What came before the Big Bang?

[godnotgod]

The key factor to your argument that you are missing is a compelling nature.

Are you kidding? What could be more compelling than you are asleep dreaming that this world is real, that you are caught up in its drama, but that it is but a projection of a universal consciousness, that is the only true reality, and that you are none other than that? IOW, you are the Infinite pretending to be someone other than who you really are.

 

[Mycroft]

You're not getting what I'm saying: nothing happened! It's all an illusion. The only reality is consciousness itself, which is changeless. When you awaken from this dream where there appears to be action, you will see that nothing is real. It's just that you're caught up in the drama because you believe it is real.

So if you were homeless and starving, that would be of no concern to you because you are convinced it's all an illusion anyway? That people are starving and dying all around the world is immaterial to you because it's not actually real?

 

[godnotgod]

So if you were homeless and starving, that would be of no concern to you because you are convinced it's all an illusion anyway? That people are starving and dying all around the world is immaterial to you because it's not actually real?

The suffering is real because it is experienced via consciousness, but the thinking which created the homelessness, starvation and subsequent deaths is based on illusion. If the same actions or non-actions which created these negative results had been based on awakened consciousness, none of them would have occurred, or if some of them had occurred, awakened consciousness would have responded in order to address them. Why? Because awakened consciousness is intimately connected to compassion for the sufferings of others.

All of man's wars, racial and religious hatreds, etc, are based on ignorance, greed, and stupidity, which in turn, are based on delusional thought. It is this ignorance that is the cause of man's metaphysical and physical suffering. It all points to consciousness. Actions based upon deluded consciousness creates suffering; enlightened consciousness creates real happiness.

Most people believe the material world to be real, but we have worldwide starvation in spite of it, or maybe because of it. Because they think it is real, they want to possess it, but they do it at the expense of others.

Chinese Hell: The scene is a huge banquet hall where there is a huge table with a sumptuous feast, but the guests are all starving because the chopsticks are too long.

Chinese Heaven: Same scene, but the guests are feeding each other.

 

[godnotgod]

Can the material world exist without consciousness?

When Einstein Met Tagore
by Maria Popova

Collision and convergence in Truth and Beauty at the intersection of science and spirituality.

On July 14, 1930, Albert Einstein welcomed into his home on the outskirts of Berlin the Indian philosopher Rabindranath Tagore. The two proceeded to have one of the most stimulating, intellectually riveting conversations in history, exploring the age-old friction between science and religion. Science and the Indian Tradition: When Einstein Met Tagore recounts the historic encounter, amidst a broader discussion of the intellectual renaissance that swept India in the early twentieth century, germinating a curious osmosis of Indian traditions and secular Western scientific doctrine.

The following excerpt from one of Einstein and Tagore’s conversations dances between previously examined definitions of science, beauty, consciousness, and philosophy in a masterful meditation on the most fundamental questions of human existence.



EINSTEIN: Do you believe in the Divine as isolated from the world?

TAGORE: Not isolated. The infinite personality of Man comprehends the Universe. There cannot be anything that cannot be subsumed by the human personality, and this proves that the Truth of the Universe is human Truth.

I have taken a scientific fact to explain this — Matter is composed of protons and electrons, with gaps between them; but matter may seem to be solid. Similarly humanity is composed of individuals, yet they have their interconnection of human relationship, which gives living unity to man’s world. The entire universe is linked up with us in a similar manner, it is a human universe. I have pursued this thought through art, literature and the religious consciousness of man.

EINSTEIN: There are two different conceptions about the nature of the universe: (1) The world as a unity dependent on humanity. (2) The world as a reality independent of the human factor.

TAGORE: When our universe is in harmony with Man, the eternal, we know it as Truth, we feel it as beauty.

EINSTEIN: This is the purely human conception of the universe.

TAGORE: There can be no other conception. This world is a human world — the scientific view of it is also that of the scientific man. There is some standard of reason and enjoyment which gives it Truth, the standard of the Eternal Man whose experiences are through our experiences.

EINSTEIN: This is a realization of the human entity.

TAGORE: Yes, one eternal entity. We have to realize it through our emotions and activities. We realized the Supreme Man who has no individual limitations through our limitations. Science is concerned with that which is not confined to individuals; it is the impersonal human world of Truths. Religion realizes these Truths and links them up with our deeper needs; our individual consciousness of Truth gains universal significance. Religion applies values to Truth, and we know this Truth as good through our own harmony with it.

EINSTEIN: Truth, then, or Beauty is not independent of Man?

TAGORE: No.

EINSTEIN: If there would be no human beings any more, the Apollo of Belvedere would no longer be beautiful.

TAGORE: No.

EINSTEIN: I agree with regard to this conception of Beauty, but not with regard to Truth.

TAGORE: Why not? Truth is realized through man.

EINSTEIN: I cannot prove that my conception is right, but that is my religion.

TAGORE: Beauty is in the ideal of perfect harmony which is in the Universal Being; Truth the perfect comprehension of the Universal Mind. We individuals approach it through our own mistakes and blunders, through our accumulated experiences, through our illumined consciousness — how, otherwise, can we know Truth?

EINSTEIN: I cannot prove scientifically that Truth must be conceived as a Truth that is valid independent of humanity; but I believe it firmly. I believe, for instance, that the Pythagorean theorem in geometry states something that is approximately true, independent of the existence of man. Anyway, if there is a reality independent of man, there is also a Truth relative to this reality; and in the same way the negation of the first engenders a negation of the existence of the latter.

TAGORE: Truth, which is one with the Universal Being, must essentially be human, otherwise whatever we individuals realize as true can never be called truth – at least the Truth which is described as scientific and which only can be reached through the process of logic, in other words, by an organ of thoughts which is human. According to Indian Philosophy there is Brahman, the absolute Truth, which cannot be conceived by the isolation of the individual mind or described by words but can only be realized by completely merging the individual in its infinity. But such a Truth cannot belong to Science. The nature of Truth which we are discussing is an appearance – that is to say, what appears to be true to the human mind and therefore is human, and may be called maya or illusion.

EINSTEIN: So according to your conception, which may be the Indian conception, it is not the illusion of the individual, but of humanity as a whole.

TAGORE: The species also belongs to a unity, to humanity. Therefore the entire human mind realizes Truth; the Indian or the European mind meet in a common realization.

EINSTEIN: The word species is used in German for all human beings, as a matter of fact, even the apes and the frogs would belong to it.

TAGORE: In science we go through the discipline of eliminating the personal limitations of our individual minds and thus reach that comprehension of Truth which is in the mind of the Universal Man.

EINSTEIN: The problem begins whether Truth is independent of our consciousness.

TAGORE: What we call truth lies in the rational harmony between the subjective and objective aspects of reality, both of which belong to the super-personal man.

EINSTEIN: Even in our everyday life we feel compelled to ascribe a reality independent of man to the objects we use. We do this to connect the experiences of our senses in a reasonable way. For instance, if nobody is in this house, yet that table remains where it is.

TAGORE: Yes, it remains outside the individual mind, but not the universal mind. The table which I perceive is perceptible by the same kind of consciousness which I possess.

EINSTEIN: If nobody would be in the house the table would exist all the same — but this is already illegitimate from your point of view — because we cannot explain what it means that the table is there, independently of us.

Our natural point of view in regard to the existence of truth apart from humanity cannot be explained or proved, but it is a belief which nobody can lack — no primitive beings even. We attribute to Truth a super-human objectivity; it is indispensable for us, this reality which is independent of our existence and our experience and our mind — though we cannot say what it means.

TAGORE: Science has proved that the table as a solid object is an appearance and therefore that which the human mind perceives as a table would not exist if that mind were naught. At the same time it must be admitted that the fact, that the ultimate physical reality is nothing but a multitude of separate revolving centres of electric force, also belongs to the human mind.

In the apprehension of Truth there is an eternal conflict between the universal human mind and the same mind confined in the individual. The perpetual process of reconciliation is being carried on in our science, philosophy, in our ethics. In any case, if there be any Truth absolutely unrelated to humanity then for us it is absolutely non-existing.

It is not difficult to imagine a mind to which the sequence of things happens not in space but only in time like the sequence of notes in music. For such a mind such conception of reality is akin to the musical reality in which Pythagorean geometry can have no meaning. There is the reality of paper, infinitely different from the reality of literature. For the kind of mind possessed by the moth which eats that paper literature is absolutely non-existent, yet for Man’s mind literature has a greater value of Truth than the paper itself. In a similar manner if there be some Truth which has no sensuous or rational relation to the human mind, it will ever remain as nothing so long as we remain human beings.

EINSTEIN: Then I am more religious than you are!

TAGORE: My religion is in the reconciliation of the Super-personal Man, the universal human spirit, in my own individual being.

 

[idav]

[youtube]EraN4tujhdU[/youtube]
PL1 - TSC12 Deepak Chopra, Primary Consciousness versus Materialism - YouTube

We are aware or the problems of consciousness but Chopra needs to talk more with a neurologist. The problem of awareness cant be so easily solved by assigning it to reality. In fact this neurologist says consciousness is uniquely human.
[youtube]jTWmTJALe1w[/youtube]
Consciousness, Qualia, and Self (V.S. Ramachandran) - YouTube

 

[idav]

Can the material world exist without consciousness?

How would we come from a material world that has to exist first in our thoughts?

 

[crossfire]

How would we come from a material world that has to exist first in our thoughts?

Now you are getting into the realm of instincts and life.

 

[godnotgod]

How would we come from a material world that has to exist first in our thoughts?

Because we are the Infinite Consciousness itself, pretending to be something else in the cosmic game of Hide and Seek.

We did'nt come from a material world; we came from Consciousness which is projecting an appearance of reality we call the 'material' world. Evolution, biology, and social indoctrination create the state of Identification, in which we think our present manifestations are real. Awakening reveals our true nature and the state of Identification as fiction.

 

[Slapstick]

Because we are the Infinite Consciousness itself, pretending to be something else in the cosmic game of Hide and Seek.

We did'nt come from a material world; we came from Consciousness which is projecting an appearance of reality we call the 'material' world. Evolution, biology, and social indoctrination create the state of Identification, in which we think our present manifestations are real. Awakening reveals our true nature and the state of Identification as fiction.

You have never given an accurate assessment as to what consciousness is. However you did say this.

So even though there is pain when banging the head against the keyboard, your experience is still a sensory one which says 'real', when, if you had the same experience with an awakened consciousness, and while there is still pain, it is understood that the 'material' world is still an illusion, but one of a higher order than ordinary illusion, in which, if the keyboard were a visual projection, there would be no physicality to the experience.

You seem to contradict a lot of the things you are saying and tend to be going around in circles.

Also you were talking about dream states and all other types of crazy stuff. This is what a REM sleep looks like when someone wakes up who still thinks they are dreaming.

[youtube]grEypMDqvTE[/youtube]

 

[godnotgod]

We are aware or the problems of consciousness but Chopra needs to talk more with a neurologist. The problem of awareness cant be so easily solved by assigning it to reality. In fact this neurologist says consciousness is uniquely human.

...and Rama needs to talk more with a mystic.

Within the context of his discussion, it appears that consciousness is 'uniquely human', that is to say, exhibits the existence of a 'self'. But what is the self but a fiction? A self-created idea. There is no "I" which feels the pin prick; there is only 'Ouch!' At that very moment, there is no experiencer of the pain. The brain only registers pain. In the next split second, "I" comes into play and says: 'Oh. I pricked myself with a pin', and it appears that there exists an experiencer of the experience, when, in reality, you and the experience are one and the same.

There is no river that flows; there is only flowing water.

Excellent video, BTW. Thanks.

 

[godnotgod]

You have never given an accurate assessment as to what consciousness is. However you did say this.

Originally Posted by godnotgod

So even though there is pain when banging the head against the keyboard, your experience is still a sensory one which says 'real', when, if you had the same experience with an awakened consciousness, and while there is still pain, it is understood that the 'material' world is still an illusion, but one of a higher order than ordinary illusion, in which, if the keyboard were a visual projection, there would be no physicality to the experience.

To be clear, I am saying that, instead of the material world being a projection of consciousness from a higher level, in which we do feel pain when we bang our head on a keyboard, there would, of course, be no pain if the keyboard were an ordinary illusion, such as a mirage.

 

[godnotgod]

Also you were talking about dream states and all other types of crazy stuff. This is what a REM sleep looks like when someone wakes up who still thinks they are dreaming.

No, he thinks the dream is real, which is so powerful, it carries over onto the next level of wakefulness, until running into the wall wakes him up. His body is still present on both levels.

This is a good example as to how consciousness can direct the physical world.

In terms of Higher Consciousness, what occurs many times is that one awakens from the third into the fourth level during some extremely powerful life event.

If we, as humans, were truly awake on this (third) level of 'reality' in the sense that we know what we're doing, we would act in accordance with wakefulness and good sense. But it is clear that we do not, as evinced by the tragedy of human history. Instead, we are driven by things which keep us asleep and dreaming while seemingly awake, namely the three addictions, which are Power, Sensation, and Security, in various combinations, which are empty goals.

Can you tell me what 'crazy' things you are referring to?

 

[Slapstick]

No, he thinks the dream is real, which is so powerful, it carries over onto the next level of wakefulness, until running into the wall wakes him up. His body is still present on both levels.

This is a good example as to how consciousness can direct the physical world.

In terms of Higher Consciousness, what occurs many times is that one awakens from the third into the fourth level during some extremely powerful life event.

If we, as humans, were truly awake on this (third) level of 'reality' in the sense that we know what we're doing, we would act in accordance with wakefulness and good sense. But it is clear that we do not, as evinced by the tragedy of human history. Instead, we are driven by things which keep us asleep and dreaming while seemingly awake, namely the three addictions, which are Power, Sensation, and Security, in various combinations, which are empty goals.

Can you tell me what 'crazy' things you are referring to?

No! It is all starting to make perfectly good sense now. So you are saying humans, not all, but some, I don't know how it would be possible to even quantify that number, act on impulse without really thinking about what they are doing before doing it? Much like the dog in the video?

 

[godnotgod]

No! It is all starting to make perfectly good sense now. So you are saying humans... act on impulse without really thinking about what they are doing before doing it? Much like the dog in the video?

No. It's because we think, and therefore create the idea of a false self, an experiencer of the experience, as well as assuming that the world is real, that we remain asleep, while thinking we are fully awake. IOW, we think we are a separate ego acting upon what we only think is a physical world. The awakened mind is not directed by an ego, but by universal consciousness.

It is exactly because we think, because we reason, that we blunder. Why? Because the thinking mind creates concepts it superimposes over reality in an attempt to make reality conform to those concepts. Couple this with an ego full of desire for the acquisition of fame, wealth, and security, and we have the world as it is today.

Man's dream state is further kept as it is by other sleeping people who find security in numbers. The advertising industry spends billions in order to keep people asleep and buying their products. Governments keep people asleep via political propaganda. Our parents and teachers pass on the old paradigms which are accepted as valid purely on authority. Biology keeps us asleep by focusing on survival, conflict, and dominance. One of the symbols for Zen is the salmon, who, against all odds, somehow makes it to his spawning grounds. Likewise, in spite of the reinforcements that keep man asleep, some do awaken to the true nature of Reality.

If you don't know you are asleep, just as when you don't know you are dreaming when physically asleep, you will think and act as if fully awake. It takes awakening into the next level of wakefulness to show you that you were, indeed, just living in a dream state, just as awakening from dream sleep tells you instantly that you were dreaming. Understand that our true nature is always present, just under the surface, nudging us gently toward awakening. That is why, at some point, we begin to feel dissatisfied with our conditioned existence, feeling there is something more to existence than living and dying. But the conditioned mind is powerful, and continually fights to keep us conditioned, and to make us believe we are awake and in control. The ego does not want to die, which it must when the true Self comes into play.

People have nervous breakdowns when the conceptual mind comes to a head and in full conflict with Reality. Nothing seems to work any longer, because it is all a fabrication, an imitation of life. Life no longer makes any 'sense'.

Man used to operate from impulse, which is more of a direct connection to his true nature. Eat when hungry; sleep when tired.

The wave does not do the ocean; the ocean does the wave.

 

[Slapstick]

No. It's because we think, and therefore create the idea of a false self, an experiencer of the experience, as well as assuming that the world is real, that we remain asleep, while thinking we are fully awake. IOW, we think we are a separate ego acting upon what we only think is a physical world. The awakened mind is not directed by an ego, but by universal consciousness.

We nothing, there you go with that false dichotomy stuff again. You don’t speak for every other person that lives on this planet. You can only speak for yourself. You don’t speak for nature and you don’t speak universe either. What does it even mean for there to be a universal consciousness? As if the universe is conscious of something. What exactly is the universe conscious of?

It is exactly because we think, because we reason, that we blunder. Why? Because the thinking mind creates concepts it superimposes over reality in an attempt to make reality conform to those concepts. Couple this with an ego full of desire for the acquisition of fame, wealth, and security, and we have the world as it is today.

Man's dream state is further kept as it is by other sleeping people who find security in numbers. The advertising industry spends billions in order to keep people asleep and buying their products. Governments keep people asleep via political propaganda. Our parents and teachers pass on the old paradigms which are accepted as valid purely on authority. Biology keeps us asleep by focusing on survival, conflict, and dominance. One of the symbols for Zen is the salmon, who, against all odds, somehow makes it to his spawning grounds. Likewise, in spite of the reinforcements that keep man asleep, some do awaken to the true nature of Reality.

If you don't know you are asleep, just as when you don't know you are dreaming when physically asleep, you will think and act as if fully awake. It takes awakening into the next level of wakefulness to show you that you were, indeed, just living in a dream state, just as awakening from dream sleep tells you instantly that you were dreaming. Understand that our true nature is always present, just under the surface, nudging us gently toward awakening. That is why, at some point, we begin to feel dissatisfied with our conditioned existence, feeling there is something more to existence than living and dying. But the conditioned mind is powerful, and continually fights to keep us conditioned, and to make us believe we are awake and in control. The ego does not want to die, which it must when the true Self comes into play.

People have nervous breakdowns when the conceptual mind comes to a head and in full conflict with Reality. Nothing seems to work any longer, because it is all a fabrication, an imitation of life. Life no longer makes any 'sense'.

Man used to operate from impulse, which is more of a direct connection to his true nature. Eat when hungry; sleep when tired.

The wave does not do the ocean; the ocean does the wave.

It is the Age of Information and approaching the era of knowledge. I believe in the power of knowledge and think people have brains and should use them for a reason, not for whimsical thinking. If I wanted to listen to whimsical blabber I would go to church. The world doesn’t run on whim either. If it did it would be a giant mess. It didn’t work in the past, it won’t work in the present, nor will it work in the future.

If anyone had to sit and listen to this type of stuff an entire generation would be doomed. This next level of awaken states is a bunch of malarkey. If the universe was conscious we would have walking plants, flying fish and talking rocks.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

As I explained in the previous post, the thread's question is nonsensical to begin with.

In the example of Plato's Cave, the prisoner who went topside to view the Sun has no way of presenting any evidence whatsoever. It is a direct experience of Reality, while the other prisoners are experiencing a concocted reality they believe to be real. The only way the other prisoners can verify that what the first prisoner is saying is to go see for themselves.

However, there are other ways of presenting the argument which do not require factual evidence, again, which cannot be presented due to the nature of Higher Consciousness, which is an experience outside the realm of Reason, Logic, or Analysis. That does not make it irrational, but simply non-rationally based.

Think about the irrational nature of your request: you want me to present factual evidence about an experience of the non-material world, when I should be requesting evidence from you that the world you call 'material' is real. Just because it interacts with your sensory awareness does not make it real. The senses are known to deceive us. That is precisely why they must be transcended so reality can be apprehended via another kind of conscious awareness; one more reliable than the senses; one that is pure and pristine, and unconditioned. When the Emperor of China asked Bodhidharma, he great Indian monk, 'what of the holy scriptures?', Bodhidharma replied: 'no holiness is clear, like space.' Higher Consciousness is about seeing clearly into the nature of Reality, without thought. Reason and Logic are in the realm of thought, of the mind, which are distortions between Consciousness and Reality.

I have shown that some of the logical arguments of science operate on various assumptions, primarily that the material world is real. However, science itself, via Quantum Physics, shows us that it is not so 'real' after all. There are only two possibilities, actually three: that the material world is real; that it is an illusion; that it is neither.

It may be of some use to you to watch the video prior to this post.

I don't lack understanding of what you are trying to convey. I am simply pointing out to you that it isn't an argument or debate point. Its just a statement. I don't think there is any way to debate for or against it if we decide that there is no evidence for it either way.

 

[gnostic]

This is all rubbish.

Now you are saying the universe has consciousness.

You seemed to have a different definition for consciousness.

Define consciousness.

Then explain how this "higher" consciousness than other consciousness?

How is my consciousness of self-awareness, of seeing, hearing, feeling are nothing more than illusion, but this supposed high consciousness can perceive this so-called "true" reality?

To me, you are just playing word-game, where everything that I perceived to be real, but you are saying it is illusion, so when I say up, you say down, then when I say left you'd say right, I see green, but you would say red, etc. It is just never ending of opposites.

And second, when you make a positive claim of what you believe or think especially of the divine or supernatural, then you should have to provide evidences to support such claim, otherwise your claim is nothing more than wishful thinking.

And claiming of universe being conscious and self-aware, then you would have to show that what you say to be true and it is just more than your belief.

Belief and knowing are 2 different things. It is best when knowing and believing go hand-in-hand, but so far all your posts only state what you believe in.

 

[godnotgod]

I don't lack understanding of what you are trying to convey. I am simply pointing out to you that it isn't an argument or debate point. Its just a statement. I don't think there is any way to debate for or against it if we decide that there is no evidence for it either way.

Well, just to begin with, let's take the topic question:

"What came before the Big Bang?"

Here, I am using the evidence that the BB itself is supposed to provide, to show that the question is fallacious. The BB theory states that Space-Time began at that precise moment, but the topic's question is saying that Time already was in place.

So, utilizing the same logic science would use, which I claim is evidence, I can embark upon a different path of inquiry, the logical implication being that the BB did NOT occur in Space-Time, and that Space-Time is nothing more than a concept.

IOW, if the BB did not occur in Space-Time, then it occurred in not-Space-Time. What is the state of not-Space-Time?

If I want you to see something in which the evidence is the thing itself, for example, if I wordlessly point to the moon, and if, instead you turn to my pointing finger and question on what grounds I am pointing, you will never see the moon.

The point of any debate is to get someone to see what your point is, whether via evidence in the case of knowledge, or by pointing something out, in the case of seeing the way things are. I am not arguing a 'side' of an argument; I am only trying to point out that there is a view other than the conventional ones in which we use the rational mind, rather than the seeing mind.

 

[Mycroft]

Guys. I am dead. I am done. Deadbeat. Down. My head has been rent asunder by this consciousness-not-conscioussness-illusiory-space-time thingy!

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Well, just to begin with, let's take the topic question:

"What came before the Big Bang?"

Here, I am using the evidence that the BB itself is supposed to provide, to show that the question is fallacious. The BB theory states that Space-Time began at that precise moment, but the topic's question is saying that Time already was in place.

So, utilizing the same logic science would use, which I claim is evidence, I can embark upon a different path of inquiry, the logical implication being that the BB did NOT occur in Space-Time, and that Space-Time is nothing more than a concept.

IOW, if the BB did not occur in Space-Time, then it occurred in not-Space-Time. What is the state of not-Space-Time?

You see my argument?

I get that its nonsensical kind of topic to begin with but I was referring specifically to how the back and forth you've been having for the past few pages has mostly been fruitless because it has devolved into a situation where you are arguing from a point that is not only unsuported by evidence but by your own personal claim, impossible to support by evidence.

I'm not saying your wrong or that your position isn't valid. I'm simply saying that I don' think its possible to debate the position other than simply rehashing the same sentences over and over.