What came before the Big Bang?

[godnotgod]

[/color]

Except that consciousness is a state only in a brain.

No brain exist outside space time, so your factually wrong.

Right. And TV signals emanate from the TV set and there is a little man inside.

because you dont understand whats going on here.

Are you claiming that you do? Show us your Nobel Prize.

Your wrong.

The fact is, we dont know. It cannot be the ultimate reality when we just dont know.

What you mean to say is that YOU don't know, and if you don't, as you admit, then how do you claim to 'understand'?

You really should learn about things before making comments.

I am not the one claiming that some 'IT' pre-existed the BB. If there was such an 'IT' that existed, time and space must already have been in place. I'm just using simple logic. We don't need complex science experiments or peer reviewed papers to determine this, or do we?

We know space time was created in the big bang.

No, you don't know that. Space/time are not things that can be created or destroyed; they are CONCEPTS only.

It could be the seed that created space time.

Use your head: A black hole in time and space cannot be that which created time and space.

Because the space and time you know, was factually created over 13 billion years ago.

You're deluded and hypnotized.

No one is saying there may not have been other space time, thats why I asked you to learn before posting.

It would be better if you UN-learn before posting.

 

[godnotgod]

Yes.

Because consciousness is a state of being aware and awake. You can only be in a state if there's a limit or finite properties. A "state" in electronics, computers, etc, always refer to something that holds up things to a condition in time and space. Being aware is a matter of seeing, hearing, feeling, experiencing a here and now. It requires space-time to be aware.


That's where we disagree. Being conscious means to be finite in a substrate of some form.

Also, there can't be any "consciousness" either before the beginning, unless the beginning wasn't first. Time and space began to exist, and the potentiality or perhaps a reality of consciousness was born at that time, but not before. Or, perhaps all of it is eternal, both consciousness and time-space.


The process of things contains it. It's emergent from the swarm behavior of matter, energy, etc in time and space. It's all interconnected. No separation.

I think you mean 'mind' rather than consciousness. Mind is limited to time and space; consciousness is not. At any rate, we have a universe. Is it conscious or not?

If consciousness is not limited to time and space, then there is no 'before' or 'after'. There is only now.

You seem to propose that consciousness requires an agent of consciousness, a 'consciousness-er'. Can consciousness itself be a reality without such an agent, and if so, can it be that we have it backward: that is to say, that the agent is the outcome of consciousness, rather than the other way round? We do have scientific evidence that concentrated awareness (meditation) actually grows brain material.

BTW, I previously presented a scientific experiment (J. Grinberg-Zylberbaum)
that proves the non-locality of brain response. which has now been replicated and verified around the world. Do you deny this?

 

[godnotgod]

~
Just asking.........and once again, from where did the singularity come ?
~
'mud

From Consciousness. There never was a time or space when consciousness did not exist, because it is not limited to time and space. Consciousness is only found in the timeless spaceless eternal NOW. But because of our conditioning, we see the present moment through the mental conditioning of our indoctrination, which is the linear clock time, which makes the present only a fleeting elusive tick of the clock. That is not how it is. You are looking at the grid pattern laid over Reality, rather than Reality itself.

 

[godnotgod]

I don't really know much about spacetime, what I do know is it is part of this universe and is the part that makes the universe have space and time. Outside of spacetime there is no where or when, which leaves me with infinite. It is kinda like saying what happens when you get outside the edge of the universe, there may be limitations from what we see but it goes beyond what we would consider the edge.

Where does it end and begin? Nowhere in particular spacetime is expanding, presumably expanding into 'nothingness' which happens to be infinite.

Which makes space-time merely an arbitrary grid pattern, overlaid onto the whereless and whenless universe. The universe actually exists in no particular space or time. These are mere concepts which we have mistakenly become accustomed to, to the point of calling them real, just as we call "I" real, when it is only an illusion.

I tell you again. remove these filters you have been indoctrinated with to believe as real, under the color of scientific 'authority', and you will see the universe quite differently.

 

[godnotgod]

Do we really need a before? If something came before matter and energy we could not even possibly conceive of it considering all that we can imagine as the basis of objects are based upon matter and energy.
Diving into metaphysics like this seems to be a profoundly stupid idea. I really wish to say this lightly but only a fool would bother making claims of the origins of the universe and really upon metaphysical conceptions solely.
When it comes to things like this you have to keep in mind that even we conceive of something like a god we are presuming it has human traits and quite frankly there is nothing known to have consciousness without a body. 0 evidence exist for such a thing.

Theists actually work their way backwards and assume that anything that came before what we perceive as reality must be like our reality. This is like witnessing a car and assuming centuries before people had older models of cars but in fact they used horses. Must I really explain the lack of correlation between a horse and a car?

Humans living in a set culture understand things to be made by others but mountains are not made by others. So what end sup happening is that we assert that everything must be like us and that thus the universe must be made by a consciousness and ironically human like being.
Science has only told us how mountains are formed, WITHOUT a deity or conscious entity behind it so why assume otherwise. We know for a fact the vast majority of things are formed and uncreated by a conscious entity. Even the very nature of what is conscious is blurry when you dive into Hylozoistic, Hylopathistic and Panpsychic conceptualizations of matter and the cosmos.

Even when the concept of a god is pushed forth this god ironically has the same values as the culture and person who created the concept. It is nothing but self idolization painted onto the world

You are describing what is called The Ceramic or Artifact View of the Universe, in which God is the artisan and the universe an artifact, in the same vein as the potter and the pot. This is an extreme view. The opposite extreme view is the Fully Automatic View of the Universe, which you seem to favor. Both are fallacious. What you probably fail to realize is that the CA Universe is a stripped down model of the former CV of the Universe. IOW, it preserved the Laws, and eliminated the Law Giver. But the question remains: What was the case before the BB?, and the question is incorrect, because there cannot have been a before, as time did not yet exist.

The other issue you raise is that metaphysics cannot address this question. But some of us are neither scientists, theists, nor metaphysicians. We are mystics, who experience the universe internally. So it is not a question of philosophy, but of direct seeing into the nature of Reality, without doctrines. beliefs, concepts, models, or other props.

Here, check these vids out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfNbmwiTIlE

Quantum Physics has now provided us with an alternative to both of these extreme views, a view which incorporates both consciousness and physics as one Reality.

 

[`mud]

hey Thief,
Time does not exist.
You got that right

The infinite does exist....between any two points.
There are not any two points, that are fixed in the cosmos.
In fact....nothing is "fixed", (motionless), and the infinite can be of negative case.
Remember.......before the singularity, where nothing existed or moved, (except God of course) !
~
But.....I'll agree to a point(or two), maybe, an infinite number of points.
and time doesn't exist.
~
'mud

 

[`mud]

hey GNG
Going with the feeling in your gnosis,
I see you're aknowleging the presence of God being in existance before the BB,
before the presence of consciousness, in the singularity, before time, and before thought.
I'll have to think about that !!!....I become confused again !!!
~
'mud

 

[godnotgod]

hey GNG
Going with the feeling in your gnosis,
I see you're aknowleging the presence of God being in existance before the BB,
before the presence of consciousness, in the singularity, before time, and before thought.
I'll have to think about that !!!....I become confused again !!!
~
'mud

The appearance and disappearance of the universe only occurs in this eternal Present Moment in which there is no space and no time.

Now you see it; now you don't.

When I was a furniture finisher years ago, two Chinese hand carved and painted chairs came in for repair. One of the back splats was painted with a dragon with his tail curved back over his body, hiding the Sun and the Moon. The other chair showed the same dragon with his tail relaxed, revealing the Sun and the Moon.

Face it. We live in a world filled with magic and delight at every turn.

A Sufi saying says: 'Leave your soul slightly ajar, ready for the ecstatic moment'. What that translates to is to leave your mind empty so that notions about Reality do not get in the way of the enlightenment experience when it comes. Otherwise, one will be filled with crap, just as you said of me, LOL.

Maybe I'll go into the chakra decongestant business.

 

[`mud]

hey GNG,
That "before the crap" comment was in reference to a particular post and a couple of others that were adjoining to it....not just in general.
But sometimes.................................
~
We have to get that "pointed" place defined as to where the consciousness started.
And about a defined "point" where your opinion of God lies.......
I doubt that you'll want to do it....but maybe.
~
You really didn't answer the question about the beginning of the singularity.
~
There isn't really an "I", there's only "us", and the spirit of "all".
~
'mud

 

[godnotgod]

~
We have to get that "pointed" place defined as to where the consciousness started.
And about a defined "point" where your opinion of God lies.......
~
'mud

I don't think we can, as the Infinite is beyond any description. Actually, I do not prefer the use of the word 'God'.

I experience consciousness as not in space or time, so it has no place where it begins or ends. It has always been the case. We are just born into it like a fish into the sea. The fish does not know it is in the sea, partly because its focus is on food, predators, etc, IOW on the foreground of its existence, just as we are focused primarily on the foreground of life. Our attention is conditioned to this foreground right from the beginning and stays that way throughout our lives. We hardly ever pay any attention to the background of life, the sea of pure consciousness within which we all exist, and which is both inside and outside of us. Instead, we form a false concept of an encapsulated self called "I" that we then think further encapsulates consciousness into a finite package, all of which is nothing more than pure fiction. This is Identification. We have lost touch with the background, that which provides us our very lives. It is the nature of this background (Tao, Brahman, Absolute, etc) that, while it does nurture all of life, it does not interfere with it or dominate it. So, like the fish, we do not know we are in the sea of pure consciousness. We think consciousness comes from our brain and that it is a local phenomenon.

The best 'description' of God I know of is:

'God is a circle whose circumference is endless and whose center is Everywhere'

 

[raw_thought]

There was no "before" the big bang. Time began at the big bang. To ask "what came before the big bang" is like asking," what is north of the north pole."

 

[godnotgod]

Infinite may not exist.

We don't know.

Space time is limited and we can actually see the edges.

So space time is inside of not-space time.

Wouldn't that which is not-space time, which is outside the 'edge' of space time, be the Infinite? In fact, how can you know what limited space time is without the unlimited background against which they exist, which would be not-space time?

 

[Sha'irullah]

Funny, theists will not end this charade until they get god as the single point. This then rises the question, what came before god?
Well theists, tell us what did come before god?

 

[godnotgod]

Funny, theists will not end this charade until they get god as the single point. This then rises the question, what came before god?
Well theists, tell us what did come before god?

Paradox

God is not the root of contradiction, but God is the simplicity itself prior to every root. Nicholas of Cusa

In the Way of search for God everything is upside down. Rumi

The place wherein Thou art found unveiled is girt round with the coincidence of contradictions, and this is the wall of Paradise wherein Thou dost abide. The door whereof is guarded by the most proud spirit of Reason, and, unless he be vanquished, the way in will not lie open. Nicholas of Cusa

He is all contradictions. Vivekananda

Every creature denies it is the other. But God is the denier of denials. Meister Eckhart

Paradox

 

[Sha'irullah]

Paradox

God is not the root of contradiction, but God is the simplicity itself prior to every root. Nicholas of Cusa

In the Way of search for God everything is upside down. Rumi

The place wherein Thou art found unveiled is girt round with the coincidence of contradictions, and this is the wall of Paradise wherein Thou dost abide. The door whereof is guarded by the most proud spirit of Reason, and, unless he be vanquished, the way in will not lie open. Nicholas of Cusa

He is all contradictions. Vivekananda

Every creature denies it is the other. But God is the denier of denials. Meister Eckhart

Paradox

You have now proven that god is a ludicrous concept. Self refutation is not an admirable trait

 

[godnotgod]

You have now proven that god is a ludicrous concept. Self refutation is not an admirable trait

Oh, but God IS a ludicrous concept! God can never be encapsulated via concept, model, doctrine, belief, or even not-concept. What is being refuted is any notion whatsoever of God.

Doesn't leave us much, does it? Or maybe it leaves us with Everything.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Oh, but God IS a ludicrous concept! God can never be encapsulated via concept, model, doctrine, belief, or even not-concept. What is being refuted is any notion whatsoever of God.

Doesn't leave us much, does it? Or maybe it leaves us with Everything.

...and just like that my time on this thread has come to an end

 

[Ouroboros]

I think you mean 'mind' rather than consciousness. Mind is limited to time and space; consciousness is not. At any rate, we have a universe. Is it conscious or not?

The universe is limited to time and space. And consciousness is defined as:

the state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings.
the awareness or perception of something by a person.
the fact of awareness by the mind of itself and the world.

At least that's the result you get when you Google it.

If consciousness is not limited to time and space, then there is no 'before' or 'after'. There is only now.

Right. But I don't believe consciousness is it. We don't have a word for what it is, and it's not a consciousness in any shape and form.

You seem to propose that consciousness requires an agent of consciousness, a 'consciousness-er'. Can consciousness itself be a reality without such an agent, and if so, can it be that we have it backward: that is to say, that the agent is the outcome of consciousness, rather than the other way round? We do have scientific evidence that concentrated awareness (meditation) actually grows brain material.

Yes. Consciousness needs and agent for which it will become. Both are interdependent, like a symbiotic relationship.

BTW, I previously presented a scientific experiment (J. Grinberg-Zylberbaum)
that proves the non-locality of brain response. which has now been replicated and verified around the world. Do you deny this?

No. I do believe there's non-locality in the universe. Doesn't make it non-space or non-time.

Have they conducted an experiment where a consciousness is relating to an event a million years from now on another planet? That might suggest that it can be independent from time and space.

 

[godnotgod]

...and just like that my time on this thread has come to an end

Sorry, but God does not fit into your nice, neat little firmly packed model of Reason, Logic, and Analysis as you think IT should.

 

[godnotgod]

Yes. Consciousness needs and agent for which it will become. Both are interdependent, like a symbiotic relationship.

Why must that be so?