What causes people to choose what they choose?

[Trailblazer]

Nonsensical.

That's like saying Spock could chose to abandon the Enterprise and escape in a shuttlecraft instead of sacrifice himself the next time you watch Star Trek 2.

Tell ya what.

You explain to me how Spock can choose to escape via shuttle, you show me how that's an actual available option for Spock, and I'll accept your argument here.

I do not care what happens in the movies, I only care about real life.

 

[Trailblazer]

Incorrect. I could not have chosen to have a shower today if me having a shower will lead to me slipping and cracking my head open. If me having a shower is required for me to go out for dinner tonight (because I have been working in the garden and I am absolutely filthy), then now I don't have the free will to go out to dinner. See how these things add up and quickly incorporate all sorts of things?

f God has predestined that you will die in your sleep aged 87, then nothing you do with your free will will cause you to die before age 87. That is how predestination works.

If God always knew with 100% accuracy what the outcome, then the only possible outcome was the one that led to what God foresaw. All other options were not available, since they led to something God knew would not happen.

If God always knew with 100% accuracy what the outcome, then the only possible outcome was the one that led to what God foresaw.

But before we made the choice that led to that outcome, many other choices were available, and any one of those choices would have led to what God had foreseen.

My ability to think tangentially - to see it from God's perspective as well as from a human on earth perspective - is what allows me to understand this. Your inability to think tangentially is what has nailed you in the coffin.

 

[Brian2]

Since he's creating all those moments he is choosing them actively. Not simply allowing them.

I have never before heard of the idea that God created all moments.
God created the universe and created time but not all the moments.
(I wonder if time is analogue or digital )
If He had done that God would be actually doing everything that has been done.

I said just the opposite. What I said is that God knowingly and intentionally chooses all the moments when he creates the universe. It is your sense of choise that is an illusion. Not God's.

Why is it that God has free will even though He knows what He is going to do, but we don't.
BTW do you think that God does everything at the same time, the present, any does not consider time at all and? That might be a bit awkward for us who are governed by time.

Demonstrate that can be true with an Omni god. You have neither dealt with my reasoning, nor presented any reasoning of your own. You have only made bald assertions and denials.

Arguments that say there is no free will because God knows what we will choose and so we cannot choose anything else are argument based on the language used and not on sound logic imo, but ignore the fact that the language tells us that we are choosing to do what we do.
If we choose and are not forced then we freely choose.

 

[ppp]

Arguments that say there is no free will because God knows what we will choose and so we cannot choose anything else are argument based on the language used and not on sound logic imo, but ignore the fact that the language tells us that we are choosing to do what we do.
If we choose and are not forced then we freely choose.

I asked you for reasoning.

 

[stanberger]

If you are referring to religious beliefs, I do not think that people necessarily choose beliefs that make them most comfortable. I mean I do not think that all people choose beliefs for that reason. I think some people choose a religion because they have determined that the religion is true, but that does not mean they are comfortable.

That is probably true.

I agree. People are free to change their religious beliefs but most people never change those beliefs. Why they don't change them is debatable, but I have my own ideas.

I left church for islam in 2002. I could not follow yahweh of bible who committed infanticide [passover]. and flooded entire earth [noah floods] for the sins of a few of moses people. none of this in quran

 

[rational experiences]

If you brother choose as just a human all God terms. You said I claim the creator in created creation is the condition cooling.

Said so yourself.

Why men claim how they thought was by God in human reality. Which was described as human egotism.

As cooling is cooling exact by a word and not by your thought.

So my brother a human taught said a word is God. Not a man. As our science brother is life's destroyer. Who says he's God on person.

He's not the state cooling.

Pretty basic human teaching.

Father said Stephen hawkings science statement was brother inventor ignored. By healthy younger egotist AI believer his human invention was the brother.

As father the owner adult was not the scientist.

I Invent said man. I want you to believe in my invention to be super rich.

I knew he said as Stephen taught me a man's mind can be connected to his man designed machines and it spoke for him.

Yet his destroyed body was a humans form was because physical human biology pressed controlled the body machine.

Yet all thoughts from design begin at dust of God...to invent totally the machine. To his human biology thinking constantly non stop in machine use.

Says I'm safe we can apply the new thesis machine controlled by man's thoughts totally as all instructions are machinations...no body is needed as Stephen still lived.

Thinks it's a sane thesis using inferring all human only taught concepts.

Directly owned life biology proven not chemistry.

Stephen was born by human sex. He wasn't invented by AI. Stephen Hawking.

Stephen survived only because healthy man was in front of him as a new baby.

As baby man was scientists inventor.

Ignored Jesus baby life of man was sacrificed preaching.

So he's not safe he's lucky he is still alive.

Machines own voice recording already. Machines use image of everything recorded already.

Which is total life support gone as healthy biology history.

So it's not safe as you now want a machine to be controlled not by physical biology by just a mind.

Which means imagine Stephen Hawking never existed term instead a future man inherits your choices but wait a minute wouldn't be born at all.

I think that means one human totally eradicated.

Why more men think self a woman than vice versa.

 

[ppp]

I left church for islam in 2002. I could not follow yahweh of bible who committed infanticide [passover]. and flooded entire earth [noah floods] for the sins of a few of moses people. none of this in quran

You didn't go far enough.

 

[Trailblazer]

I left church for islam in 2002. I could not follow yahweh of bible who committed infanticide [passover]. and flooded entire earth [noah floods] for the sins of a few of moses people. none of this in quran

I never believed that the one true God ever did what is recorded in the Old Testament, I believe the OT is anthropomorphic.
Certainly the Qur'an is a more accurate depiction of God than any of the Bible, Old Testament or New Testament.

 

[Brian2]

I asked you for reasoning.

Is it that hard to understand that God knows what we freely choose?
Does saying that we could choose nothing else but what God knows show that we have not God free will or show that God is omniscient?
I think that all it is really saying is that God is omniscient and knows what we freely choose.
God has not forced us to choose what we did by knowing what we will choose, so God has not taken away our ability to actually choose.

 

[muhammad_isa]

For crying out loud.

I've had to answer this repeatedly for TrailBlazer, don't make me go through the same thing with you.

A being knowing what the future will bring is not necessarily causing that future to happen.

When I watch Star Trek 2, I know Spock is going to sacrifice himself. However, I am not forcing Spock to sacrifice himself. My knowledge of what Spock will do is not what makes him do it.

You haven't answered the question. You don't say what actually is causing us to choose what we choose.

 

[Brian2]

You haven't answered the question. You don't say what actually is causing us to choose what we choose.

Good question.

 

[Nimos]

There is no logical connection between what God knows and what we will choose. The ONLY reason we will choose what God knows we will choose is because God knows what we will choose, and whatever we choose (from all the available options) will be what God had always known we would choose.

God's foreknowledge does not cause us to choose anything at all. We can choose whatever we want to choose, and whatever that is will be what God has always known we would choose.

God does not exist in time as we measure it in this world. God knows everything that has ever happened, everything that is happening now, and everything that will ever happen in this material world and in the entire universe.

God knew what choice we would make at creation, long before we were born, long before we decided to make that choice, because God has perfect foreknowledge. God knew I was going to choose to buy a red car at creation, long before I made the choice to buy a red car. God foresaw me buying the red car at creation.

It is the same with billy stealing. God knew at creation that Billy would steal because God has perfect foreknowledge, but God's foreknowledge did not cause Billy to steal. Billy chose to steal instead of being honest. God knew Billy would do that but God's foreknowledge did not CAUSE Billy to steal.

Honestly I don't know, I understand what you are saying. And given that God is said to know everything, I guess it could be possible as well.

But I think you run into issues anyway, even if we go with God simply knowing our choices as you say. Because this obviously only apply to living things, I don't know if animals have free will? But nonetheless, you didn't have a choice about what colors should exist in the Universe, God decided that, God also decided that Earth should exist in the first place, that you should be allowed to choose between the colors he decided should be there etc.

Given that God decided this for all none intelligent things and even for you, seems to contradict the idea of free will. You got free will, because God commanded it, I don't know if it makes sense to then talk about free will. More than it is to say that a hamster in a cage have free will.

I can't get my head around what impact this would have in regards to this topic Which is why I say that I honestly don't know.

 

[ppp]

Is it that hard to understand that God knows what we freely choose?

I understand that you are saying it. But as I have already illustrated, it sets up a contradiction.

When God creates a universe, he necessarily creates it knowing every event of that universe. If he does not know every event, then he is not omniscient.
God has an unbounded choice of universes to create. If he does not have an unbounded choice, then he is not omnipotent.

Among God's choices is a universe where Bob has a ham sandwich for lunch, and another where Bob has a turkey pot pie.
God chose to create the one where Bob has a turkey pot pie.

Therefore the choice was made at the moment of creation by God. Not at the moment of lunchtime by Bob,
Bob is just a meat puppet with the illusion of freewill.

The only way that Bob could have fee will is if he were able to act in a way that contradicts God's knowledge.

 

[Trailblazer]

Good question.

I think the answer is free will.

 

[John53]

I think the answer is free will.

How does free will cause anything? Wouldn't it be an action rather than a cause?

 

[Trailblazer]

How does free will cause anything? Wouldn't it be an action rather than a cause?

Free will is what allows us to take action. Without volition there can be no action.
All actions are preceded by volition.
Haven't you ever heard the saying "when there is a will there is a way?"

Where there's a will, there's a way means if someone really wants to do something, they will find a way to do it, even if there are things that make it hard to do. This may be used in a positive sense, such as talking about a tireless worker who gets a hard job done.Aug 27, 2020

Learn English Idioms: Where there's a will, there's a way

 

[John53]

Free will is what allows us to take action. Without volition there can be no action.
All actions are preceded by volition.
Haven't you ever heard the saying "when there is a will there is a way?"

Where there's a will, there's a way means if someone really wants to do something, they will find a way to do it, even if there are things that make it hard to do. This may be used in a positive sense, such as talking about a tireless worker who gets a hard job done.Aug 27, 2020

Learn English Idioms: Where there's a will, there's a way

I really don't understand your post, maybe because it's 5.20am and my brain isn't working yet.

 

[Trailblazer]

I really don't understand your post, maybe because it's 5.20am and my brain isn't working yet.

I know what you mean. It is 1:20 pm here and I am still trying to wake up, but of course I only slept about three hours since last night was the night from hell and I could not sleep when I normally do.

 

[John53]

I know what you mean. It is 1:20 pm here and I am still trying to wake up, but of course I only slept about three hours since last night was the night from hell and I could not sleep when I normally do.

I know the feeling, I fell asleep about 11pm then was tossing and turning from about 2am, gave up trying to go back to sleep at 5am.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Position A: Some people say that if God is omniscient and knows everything that will ever happen in the future that means we do not have free will because we can only make one choice (x), the choice God knows we will make. If we can only make one choice (x) what is causing us to make that choice? Is God’s foreknowledge of what we will choose (x) forcing us to choose x? If God’s foreknowledge is not forcing us to choose x, what is causing us to choose x?

In such case, I'ld say the obvious answers would be deterministic physics. Chemistry is pretty deterministic and life is, at bottom, the extreme expression of complex chemistry. So why shouldn't it be deterministic?

While I happen to be of the opinion that the very complexity of neurological pathways / brain chemistry actually provides us with a certain autonomy that makes us able to choose rather freely, the idea of it all, at bottom, being deterministic physics doesn't seem that far fetched to me.

But I don't experience it like that - which doesn't mean that it isn't so off course.
I feel like I am able to freely choose things and also change my mind. Off course, that could also just be part of the deterministic ways of complex chemistry - it could be an illusion. lol

However, I'm not aware of any good / sufficient evidence to support such, so instead I go with how it appears to be to me.

Position B: It is my contention that God knows the one choice we will make and we will make that choice, but before we make that choice we have free will to choose from more than one option (x, y, or z). Whatever we choose will be what God knows we will choose because God has perfect foreknowledge. As such, whether we had chosen x, y or z, God would have known which one of those we were going to choose.

That makes no sense to me.

I don't see how real free will can coexist with perfect foreknowledge.
To me, these things seem very much mutually exclusive.

The very basis of true "free will", is that the outcome of a free choice can not be known beforehand with certainty. At best, one could make an educated guess. And in some cases, it might have an error margin of even only a fraction of a percent. But it would still be there. That's the "free" part.

Which position makes the most sense to you? Do you hold position A or B, or do you hold another position?

My position is that there are no gods to know anything - be it before or after the fact.

I think "free will" exists upto a certain point. I think it exists in that level of autonomy I referred to earlier as a result of the complexity of our brain chemistry and neural pathways.

I say "upto a certain point", because I also think that even though there is a level of autonomy in our decision making process, there's also still the aspect of deterministic physics and chemistry. There's also the fact that we can be manipulated into making certain decision, while we ourselves are very convinced of having had "free choice".

Mentalists abuse this psychological weakness all the time. It is their bread and butter.
"pick a card, ANY card". But in reality, you are picking the card that they wanted you to pick.

You think you had a free choice. You did not. They wanted you to draw the king of spades and sure enough, you drew the king of spades.

Please explain your position and explain why you hold it.

Ultimately, my position is that I don't know. Nobody really does. The relevant sciences aren't at the stage where this question can be answered.

So I go by what I experience and observe in the world and assume things are as they appear to be - until evidence shows otherwise.

And what I observe and experience, seems to be a combination of both: free will coupled with deterministic forces.


I like to compare it with software, although certainly not a perfect analogy

Consider a batch program. That's as deterministic as it comes. It will literally only do what it is programmed to do and nothing more or less. And it will do exactly the same thing every time it runs.

Now consider a self-learning AI program.
There's determinism there. But there's also an autonomous aspect. They are predictable, but only upto a certain point. If that weren't the case, then we wouldn't need AI after all....
So, an AI program very much is underpinned by deterministic physics (the way the computer hardware, machine code etc functions and is programmed to function). Yet, the manifestation of the program itself, isn't really that deterministic. Or, at least not in a way that is predictable.

There is a level of unpredictability there. Run it multiple times with a reset, and the outcome will not be the same - as opposed to the batch program.

Yet, the AI is also confined to the deterministic forces that underpin it, as well as within the boundaries of its ultimate capabilities.

For example.... An AI engine that learns to interpret what someone is drawing (like for example this one here: Quick, Draw! (quickdraw.withgoogle.com) )... this engine will become better and better at recognizing drawings. It will however not learn how to cook an egg.

(the drawing bit is not that good an example in terms of free decision making off course, I'm just using it to illustrate the natural boundaries around it ... whatever the AI will learn to do, it will stay within the boundaries of its own nature)