conscious".
2. There is no brain ever seen in absence of consciousness.
3. If brains chemicals generated consciousness then one's intelligence is determined. There is no way that truth value of any proposition can be determined.

Yet again your conclusion simply does not follow - I could argue that because bicycles have two wheels, therefore bananas are macrame.

You may argue as you wish to. You may repeat "conclusion does not follow..", without offering any reasoning as long as you like.
.......

Asserting that physical brain, which is a seen object of Consciousness, is the Consciousness itself, is like asserting that a coil in a bulb is the source of light. Or that the engine of a car is the generator energy that moves the car.

 

[`mud]

I see a lack of recognition of the existance of whether or not there is cognizance present in the "brain" after death, and how far after "brain death".
When does brain death occur ? When does one really die, there's some here that believe in cognizance after death, aren't there ?
When does the "mind" die, or does it ? It probably depends on the amount of damage suffered in an accident or some outying occurance or something of that manner. But, does the "mind" go on after "brain death" or not ? I'm not convinced that it does, but what do I know, I'm just an old fart.
~
'mud

 

[`mud]

How did we get to the cosmos and "before BB" by talking about brain death ?
Just wondering ?
~
'mud

 

[idav]

How did we get to the cosmos and "before BB" by talking about brain death ?
Just wondering ?
~
'mud

They say, they can correct me if I am wrong, that consciousness precedes BB? What do you think. If it were fundamental, you would die and go back into the fundamentally conscious background.

 

[Thief]

I see a lack of recognition of the existance of whether or not there is cognizance present in the "brain" after death, and how far after "brain death".
When does brain death occur ? When does one really die, there some here that believe in cogizance after death, aren't there ?
When does the "mind" die, or does it ? It probably depends on the amount of damage suffered in an accident or some outying occurance or something of that manner. But, does the "mind" go on after "brain death" or not ? I'm not convinced that it does, but what do I know, I'm just an old fart.
~
'mud

Been blind seven days....did not stop 'seeing'.
My arms have been cold and unresponsive.....did not stop 'feeling'.
I recovered....for now.

Damage to the nerve will take away the item far at side of damage.
Damage to the brain reduces ability depending what part of the matter.

I believe the spirit remains intact.

Therefore, your injuries and ailments do not follow.
Your mind is free as soon as the 'connection' is severed altogether.

Your body goes back to the ground.
Your spirit goes to wherever you belong.
Likely to be alongside others that think and feel as you do.
How else to be fair?
How else to be happy?

Can you live with yourself?.....forever?

 

[godnotgod]

I see a lack of recognition of the existance of whether or not there is cognizance present in the "brain" after death, and how far after "brain death".
When does brain death occur ? When does one really die, there some here that believe in cogizance after death, aren't there ?
When does the "mind" die, or does it ? It probably depends on the amount of damage suffered in an accident or some outying occurance or something of that manner. But, does the "mind" go on after "brain death" or not ? I'm not convinced that it does, but what do I know, I'm just an old fart.
~
'mud

Who lives? Who dies?

If there is no self, what is there that goes on?

'You don't live life; you ARE life!'
Mooji

'There is no river that flows; there is only flowing water.'
godnotgod

 

[godnotgod]

Been blind seven days....did not stop 'seeing'.
My arms have been cold and unresponsive.....did not stop 'feeling'.
I recovered....for now.

Damage to the nerve will take away the item far at side of damage.
Damage to the brain reduces ability depending what part of the matter.

I believe the spirit remains intact.

Therefore, your injuries and ailments do not follow.
Your mind is free as soon as the 'connection' is severed altogether.

Your body goes back to the ground.
Your spirit goes to wherever you belong.
Likely to be alongside others that think and feel as you do.
How else to be fair?
How else to be happy?

Can you live with yourself?.....forever?

All that you now are comes from your being integrated into this Earthly existence. Do you really think to carry it forward into a place that is not of this world? Of what use will any of it be? Isn't the whole point of an afterlife that of totally new experience? Why contaminate it's purity and pristine beauty with the toxic residue of the ego that pales in comparison?

'We ain't gonna take you
Never did and never will
We forsake you
Gonna rape you
Let's forget you better still'

from Tommy The Who

 

[Thief]

All that you now are comes from your being integrated into this Earthly existence. Do you really think to carry it forward into a place that is not of this world? Of what use will any of it be? Isn't the whole point of an afterlife that of totally new experience? Why contaminate it's purity and pristine beauty with the toxic residue of the ego that pales in comparison?

'We ain't gonna take you
Never did and never will
We forsake you
Gonna rape you
Let's forget you better still'

from Tommy The Who

Not much point in a device to generate individual spirits...only to lose that quality.

 

[godnotgod]

Not much point in a device to generate individual spirits...only to lose that quality.

The beauty of a snowflake is like that. It's form is temporal, but its substance survives. Without change and death, there is no life, so stop clinging to death and live your life now, as it unfolds. Don't you remember what the Carpenter told you about worrying about the 'morrow in the Parable of the Lilies of the Field? If you try to preserve your life, you will lose it. This particular dance comes to an end, but the universal dance goes on forever. So stop your concern with the end and dance now. That is the point of living; and not trying to preserve the ego in an afterlife. The afterlife is now, and you are missing it.

 

[Thief]

The beauty of a snowflake is like that. It's form is temporal, but its substance survives. Without change and death, there is no life, so stop clinging to death and live your life now, as it unfolds. Don't you remember what the Carpenter told you about worrying about the 'morrow in the Parable of the Lilies of the Field? If you try to preserve your life, you will lose it. This particular dance comes to an end, but the universal dance goes on forever. So stop your concern with the end and dance now. That is the point of living; and not trying to preserve the ego in an afterlife. The afterlife is now, and you are missing it.

Yep....your song and dance will end.

Mine will go on.

 

[idav]

Yep....your song and dance will end.

Mine will go on.

Whatever the case, hoping the reality into existence isn't going to cut it. If it is there then it is there for everyone. You think just believing its chemicals means I won't be able to experience spirit? I find that rather odd.

 

[godnotgod]

Yep....your song and dance will end.

Mine will go on.

What do you suppose Heaven could possibly want with a nun-seducer, sword-maker, and martial artist? All old useless costumes in the new life. Excess baggage.