What causes people to choose what they choose?

[Heyo]

It is not God forcing it on you, its the fact that he knows.

Nope. It's not the fact of someone knowing, it's a consequence of the kind of universe we are in.

There is the hypothesis of block time or block universe, where there is one space time that is a universal "block". You can compare this kind of universe to a film or a book, where everything is determined from the "beginning" (if there is one).
There is another hypothesis where there are multiple universes.
Only in the first universe is it possible to "know the future" because there is only one. In such a universe free will is impossible. (And that's not because someone knows the future - but because someone can know the future.)

So a universe with free will has to allow for branching time lines. Whenever you make a decision a new universe forms for every possible decision you make. Now in such a universe omniscience is impossible. You can't know in which timeline you end up, or more precisely, you end up in both, the one where your prediction was right and the one where the prediction was wrong.
But that doesn't have to deter a god. It can create universes and it can destroy universes, i.e. the universes where it was wrong.
There is another way. God could travel back in time to fix its prediction whenever it is wrong.
The moment you allow magic or time travel into the equation, everything becomes possible.

 

[Nimos]

If God foresaw that you will buy a red car you will buy a red car, not because God foresaw it but because you chose to buy it. God simply foresaw what color car you would choose to buy.

If you had chosen to buy a blue car or a green car, those would be cars that God had foreseen.

I get what you are saying but it doesn't work.

If we use the same example as last with the state of Universe, X => 2, one state going towards a known future.

God knows all states at all time, so he doesn't only know the future in 10 years, he also knows the exact future in 0.0001 second etc. But even more than that.

Because his knowledge also tells him, what you will do before you ever do it, and you can derive that from either keep pushing X back in time or closer to "2".

This is very important, before you are born and have ever made any choices, he knows which color of car you will buy and X => 2 is still true, X can be any screenshot of the Universe at any given point of time.

So when the dinosaurs roamed the Earth, we can put that as X, one second later we can put that as X, add another second and that is X as well, keep doing that until we reach this very moment in time. Whatever "screenshot" you put into X. God still know what the state of the Universe is at when it reaches "2". So any X's regardless of where you start in the history of the Universe must lead to the state "2".

If God knows you will buy a red car in future right now at this very moment as you read this post. Then he would have also known this 4 billion years ago. Time for God in this case doesn't matter, because he knows all of it at all times. Therefore God can't be wrong about the future at any point in our timeline, even if he is outside of it himself. Our timeline is fixed going forward one second after another, even if God doesn't follow this logic. He wouldn't be able to see our timeline any differently.

It would still be a linear timeline, where events happens at a given point in time, regardless of him being able to see all of it at the same time. And to really point out what this means, is that we can't have an event like for instance, the moon crashing into Earth, unless the creation of the moon happened before hand.

Not even God could see this any differently when looking at our timeline.

The moon HAS to be created before it can crash into Earth so God could potentially see such future.

So likewise, for God to be able to see you buying a red car, before you even do it. Means that this choice must have already been decided. God wouldn't be able to see you buying a red car, if the choice weren't made first.

Again, the situation with Billy stealing.

 

[muhammad_isa]

There is the hypothesis of block time or block universe, where there is one space time that is a universal "block". You can compare this kind of universe to a film or a book, where everything is determined from the "beginning" (if there is one).

One has to be careful here..
The universal block is what is predicted by relativity, and so is quite popular. However, it can be confusing because it doesn't have to be determined "from the beginning" .. it is a matter of perception. What is wrong with a block universe that is determined by our choices? It is just that the future is unknown .. it can't be a billion different outcomes .. there is going to be only one, but we don't know what it is.

So a universe with free will has to allow for branching time lines. Whenever you make a decision a new universe forms for every possible decision you make..

That is purely an intuitive perception.
If we have no free will in a block universe, as you claim, then what is causing us to choose if not ourselves?

 

[Nimos]

Nope. It's not the fact of someone knowing, it's a consequence of the kind of universe we are in.

There is the hypothesis of block time or block universe, where there is one space time that is a universal "block". You can compare this kind of universe to a film or a book, where everything is determined from the "beginning" (if there is one).
There is another hypothesis where there are multiple universes.
Only in the first universe is it possible to "know the future" because there is only one. In such a universe free will is impossible. (And that's not because someone knows the future - but because someone can know the future.)

So a universe with free will has to allow for branching time lines. Whenever you make a decision a new universe forms for every possible decision you make. Now in such a universe omniscience is impossible. You can't know in which timeline you end up, or more precisely, you end up in both, the one where your prediction was right and the one where the prediction was wrong.
But that doesn't have to deter a god. It can create universes and it can destroy universes, i.e. the universes where it was wrong.
There is another way. God could travel back in time to fix its prediction whenever it is wrong.
The moment you allow magic or time travel into the equation, everything becomes possible.

I agree with you, its complicated talking about this, because I ultimately think this whole idea is impossible, even with branching timelines etc.

And I think the reason for this is, because it goes off track completely ending up in a deadlock so to speak. If we imagine God knowing everything, then he would also know his own future to perfection.

Imagine you knowing this, so you know that in exactly one week, what you will do, how many times you will breath, what you will eat, that you will paint the room the wrong color, fall down the stairs, hit your toe on a a piece of wood that you can see at this very moment.

But how would you change anything? Because you know everything, so the future is known as well, so you can't change that. You will paint the room the wrong color, otherwise you can't be all knowing.

So as I see it, you end up in a deadlock, God can't change anything about the future, neither ours or his own.

 

[Heyo]

That is purely an intuitive perception.
If we have no free will in a block universe, as you claim, then what is causing us to choose if not ourselves?

Nothing, we don't choose. There is never any true choice in a block universe, only the illusion of choice.

 

[Heyo]

So as I see it, you end up in a deadlock, God can't change anything about the future, neither ours or his own.

Logically speaking, yes. But once you introduce magic, everything is possible. And as god is all about magical thinking, logic is no longer applicable as soon as you introduce a god concept.

 

[Nimos]

Logically speaking, yes. But once you introduce magic, everything is possible. And as god is all about magical thinking, logic is no longer applicable as soon as you introduce a god concept.

Yes with magic everything goes.

Except logic

 

[Heyo]

Yes with magic everything goes.

Except logic

@Trailblazer and I have agreed upon that some page before.

 

[Sheldon]

Yes. I have continually corrected people about what I mean by a "fixed future", but they ignore it.

When you said the future was "set in stone" that pretty much cleared it up.

 

[Sheldon]

Logically speaking, yes. But once you introduce magic, everything is possible. And as god is all about magical thinking, logic is no longer applicable as soon as you introduce a god concept.

Indeed, magic is simply an appeal to mystery, it has no explanatory powers by definition, and when someone claims a belief, idea or argument beyond logic, that is demonstrably an admission that it's irrational, again by definition.

 

[Sheldon]

God knows the result before you make your choice!!

..and how does God know?

It's your belief, YOU should be explaining it to us. You have failed to offer anything remotely cogent on the how, just as you have failed to understand the logical consequences of the belief.

 

[Nimos]

It's your belief, YOU should be explaining it to us. You have failed to offer anything remotely cogent on the how, just as you have failed to understand the logical consequences of the belief.

Just to be certain, is this addressed to me or Muhammad_isa as not having explained the how?

 

[Sheldon]

I already discussed about the time-traveler, and you seemed to understand better how it has nothing to do with free-will in that case.

You have failed to see the flaws in your analogy, since the time traveller exists only in the future in your hypothetical, thus they would be seeing choices that have been made. You claimed your deity knows exactly what we will choose, before we perceive making the choice, and that we cannot choose other then the exact choice a deity knows we will choose, and you have further claimed the future is set in stone. The repeatedly contradicted yourself by claiming we would still be free to choose whatever we want. You juts hop back and forth between these two mutually exclusive claims, refusing to either offer any cogent or rational explanation beyond bare denials of the contradiction.

We don't need specious time traveller analogies, we need you to offer a rational explanation of how the future can be both set in stone and changeable? So far you have failed to do this.

 

[Sheldon]

No. Everything is everything. The past. The future. The now. The whole. The totality. The whole freaking ball of wax.

Ah, someone is trying to use the old omniscient lite argument, are they? It was only a matter of time, relatively speaking of course.

 

[Sheldon]

Not exactly.
It is not logically possible to be able to travel to the future and back, if one thinks it logical that time cannot be violated.

For me, I see it as logically possible for God to have already experienced our futures, while we have not.

Well there you go, the belief is irrational, which is why you have failed to offer a rational defence of the contradiction it entails.

Better if you'd coughed to that out of the gate, instead of trying to pretend it was a rational belief. No one is obliged to be rational after all.

 

[Sheldon]

Whatever color of car you buy will be the color of car that God has always known you would buy.

Can I choose a colour different to the exact one, that you believe your deity knows I will choose?

Is that simple enough?

 

[Sheldon]

I've already explained why that is wrong.
While Billy might not have been born as far as we are concerned in this universe, for God, it has all happened already. It is not that he preordained it all.

OK .. you might not find that belief rational .. but that is what we believe.
i.e. God's perspective of events in time are different from ours

You set the future was set in stone?

 

[Sheldon]

Tiberius said: ↑
..if there is a being that knows what will happen in the future with 100% accuracy, then that requires that we have no free will.

Isn't that the same thing as saying "the being that knows what happens in the future is causing us to choose what we choose"?.
If not, then what actually is causing us to choose what we choose?

Tiberius is explaining the logical consequences of your belief, you seem to want him to explain to you how your belief happens as well, shouldn't you know this already? It's for you to explain it, not @Tiberius.

 

[Sheldon]

One has to be careful here..
The universal block is what is predicted by relativity, and so is quite popular. However, it can be confusing because it doesn't have to be determined "from the beginning" .. it is a matter of perception. What is wrong with a block universe that is determined by our choices? It is just that the future is unknown .. it can't be a billion different outcomes .. there is going to be only one, but we don't know what it is.

Did Einstein believe in free will? Did Einstein believe in any personal deity?

The fact we perceive a choice does not mean there is one. Your belief means a deity would know what we will do before we perceive doing it, ipso facto from the deity's perspective we would have no choice, and from the our perspective we would. Which brings us back to the consequences of an omniscient deity on our free will.

That is purely an intuitive perception.
If we have no free will in a block universe, as you claim, then what is causing us to choose if not ourselves?

Again you seem to want others to explain what you believe to you, these logical consequences are inferred from your belief, it's absurd to expect those who don't share that belief to explain the belief to you.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Nothing, we don't choose. There is never any true choice in a block universe, only the illusion of choice.

It can't be "nothing" .. there has to be something ultimately responsible for a person who drives a car along the road.
Any sane person knows that. Einstein knew that. We all know that.