What came before the Big Bang?

[captainbryce]

The word supernatural is a placeholder for things people don't understand. It's not an actual logically defined argument. It's like using the word "magic" for a missing variable in an argument.

I've already said that I was not intending to make an "argument" regarding the term supernatural. I am simply explaining to you what it means, and why (based on said definition) attempting to refute it with known science is futile.

You can link to laws if you want- the laws of physics break down at the moment of the Big Bang, and become no longer applicable, which is why nobody yet has an explanation.

That is the point I am making.

So for you to say that the universe can't possibly have non-causal properties

It's not ME who says that, it's most astrophysicists who say that!

but a supernatural being can have non-causal properties, is a non-argument.

It wasn't intended to be an argument. I am not attempting to prove anything to you. I'm simply explaining why (according to known science) the idea that the universe has a non-causal beginning is not logical, nor consistent with known science. The scientific explanation for how/why a supernatural entity can have a non-causal beginning is not required (because it's supernatural). But a scientific explanation for a natural phenomenon (e.g., The Big Bang) is required, otherwise it becomes MAGIC!

The Big Bang is more than an event- it is a continuation.

No it isn't. It was an event! The effects of the Big Bang are the resulting continuation of it. But the Big Bang is not still happening! It happened (past test) 14 billion years ago.

Spacetime continues to expand, which can be observed. The Big Bang itself is merely the starting point of such expansion.

Correct, the Big Bang WAS the starting point of such expansion.

So like gravity, there are facts of observation, and a theory to explain it.

No, there are observations that support the theory that a Big Bang happened. And there are multiple, competing theories as to how it happened. But there is no theory that explains WHY it happened that is consistent with our understanding of physics.

Saying that it's "only a theory" misses the point that a theory is the highest level of certainty in science for such a complex thing.

And pointing this fact out misses the point that the theory fails to answer the most basic question of "why it happened in the first place".

 

[The Wizard]

I dont see any almighty father anywhere. I was joking.

There is only one time known. That is the time we live in now that was created when time and space was created together in the birth of our universe.

No other time is known.




Correct





Im with you on that.

I know you were joking. I remember debating something with you quite a while back. But, if I may, I don't think time and space were created together. The Universe exploded out along with everything else and then man came along to measure the going-ons in it and his awareness in it, in which he calls, time. The Universe is just what it is and does its thing. I don't think time is even relevant to it. But, as usual, I could be wrong... Time wasn't created cause its just a measurement of the creation itself.

Mankind created the concept called, time.. And all he will probably ever know is his own Big Bang time clock... IMO

 

[outhouse]

I know you were joking. I remember debating something with you quite a while back. But, if I may, I don't think time and space were created together. The Universe exploded out along with everything else and then man came along to measure the going-ons in it and his awareness in it, in which he calls, time. The Universe is just what it is and does its thing. I don't think time is even relevant to it. But, as usual, I could be wrong... Time wasn't created cause its just a measurement of the creation itself.

Mankind created the concept called, time.. And all he will probably ever know is his own Big Bang time clock... IMO

Sorry bud, space and time were hammered out almost a 100 years ago with Einstein's ToR. The math is all there, making it black and white. I tried reading it one night, and it was so over my head I stopped after a few pages.

 

[Ouroboros]

Sorry bud, space and time were hammered out almost a 100 years ago with Einstein's ToR. The math is all there, making it black and white. I tried reading it one night, and it was so over my head I stopped after a few pages.

With ToR's hammer?

 

[outhouse]

With ToR's hammer?

Theory of Relativity

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Theory of Relativity

I think he was being facetious.

 

[Ouroboros]

Theory of Relativity

I know. It was a joke.

 

[ruffen]

What happened before the Big Bang (before spacetime began) was maybe the same stuff that is constantly happening north of the North Pole and south of the South Pole here on Earth - it also is happening all the time on Earth's 9th natural satellite which has the shape of a sphere-shaped cube with exactly 3.253 edges, and an orbital period of -3 days. But I believe the answer is to be found on Earth's lowest mountain.

In other words, not only may there not be an answer, the question migh be meaningless.

 

[idav]

What happened before the Big Bang (before spacetime began) was maybe the same stuff that is constantly happening north of the North Pole and south of the South Pole here on Earth - it also is happening all the time on Earth's 9th natural satellite which has the shape of a sphere-shaped cube with exactly 3.253 edges, and an orbital period of -3 days. But I believe the answer is to be found on Earth's lowest mountain.

In other words, not only may there not be an answer, the question migh be meaningless.

I knew there was a reason to hate long division answers containing infinite decimal places.

 

[The Wizard]

Sorry bud, space and time were hammered out almost a 100 years ago with Einstein's ToR. The math is all there, making it black and white. I tried reading it one night, and it was so over my head I stopped after a few pages.

Care to elaborate? I don't see it as anything but a measurement of existence or the Big Bang. What else is there?

 

[metis]

what do you mean by "go back into infinity"?

That subatomic particles may have always were around in one form or another.

 

[Galen.Iksnudnard]

Stephen Hawking gives a good explanation here:

The Beginning of Time - Stephen Hawking

At this time, the Big Bang, all the matter in the universe, would have been on top of itself. The density would have been infinite. It would have been what is called, a singularity. At a singularity, all the laws of physics would have broken down. This means that the state of the universe, after the Big Bang, will not depend on anything that may have happened before, because the deterministic laws that govern the universe will break down in the Big Bang. The universe will evolve from the Big Bang, completely independently of what it was like before. Even the amount of matter in the universe, can be different to what it was before the Big Bang, as the Law of Conservation of Matter, will break down at the Big Bang.

Since events before the Big Bang have no observational consequences, one may as well cut them out of the theory, and say that time began at the Big Bang. Events before the Big Bang, are simply not defined, because there's no way one could measure what happened at them.

 

[Chalant]

We have no way of knowing this, don't we. Its loke saying what came before god, that might be a better explanation. Or the cyclic 'big bang and bug crunch' theory.

 

[johnhanks]

Or the cyclic 'big bang and bug crunch' theory.

Forget the bug crunch theory. God hates people who tread on His beetles.

 

[nazz]

Forget the bug crunch theory. God hates people who tread on His beetles.

Ah, he's a beetles fan then

 

[outhouse]

Care to elaborate? I don't see it as anything but a measurement of existence or the Big Bang. What else is there?

Are you trying to say there is no link to space and time?


If you are, you have a lot of reading to do.

 

[gnostic]

My logic goes with the Big Bang and an eventual Big Crunch. And then infinite cycles of it, eternally.

That cosmology of repeated cycles of Big Bang & Big Crunch is called the Big Bounce. Sort of like this: :tigger:

Oh, my Pooh! I've just got an epiphany. Tigger is the creator of all! :tigger:

All hail, Tigger, god of the mighty bounces! :bow:

:tribal:

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Does the 4th dimension have something to do with what we're talking about?

 

[idav]

Does the 4th dimension have something to do with what we're talking about?

Could be. I've heard an idea once that the fourth dimension is just the third dimension stacked onto itself infinitely. Similar to trying to get from 2D to 3D.

 

[gnostic]

Does the 4th dimension have something to do with what we're talking about?

Isn't the 4th dimension "time"?