What causes people to choose what they choose?

[Nimos]

Well that's the whole point.
You don't believe in God, yet you presume to know that God has not "experienced" our future in a similar way.

Again, it has nothing to do with God.

We still have to discuss things based on what is logical possible. Otherwise we might as well, argue that God could make squared circle if he wanted. It makes no sense.

I have no idea what you are talking about. It is the mechanism of knowing that I refer to, and that is all that is relevant.

There is a difference. I know im going to die at some point, I know that is the future coming for me. But it makes a huge difference whether I know exactly how and when its going to happen, whether I could prevent it now and change it etc. with perfect accuracy. We as humans can't do that, but God can. That is why it is not the same comparing a time travelers ability to travel time, with what God is said to be capable of.

 

[Tiberius]

Sorry, I made a mistake, to err is human.
I am now going to correct my mistake.

If God knows we will choose A, then we will Choose A (and we won't choose B or C).
If God knows we will choose B, then we will Choose B (and we won't choose A or C).
If God knows we will choose C, then we will Choose (and we won't choose A or B).

The bits I highlighted in blue are the bits that show that we won't choose anything other than what God knows we will choose.

We are able to choose A, B, or C because we have free will to choose, and whatever we choose will be what God has always known we would choose.

Okay, let's take one of those examples...

If God knows we will choose A, then we will Choose A (and we won't choose B or C).

Now tell me, WHY won't we choose B or C? What's preventing us from choosing B or C?

 

[muhammad_isa]

We still have to discuss things based on what is logical possible..

Not exactly.
It is not logically possible to be able to travel to the future and back, if one thinks it logical that time cannot be violated.

For me, I see it as logically possible for God to have already experienced our futures, while we have not.

 

[Trailblazer]

I know you think it is, but it really isn't

I know you think it isn't but it really is patently absurd and completely illogical to say (as the guy in the glasses said) that God's knowledge that Billy would be a thief made Billy a thief!.

The issue is that even if God were present outside our time and could see past, present and future all at the same time, you run into problems. Because you add limitations to God.

God would no longer know everything, he wouldn't know which color car you would buy, he would simply be able to see your future, if you bought a red car or If you bought a green car... etc. But until you actually bought the car, God is completely clueless about which color car you will end up buying and what that future would look like. Which means that the foreknowledge of God is severely limited.

So as I see it that wouldn't work either.

The problem is that you do not understand the nature of God.
Just because God does not exist in TIME as we know it and measure it in our world that does not mean God does not know what is happening in our world where time exists. God is all-knowing and omnipresent so God knows EVERYTHING that is happening EVERYWHERE including what is happening in our time zone.

Ok, I think you misunderstood it.

Future = 2
This is the one correct future God sees, NO ONE chose this number, it is simply how the future looks, if you combined all events in the Universe, you buying a car, war in Europe, all positions of every single atom in the Universe etc. From this moment in time to a future point in time, what you will get is 2, it is simply the state everything is at in the future, if we should give it a number.

Present to future = X
This means that every single atoms, whatever people do.. etc. in the period between now and the future.

If X doesn't equal 2, then we didn't end up in the future that God sees. AGAIN NO ONE CHOSE THE NUMBER 2, it simply represent how the future looks like as God sees it.

So if God have perfect foreknowledge X must equal 2 which means that all "choices", atoms and events, must occur in such a way that X ends up being equal 2.

Does that make sense?

No, it makes no sense.

Lets say that in the this future God sees, you buy a red car, the result would be 2. If you bought a green car... X would be 1.9999998 or whatever. And therefore the future would be. 1.9999998 = 2 and therefore not the future that God sees, so you can't but a green car.

I think you are making what is simple complicated.
Whatever color of car you buy will be the color of car that God has always known you would buy. You have free will so you can CHOOSE to buy any color of car you want to buy and whatever color you buy will be the color God has always known you will buy.

This is so confusing, because now you are agreeing with me from what I can see

Why do you think that? If you think that then you are agreeing that we are able to choose A, B, or C because we have free will to choose, and whatever we choose will be what God has always known we would choose.

 

[Nimos]

Not exactly.
It is not logically possible to be able to travel to the future and back, if one thinks it logical that time cannot be violated.

Well I agree with that, I weren't promoting the idea of time travel, it was just the example used in the other post. So no objection there.

For me, I see it as logically possible for God to have already experienced our futures, while we have not.

Well it could be, it depends how it works. Im not saying that, if God existed, that he couldn't possible have a way of doing something like it, but I just don't see it being perfect foreknowledge, I don't think that would work.

 

[Nimos]

No, it makes no sense.

Ok look at it like this.

Right now at this very moment as you read this post, the whole Universe is in given a state. So the moon is where it is orbiting Earth, the time is what it is where you live, all atoms are where they are etc. So imagine you took a "screenshot" of the whole Universe at this very moment and froze it in time. That would be state that the Universe is in right now. And instead of having to mention all the different things as I just did, we simply refer to this "screenshot" or state of the Universe as "1", this is just to simplify it.

So we can refer to the current state like this:
The current state of the Universe = "1"

Likewise we now imagine going 10 years into the future and as we just did, the Universe and all the atoms, moon etc. is in another state, for instance the war in Ukraine might be over, maybe there is another war or whatever happened in these 10 years, so again to simplify it we just refer to this future state as "2".

Future state of the Universe = "2"

We obviously don't know what things will be like in 10 years, we just know that they are different from what they are now. But God knows exactly what state "2" looks like and also what state "1" looks like and all the states in between these.

But somehow we need state "1" to end up looking like state "2" over a period of 10 years, to make what God knows true, but since we don't know the states in between, we can simply refer to it as X.

Therefore we can write it like this:
X = 2 or maybe more correct X => 2 Meaning that X goes towards 2, because that is the state we need to end up with.

But for X to do that, we need all atoms, the moon and everything else over a period of 10 years to be exactly "2".

And the only way that can happen, is if X becomes 2. Which means that we can't have atoms or the moon be in wrong positions, because in that case they wouldn't do that, which would make God wrong. So all the things in this 10 year period, must behave exactly as God knows they will so they end up being 2.

Just look at the numbers and X as taking a screenshot of the universe.

So imagine every single day for 10 years (just to simplify it) that you took a screenshot of the Universe and eventually when the 10 years have passed it would look exactly as in state "2" above as God knew it would.

Does that make sense?

 

[Trailblazer]

Ok look at it like this.

Right now at this very moment as you read this post, the whole Universe is in given a state. So the moon is where it is orbiting Earth, the time is what it is where you live, all atoms are where they are etc. So imagine you took a "screenshot" of the whole Universe at this very moment and froze it in time. That would be state that the Universe is in right now. And instead of having to mention all the different things as I just did, we simply refer to this "screenshot" or state of the Universe as "1", this is just to simplify it.

So we can refer to the current state like this:
The current state of the Universe = "1"

Likewise we now imagine going 10 years into the future and as we just did, the Universe and all the atoms, moon etc. is in another state, for instance the war in Ukraine might be over, maybe there is another war or whatever happened in these 10 years, so again to simplify it we just refer to this future state as "2".

Future state of the Universe = "2"

We obviously don't know what things will be like in 10 years, we just know that they are different from what they are now. But God knows exactly what state "2" looks like and also what state "1" looks like and all the states in between these.

But somehow we need state "1" to end up looking like state "2" over a period of 10 years, to make what God knows true, but since we don't know the states in between, we can simply refer to it as X.

Therefore we can write it like this:
X = 2 or maybe more correct X => 2 Meaning that X goes towards 2, because that is the state we need to end up with.

But for X to do that, we need all atoms, the moon and everything else over a period of 10 years to be exactly "2".

And the only way that can happen, is if X becomes 2. Which means that we can't have atoms or the moon be in wrong positions, because in that case they wouldn't do that, which would make God wrong. So all the things in this 10 year period, must behave exactly as God knows they will so they end up being 2.

Just look at the numbers and X as taking a screenshot of the universe.

So imagine every single day for 10 years (just to simplify it) that you took a screenshot of the Universe and eventually when the 10 years have passed it would look exactly as in state "2" above as God knew it would.

Does that make sense?

So all the things in this 10 year period, must behave exactly as God knows they will so they end up being 2.
Yes, that makes sense, but what is the point you are trying to make?

 

[Nimos]

So all the things in this 10 year period, must behave exactly as God knows they will so they end up being 2.
Yes, that makes sense, but what is the point you are trying to make?

The point being, that in this state "2", if God see you having a red car. At some point during these 10 years, you will buy a red car. God's knowledge of the future doesn't change, when you go out to buy the car. So even though you might think that there is an equal chance or you having free will in deciding which color car you want to buy, it is not, because state "2" as God knows it, say that you will buy a red car.

That is why it is an illusion of choice, if someone knows the future to perfection.

This is also the argument, the guy in the video with glasses try to make with Billy. God knew that Billy would end up stealing, before Billy were even born, so he didn't have a choice about it, otherwise God would have been wrong about Billy. Therefore he reach the conclusion that if Billy had no choice, then it can only be God that decided that Billy should steal.

Im not 100% sure I agree with that being the only option, because to me the whole idea of knowing the future to perfection seem to be a broken idea from a logical point of view. The reason im not sure, is because it is extremely complex to imagine what the hell it would be like to know everything, but something simply doesn't seem to add up in this whole idea as I see it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay, let's take one of those examples...

If God knows we will choose A, then we will Choose A (and we won't choose B or C).

Now tell me, WHY won't we choose B or C? What's preventing us from choosing B or C?

Nothing is preventing us from choosing B or C.
I said we will choose A if God knows we will choose A, I did not say anything is preventing us from choosing B or C.

We can choose B or C because we have free will to choose, and if we choose B or C, B or C will be what God has always known we would choose.

 

[muhammad_isa]

God knew that Billy would end up stealing, before Billy were even born, so he didn't have a choice about it, otherwise God would have been wrong about Billy..

I've already explained why that is wrong.
While Billy might not have been born as far as we are concerned in this universe, for God, it has all happened already. It is not that he preordained it all.

OK .. you might not find that belief rational .. but that is what we believe.
i.e. God's perspective of events in time are different from ours

 

[Tiberius]

Nothing is preventing us from choosing B or C.
I said we will choose A if God knows we will choose A, I did not say anything is preventing us from choosing B or C.

We can choose B or C because we have free will to choose, and if we choose B or C, B or C will be what God has always known we would choose.

So ON THE CONDITION that God knows we will choose A, we don't choose B or C. But what's stopping us from choosing B or C?

 

[Nimos]

I've already explained why that is wrong.
While Billy might not have been born as far as we are concerned in this universe, for God, it has all happened already. It is not that he preordained it all.

OK .. you might not find that belief rational .. but that is what we believe.
i.e. God's perspective of events in time are different from ours

I don't, because I don't even know what it means. So for clarification, does Billy have free will according to you then? Because I don't see how that is possible and what relevance it has whether we know if Billy is born or not?

 

[Tiberius]

What causes people to choose what they choose?
Is free will the cause of human actions or is there another cause?
If free will is not the cause, what is the cause human actions?

Free will.

Bear in mind I am an atheist and am answering this from the point of view that there is no God at all.

(Please note that many things happen to us in this world that were not chosen by us and we are compelled to endure them (e.g., death, sickness, job losses, injuries and misfortunes). I believe those are fated/predestined by God, but that is another subject altogether.)

That leads to problems. If God has predestined that I will die in my sleep aged 87, then I don't have the free will to take my own life at the age 0f 50.

Position A: Some people say that if God is omniscient and knows everything that will ever happen in the future that means we do not have free will because we can only make one choice (x), the choice God knows we will make. If we can only make one choice (x) what is causing us to make that choice? Is God’s foreknowledge of what we will choose (x) forcing us to choose x? If God’s foreknowledge is not forcing us to choose x, what is causing us to choose x?

Position B: It is my contention that God knows the one choice we will make and we will make that choice, but before we make that choice we have free will to choose from more than one option (x, y, or z). Whatever we choose will be what God knows we will choose because God has perfect foreknowledge. As such, whether we had chosen x, y or z, God would have known which one of those we were going to choose.

Which position makes the most sense to you? Do you hold position A or B, or do you hold another position?

Please explain your position and explain why you hold it.[/quote]

I hold to position A.

IF (and note that IF there) there is a God who has 100% accurate knowledge of the future, then I am bound to do what he knows I will do. I CAN NOT choose anything different. Since there is only one possible outcome - what God has foreseen - then there is no choice. Choice, after all, requires several possible options.

 

[Trailblazer]

The point being, that in this state "2", if God see you having a red car. At some point during these 10 years, you will buy a red car. God's knowledge of the future doesn't change, when you go out to buy the car. So even though you might think that there is an equal chance or you having free will in deciding which color car you want to buy, it is not, because state "2" as God knows it, say that you will buy a red car.

That is why it is an illusion of choice, if someone knows the future to perfection.

If God foresaw that you will buy a red car you will buy a red car, not because God foresaw it but because you chose to buy it. God simply foresaw what color car you would choose to buy.

If you had chosen to buy a blue car or a green car, those would be cars that God had foreseen.

This is also the argument, the guy in the video with glasses try to make with Billy. God knew that Billy would end up stealing, before Billy were even born, so he didn't have a choice about it, otherwise God would have been wrong about Billy. Therefore he reach the conclusion that if Billy had no choice, then it can only be God that decided that Billy should steal.

Billy had a choice to steal or not to steal. God knew that Billy would end up stealing because God knew that Billy would choose to steal, but if Billy had chosen not to steal God would have known that was what Billy would choose.

The point is that God's foreknowledge that Billy would steal did not CAUSE Billy to steal.

Im not 100% sure I agree with that being the only option, because to me the whole idea of knowing the future to perfection seem to be a broken idea from a logical point of view. The reason im not sure, is because it is extremely complex to imagine what the hell it would be like to know everything, but something simply doesn't seem to add up in this whole idea as I see it.

It probably does not make sense to you how God could be all-knowing because God is not subject to logic. Everything in this physical world is subject to the rules of logic but the rules of logic do not apply to God. God is and has always been immensely exalted beyond all that can ever be recounted or perceived, everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men. Such an entity can never be subject to human logic and it would be illogical to think so. It is absurd to expect to be able to encapsulate an infinite God with the finite human mind.

 

[Trailblazer]

So ON THE CONDITION that God knows we will choose A, we don't choose B or C. But what's stopping us from choosing B or C?

Nothing is stopping us from choosing B or C.

 

[Trailblazer]

Free will.

Bear in mind I am an atheist and am answering this from the point of view that there is no God at all.

It makes no difference if there is a God or not, it is exactly the same, because God does not prevent us from choosing with our free will... After all, God is the one who gave us free will to choose!

That leads to problems. If God has predestined that I will die in my sleep aged 87, then I don't have the free will to take my own life at the age 0f 50.

No, you would not have free will to take your own life in that case. As I said before, you do not have free will if something was predestined by God, but that is another subject we were not going to discuss right now.

Position A: Some people say that if God is omniscient and knows everything that will ever happen in the future that means we do not have free will because we can only make one choice (x), the choice God knows we will make. If we can only make one choice (x) what is causing us to make that choice? Is God’s foreknowledge of what we will choose (x) forcing us to choose x? If God’s foreknowledge is not forcing us to choose x, what is causing us to choose x?

Position B: It is my contention that God knows the one choice we will make and we will make that choice, but before we make that choice we have free will to choose from more than one option (x, y, or z). Whatever we choose will be what God knows we will choose because God has perfect foreknowledge. As such, whether we had chosen x, y or z, God would have known which one of those we were going to choose.

Which position makes the most sense to you? Do you hold position A or B, or do you hold another position?

Please explain your position and explain why you hold it.

I hold to position A.

IF (and note that IF there) there is a God who has 100% accurate knowledge of the future, then I am bound to do what he knows I will do. I CAN NOT choose anything different. Since there is only one possible outcome - what God has foreseen - then there is no choice. Choice, after all, requires several possible options.

I hold to position B.

God knows the one choice we will make and we will make that choice, but before we make that choice we have free will to choose from more than one option (x, y, or z). Whatever we choose will be what God knows we will choose because God has perfect foreknowledge. As such, whether we had chosen x, y or z, God would have known which one of those we were going to choose.

 

[Tiberius]

Nothing is stopping us from choosing B or C.

But God knows we will choose A.

If God KNOWS I will choose A, how can I still choose B?

 

[Tiberius]

It makes no difference if there is a God or not, it is exactly the same, because God does not prevent us from choosing with our free will... After all, God is the one who gave us free will to choose!

It does make a difference, because if there is a being that knows what will happen in the future with 100% accuracy, then that requires that we have no free will.

No, you would not have free will to take your own life in that case. As I said before, you do not have free will if something was predestined by God, but that is another subject we were not going to discuss right now.

Ah, but I also would not have the free will to do anything that would lead to me not dying at age 87, would I?

I hold to position B.

God knows the one choice we will make and we will make that choice, but before we make that choice we have free will to choose from more than one option (x, y, or z). Whatever we choose will be what God knows we will choose because God has perfect foreknowledge. As such, whether we had chosen x, y or z, God would have known which one of those we were going to choose.

Here we go again...

If God knows the outcome of the choice before we make it, and God can never be wrong, then any other option we THINK we have is not actually an option at all. There is one option only, and if there is only one option, there is no choice. The illusion of choice is not actually choice.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..if there is a being that knows what will happen in the future with 100% accuracy, then that requires that we have no free will.

Isn't that the same thing as saying "the being that knows what happens in the future is causing us to choose what we choose"?.
If not, then what actually is causing us to choose what we choose?

 

[muhammad_isa]

I don't, because I don't even know what it means..

Fair enough. You take everything you see at face value, and don't believe in God as we define Him.

We say that God is able to know what we will choose in the future of our own free will. That's what it means.

..but you continue to argue there is no such God .. simple really.