What came before the Big Bang?

[Ouroboros]

Uh huh.. Someday the notion of causation will be a philosophical Model T relegated to The Museum of Philosophical Oddities. Descarte's cogito ergo sum is well on its way already, while down the hall we have ex nihilo fit.

Yes. I agree.

Causation is an illusion, even in its current form. What causes what, exactly? On a molecular level? On a quantum level? On a Higgs field level? Where exactly is the cause and effect actually taking place? And if it does take place on that small level, then "One" cause is in actuality a trillion-trillion simultaneous "causes" in their own little bubble of time-space. So what is it exactly? It's just a human concept that groups some event into being the cause of something else.

 

[godnotgod]

Yes. I agree.

Causation is an illusion, even in its current form. What causes what, exactly? On a molecular level? On a quantum level? On a Higgs field level? Where exactly is the cause and effect actually taking place? And if it does take place on that small level, then "One" cause is in actuality a trillion-trillion simultaneous "causes" in their own little bubble of time-space. So what is it exactly? It's just a human concept that groups some event into being the cause of something else.

So if the BB cannot have occurred in space/time as a result of causation, then it must have occurred in non-space/time. The only thing I can think of that exists outside of time and space is consciousness. Consciousness has no-thing in it, and yet, it appears that Every-thing has come out of it.

 

[outhouse]

The only thing I can think of

We don't make arguments from ignorance.

And all "you can think" of is not really adding anything credible.

Consciousness has no-thing in it, and yet, it appears that Every-thing has come out of it.

So everything exist in imagination? because you can only imagine?

Your not making a bit of sense here.

then it must have occurred in non-space/time

Correct, it created space time.




A black hole is a singularity. For all we know a massive blackhole exploded.



It is OK to say we don't know.

Its much better then attributing ancient mens mythology making you wrong instantly.

 

[godnotgod]

We don't make arguments from ignorance.

And all "you can think" of is not really adding anything credible.

Then you tell me what it is that can possibly exist outside of space-time. All science, philosophy, religion, etc. begin with some idea or insight. I will change my wording then, to say that there is nothing that exists outside of space-time except consciousness. If you would like to challenge that statement, then by all means...

So everything exist in imagination? because you can only imagine?

Your not making a bit of sense here.

No, you are not making sense. I did not say that everything exists due to any personal imaginary view. I am referring to Ultimate Reality.

Correct, it created space time.

Excuse me? That which is not of time and space 'created'space-time? Space-time are not things that can be 'created'. They are merely concepts. Anything you can call 'it' must already have existed in space-time, except consciousness. By making this statement you are just making things up. No one knows how 'space-time' came into being. They didn't. They're illusions.

A black hole is a singularity. For all we know a massive blackhole exploded.

Where is the black hole in time and space?

It is OK to say we don't know.

So how is it that you are so certain that something that did not exist in space-time created space-time?

Its much better then attributing ancient mens mythology making you wrong instantly.

The reason you don't see anything is because you are still trying to see things in terms of space-time.

 

[Ouroboros]

So if the BB cannot have occurred in space/time as a result of causation, then it must have occurred in non-space/time. The only thing I can think of that exists outside of time and space is consciousness. Consciousness has no-thing in it, and yet, it appears that Every-thing has come out of it.

Yet consciousness, as far as we know, is dependent on time and finite bodies. So I think there's an interdependence that can't be broken. Time-space and consciousness are two sides to the same coin. Ultimately, we can't really logically understand how it all comes together. Saying that one comes before the other still rests on our limited view of the world.

 

[godnotgod]

Yet consciousness, as far as we know, is dependent on time and finite bodies. So I think there's an interdependence that can't be broken. Time-space and consciousness are two sides to the same coin. Ultimately, we can't really logically understand how it all comes together. Saying that one comes before the other still rests on our limited view of the world.

So you are saying that consciousness is a local phenomena, only present in finite bodies in time, while I am saying that it is non-local, outside of time and space, and is behind the emergence of finite bodies.

When the mind is held still, is the consciousness that is behind mind limited to time and space? If so, what is there to contain it as such? I don't see such encapsulation.

 

[Thief]

So you are saying that consciousness is a local phenomena, only present in finite bodies in time, while I am saying that it is non-local, outside of time and space, and is behind the emergence of finite bodies.

When the mind is held still, is the consciousness that is behind mind limited to time and space? If so, what is there to contain it as such? I don't see such encapsulation.

Try using the word ....'presence'.

 

[idav]

So you are saying that consciousness is a local phenomena, only present in finite bodies in time, while I am saying that it is non-local, outside of time and space, and is behind the emergence of finite bodies.

When the mind is held still, is the consciousness that is behind mind limited to time and space? If so, what is there to contain it as such? I don't see such encapsulation.

Things are limited by spacetime being localized and processed. The awareness of the infinite outside spacetime cannot be processed.

 

[outhouse]

I will change my wording then, to say that there is nothing that exists outside of space-time except consciousness.

Except that consciousness is a state only in a brain.

No brain exist outside space time, so your factually wrong.


[

No, you are not making sense.

because you dont understand whats going on here.

I did not say that everything exists due to any personal imaginary view. I am referring to Ultimate Reality.

Your wrong.

The fact is, we dont know. It cannot be the ultimate reality when we just dont know.

Anything you can call 'it' must already have existed in space-time,

You really should learn about things before making comments.

No one knows how 'space-time' came into being.

We know space time was created in the big bang.

Where is the black hole in time and space?

It could be the seed that created space time.

So how is it that you are so certain that something that did not exist in space-time created space-time?

Because the space and time you know, was factually created over 13 billion years ago.

No one is saying there may not have been other space time, thats why I asked you to learn before posting.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Do we really need a before? If something came before matter and energy we could not even possibly conceive of it considering all that we can imagine as the basis of objects are based upon matter and energy.
Diving into metaphysics like this seems to be a profoundly stupid idea. I really wish to say this lightly but only a fool would bother making claims of the origins of the universe and really upon metaphysical conceptions solely.
When it comes to things like this you have to keep in mind that even we conceive of something like a god we are presuming it has human traits and quite frankly there is nothing known to have consciousness without a body. 0 evidence exist for such a thing.

Theists actually work their way backwards and assume that anything that came before what we perceive as reality must be like our reality. This is like witnessing a car and assuming centuries before people had older models of cars but in fact they used horses. Must I really explain the lack of correlation between a horse and a car?

Humans living in a set culture understand things to be made by others but mountains are not made by others. So what end sup happening is that we assert that everything must be like us and that thus the universe must be made by a consciousness and ironically human like being.
Science has only told us how mountains are formed, WITHOUT a deity or conscious entity behind it so why assume otherwise. We know for a fact the vast majority of things are formed and uncreated by a conscious entity. Even the very nature of what is conscious is blurry when you dive into Hylozoistic, Hylopathistic and Panpsychic conceptualizations of matter and the cosmos.

Even when the concept of a god is pushed forth this god ironically has the same values as the culture and person who created the concept. It is nothing but self idolization painted onto the world

 

[JM2C]

The two gases that collided, can someone explain where they came from?
Was there one gas first or two came out at the same time.

 

[outhouse]

The two gases that collided, can someone explain where they came from?
Was there one gas first or two came out at the same time.

You could actualy use a search engine and learn about this before posting.

 

[Ouroboros]

So you are saying that consciousness is a local phenomena, only present in finite bodies in time,

Yes.

Because consciousness is a state of being aware and awake. You can only be in a state if there's a limit or finite properties. A "state" in electronics, computers, etc, always refer to something that holds up things to a condition in time and space. Being aware is a matter of seeing, hearing, feeling, experiencing a here and now. It requires space-time to be aware.

while I am saying that it is non-local, outside of time and space, and is behind the emergence of finite bodies.

That's where we disagree. Being conscious means to be finite in a substrate of some form.

Also, there can't be any "consciousness" either before the beginning, unless the beginning wasn't first. Time and space began to exist, and the potentiality or perhaps a reality of consciousness was born at that time, but not before. Or, perhaps all of it is eternal, both consciousness and time-space.

When the mind is held still, is the consciousness that is behind mind limited to time and space? If so, what is there to contain it as such? I don't see such encapsulation.

The process of things contains it. It's emergent from the swarm behavior of matter, energy, etc in time and space. It's all interconnected. No separation.

 

[`mud]

Some time in the future, quite a ways in the future, man and all life will cease to be on this planet.
There won't be any "consiousness", because there won't be any minds or any life to imagine it.
What will the Cosmos appear to be then, to anything ?
Where will the "I" or the "i" be then ?
~
It will happen, you know............but....Thief will be there, all cuddled up in his clouds.
~
as "I" asked, what will happen to the Cosmos then ?
~
Just asking.........and once again, from where did the singularity come ?
~
'mud

 

[godnotgod]

Things are limited by spacetime being localized and processed. The awareness of the infinite outside spacetime cannot be processed.

Where does spacetime leave off and the infinite begin? You are defining the infinite in terms of limited spacetime. Not making sense.

 

[godnotgod]

Try using the word ....'presence'.

'Presence' is how consciousness manifests itself, but it does not contain consciousness as a local phenomenon.

 

[idav]

Where does spacetime leave off and the infinite begin? You are defining the infinite in terms of limited spacetime. Not making sense.

I don't really know much about spacetime, what I do know is it is part of this universe and is the part that makes the universe have space and time. Outside of spacetime there is no where or when, which leaves me with infinite. It is kinda like saying what happens when you get outside the edge of the universe, there may be limitations from what we see but it goes beyond what we would consider the edge.

Where does it end and begin? Nowhere in particular spacetime is expanding, presumably expanding into 'nothingness' which happens to be infinite.

 

[outhouse]

Where does spacetime leave off and the infinite begin? .

Infinite may not exist.

We don't know.

Space time is limited and we can actually see the edges.

 

[Thief]

Time does not exist.

The infinite does exist....between any two points.

 

[Thief]

Some time in the future, quite a ways in the future, man and all life will cease to be on this planet.
There won't be any "consiousness", because there won't be any minds or any life to imagine it.
What will the Cosmos appear to be then, to anything ?
Where will the "I" or the "i" be then ?
~
It will happen, you know............but....Thief will be there, all cuddled up in his clouds.
~
as "I" asked, what will happen to the Cosmos then ?
~
Just asking.........and once again, from where did the singularity come ?
~
'mud

The question 'where' can't be applied.
Neither can 'when'.

'How' would be the item to know.
We get to ask Him 'when' we get there.