What came before the Big Bang?

[suncowiam]

Not sure I understand your question or suggestion here, but my understanding is that space-time are not factors in quantum entanglement. Alain's classic experiment with entangled photons, for example, exhibited instantaneous response, which I believe demonstrates signal-less communication faster than light speed. My inkling is that the explanation for this phenomenon is that the universe may be holographic.

BTW, in a very recent experimentm a photon has now been successfully quantum-teleported across space-time (25km) from one crystal to another:

Physicists Achieve Quantum Teleportation of Photon Over 25 Kilometers | IFLScience

Actually, quantum teleportation described in the article is the same as quantum entanglement. Its also mentioned in the article. I can only imagine the technologies that will evolve from further understanding of this.

 

[godnotgod]

I believe you are asserting that change can only occur in space and time so nothing could have happened before the big bang.

The BB itself could not have occurred. But all of this assumes that the BB is a real phenomenon. My position is that it is an illusion, albeit an illusion of a much higher order than the Earthly varieity. An illusion requires no space-time within which to occur. It is an event in consciousness, and consciousness exists outside of space-time.

So we are observing changes that are possibly not proprogating through space and time.

A Grand Illusion, if you will. Not only is there no space-time, there is also no change of any kind. It is all within consciousness:

1st observer: 'the flag is moving'
2nd observer: 'the wind is moving'
3rd observer: 'wrong! both flag and wind are moving!'
passerby: 'all wrong! your MINDS are moving!
Zen source

I don't know what a hologram is defined as so not sure what to make that.

Here's the basic idea, and possible how/why we see particles responding in synch:

http://www.rense.com/general69/holoff.htm

 

[suncowiam]

The BB itself could not have occurred. But all of this assumes that the BB is a real phenomenon. My position is that it is an illusion, albeit an illusion of a much higher order than the Earthly varieity. An illusion requires no space-time within which to occur. It is an event in consciousness, and consciousness exists outside of space-time.

A Grand Illusion, if you will. Not only is there no space-time, there is also no change of any kind. It is all within consciousness:

1st observer: 'the flag is moving'
2nd observer: 'the wind is moving'
3rd observer: 'wrong! both flag and wind are moving!'
passerby: 'all wrong! your MINDS are moving!
Zen source



Here's the basic idea, and possible how/why we see particles responding in synch:

The Holographic Universe

Interesting... Thanks

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Right, and since there is no 'The Center' to the universe, every point then becomes A center. Hence....

'.......whose center is everywhere.'

If there is no center then no point in the universe is "center". That is like saying "there is no edge therefore everywhere is the edge"

 

[godnotgod]

If there is no center then no point in the universe is "center". That is like saying "there is no edge therefore everywhere is the edge"

We can say that any and all points are a center simply because the universe is not finite, and therefore, there is no singular, Absolute center we would refer to as 'The Center'. Any place I stand is A center, as compared to The center. I can make any point a reference point in that case. You are a center; Iam a center; and all points are a center. Hence the statement.....

".....whose center is everywhere"

...but which does NOT mean that any of those centers is 'The Center', as you seem to be implying. No. There is no single point that can be called 'The Center'.

Do you get the difference between 'A' and 'The' here?

 

[Thief]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Are you following GnG?

Note the title....
Now try to say there is no God.

 

[suncowiam]

Are you following GnG?

Note the title....
Now try to say there is no God.

You're being political and conjectured the proposition.

I think you need to connect more dots before stating there is a god based on the idea of a hologram.

Also did you read all the articles presented?

 

[Thief]

You're being political and conjectured the proposition.

I think you need to connect more dots before stating there is a god based on the idea of a hologram.

Also did you read all the articles presented?

You would be surprised the many and various notions I see here at the forum.
I am also surprised (and dismayed) the various displays of scientific speculation going about on tv!!!!

It seems....here and on the cable....no one wants to deal with the 'beginning'.

I see this as soooooo simple.
At some 'point'....all things began.
Whether you prefer multiple 'branes' or recycled bangs.....
There was a beginning.

And at that same 'point' the question will be waiting.....
Spirit first?....or substance?

The discussion SHOULD continuing from that 'point' of decision.
NOT from a collection of....maybe this...maybe that....

Note my signature.

 

[suncowiam]

Sometimes your comments are rhetorical so its hard for me to understand you.

What do you define as spirit and substance?

 

[`mud]

hey Thief,
I like you...and I like to use dots also...pay no attention to them.
Look at me...I'm ok...aint I ????
~
But one thing though, if life is really important to reality,
and if life is the first 'substance' in our being,
then could the 'spirit' that's within us come last in birth.
~
I don't really know, 1st the dust then the man then the spirit.
Maybe you mean that the spirit leaves first and then the substance is last.
LIFO as we learned in comp 1, interesting concept, defining the 'spirit' is the problem.
I look at it like the memory to be left behind as memories to all the others.
I'll probably leave few memories, but maybe some 'spirit', we'll see won't we ?
~
'mud

 

[RichardParker]

I think you need to connect more dots before stating there is a god based on the idea of a hologram.

Oh... come... on! Don't make... fun of... him.
Dots are... important. How... else could... anybody... possibly make... a... point (... making a...point.......... ................... get...it?........)

It...'s.... a well... known... fact that... the quality.... of... your... argument... increases in direct... proportion... to the... number of... dots... in... your...co-....-m-.....-m-......-m-.......-m-.....-en-......t......!

 

[suncowiam]

Don't take me so literally.

Let's not get into a war on both sides. The subject of this thread is to discuss the possibility of what happened before the big bang. Nothing is a good answer. Something is also a good answer...

I'm fine with any answers as long as you're willing to describe why and I'll hear you out. Because, let's be honest, no body knows.

Thanks

 

[Monk Of Reason]

We can say that any and all points are a center simply because the universe is not finite, and therefore, there is no singular, Absolute center we would refer to as 'The Center'. Any place I stand is A center, as compared to The center. I can make any point a reference point in that case. You are a center; Iam a center; and all points are a center. Hence the statement.....

".....whose center is everywhere"

...but which does NOT mean that any of those centers is 'The Center', as you seem to be implying. No. There is no single point that can be called 'The Center'.

Do you get the difference between 'A' and 'The' here?

Yes. But do you realize you remove all meaning from your statement when you do this?

 

[godnotgod]

Yes. But do you realize you remove all meaning from your statement when you do this?

No, not at all. We know what the center of something is in the finite world, but not in the world of the infinite, because there is none, and that is because all points are a center. All points are here, now, no matter where you stand, making them central. We can say that because there is no Absolute Center to invalidate them as centers. All ocean wave-forms are made of the same substance as the formless sea: water. Where is the center of water? Everywhere, because water has the same nature everywhere it exists. And so it is with the universe.

Reading the following may give you a better picture of what I am saying:

http://www.rense.com/general69/holoff.htm

 

[Thief]

Don't take me so literally.

Let's not get into a war on both sides. The subject of this thread is to discuss the possibility of what happened before the big bang. Nothing is a good answer. Something is also a good answer...

I'm fine with any answers as long as you're willing to describe why and I'll hear you out. Because, let's be honest, no body knows.

Thanks

In grade school science class, we spent a couple of days on the topic of life and chemistry.
Specifically, how to recognize the difference.

I have noted.....dead things don't beget life.
If substance first, then all of life is a mystery without explanation....
and no serious line of distinction.

If you insist that life is chemistry committed to substance, then death is altogether terminal with NO hope of continuance.

Nothing waiting for you but eternal darkness of the grave.

Define spirit? (some foolish people keep asking)

It's that portion that will answer this post.

 

[Skwim]

No, not at all. We know what the center of something is in the finite world, but not in the world of the infinite, because there is none, and that is because all points are a center. All points are here, now, no matter where you stand, making them central. We can say that because there is no Absolute Center to invalidate them as centers. All ocean wave-forms are made of the same substance as the formless sea: water. Where is the center of water? Everywhere, because water has the same nature everywhere it exists. And so it is with the universe.

Reading the following may give you a better picture of what I am saying:

The Holographic Universe

Pure gibberish.

 

[godnotgod]

Pure gibberish.

That's what the Church Fathers said to Galileo....

...the Flat Earth Society persists to this day.

What's pure gibberish is your dismissing it as such, and just because you say so, and just because you fail to understand.

 

[suncowiam]

In grade school science class, we spent a couple of days on the topic of life and chemistry.
Specifically, how to recognize the difference.

I have noted.....dead things don't beget life.
If substance first, then all of life is a mystery without explanation....
and no serious line of distinction.

If you insist that life is chemistry committed to substance, then death is altogether terminal with NO hope of continuance.

Nothing waiting for you but eternal darkness of the grave.

Define spirit? (some foolish people keep asking)

It's that portion that will answer this post.

I already have a very strong affinity to substance. I haven't spent too much time defining spirit. I believe I read a bit on the subject concerning spirit versus substance in a philosophy book I rented from the library a long time ago.

I accept at death that I no longer exist but only in the memories of my love ones. I'm completely fine with that.

I think I once tried to define soul as simply memories but it was too contrived so I just stopped trying to define it.

How does this relate to the big bang though? I see it as more trying to define life or the meaning of life as opposed to the birth of the universe.

However, this notion of hologram suggests that I existed through eternity and everywhere which would encompass both life and the universe.

 

[Thief]

I already have a very strong affinity to substance. I haven't spent too much time defining spirit. I believe I read a bit on the subject concerning spirit versus substance in a philosophy book I rented from the library a long time ago.

I accept at death that I no longer exist but only in the memories of my love ones. I'm completely fine with that.

I think I once tried to define soul as simply memories but it was too contrived so I just stopped trying to define it.

How does this relate to the big bang though? I see it as more trying to define life or the meaning of life as opposed to the birth of the universe.

However, this notion of hologram suggests that I existed through eternity and everywhere which would encompass both life and the universe.

Well, ok....but....
If substance came first.....then death rules.....and life is a mystery.
I suppose you're ok with that too?

 

[suncowiam]

Well, ok....but....
If substance came first.....then death rules.....and life is a mystery.
I suppose you're ok with that too?

Life is not mystery to me. I'm actually very content with my life and have purpose with it.

I think you mean after life when you speak of spirit and souls. That, I have zero credit at the moment concerning preparation.

I'm perfectly ok with it. One important goal outside of raising my kids is to witness most of mans technological discoveries before dying.