What causes people to choose what they choose?

[Brian2]

I am a little confused by that sentence. As I understand the concept of a being unbound by time that all moments would be the present for God. When he creates a universe, he is not doing so limited by a sequential perception, but all of a simultaneous (to him) piece. He is knowingly (omniscient) choosing all the moments at the point of creation. No?.

He, in knowing all the moments, would be choosing them in the sense of allowing them.

That phrase confuses me. I don't think I said or implied anything like that.

It asks if God's free will is curtailed by His knowing the future, or if you like, the present. Can God change what He knows will happen?

I am saying that because God intentionally chose the specific universe containing the event of me eating a ham sandwich for lunch today, that it is God choosing that event. Not me.

No it is God knowing what you will choose and making a universe in which you will freely choose that.

 

[Brian2]

That's right. It is a logical fallacy.

Many people intuitively think that, because of their perception of "God knowing your choice before you make it" is not a rational belief.

However, that is mixing up 2 different issues.
Given it is possible for God to know our choices beforehand, that means that the future is still determined by our choices as per usual.

Yes God knows what we will choose, He does not choose for us and force us to choose a certain way.
Which of course is not to say that God cannot influence our choices.

 

[Heyo]

It can't be "nothing" .. there has to be something ultimately responsible for a person who drives a car along the road.
Any sane person knows that. Einstein knew that. We all know that.

Why? How?
Who is "responsible" for things falling towards big masses?

 

[Brian2]

Here we go again, lets say I have two choices A and B, and your deity knows which one I will make before I perceive making it, can I choose other than what this deity knows I will choose, making that deity wrong about my choice?

Check mate...

No, but if you do choose one or the other, it is you who is doing the choosing.

 

[Brian2]

And there you have proved my point for me.

If God knows we will choose A, then we will Choose A (and we won't be able to choose B or C).
If God knows we will choose B, then we will Choose B (and we won't be able to choose A or C).
If God knows we will choose C, then we will Choose (and we won't be able to choose A or B).

The bits I highlighted in red are the bits that show we have no free will, since we are not able to choose anything else.

We can freely choose whichever we want to, A, B or C, and the statements say that we are choosing. God is not forcing us, we do it all by ourselves.
What is the mechanism through which God is forcing someone to choose whatever that person chooses?
Is knowing what the choice will be a mechanism of force?
God knows what we freely choose,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, no mechanism to force a choice.

 

[Brian2]

Tomorrow I will decide between A and B. Today I have not made that choice.
If I asked god today what I will choose tomorrow, he will know.
Therefore "god knows my choice before I made it".

That isn't an explanation. It is merely a non sequitur.
If our "choice" is limited to only one possible outcome (as you have accepted) then the future has already been determined before we make that choice.

God does not tell you what you will decide, you still decide for yourself. Your choice is between alternatives.
God knows what He would choose if He were you and if you ask Him He might tell you the best choice, but the choice is ours.

 

[Brian2]

In response to "Our choices cannot both be fixed, and changeable. This is a logical contradiction."
You said...
"Both are true".

The thing is that God knows the future, not us. The future is fixed in God's sight, but for us the future is not fixed and is dependent on out choices.
Both are true.
But the future is fixed anyway and we cannot change what we will happen.
So using your argument nobody can ever have a free will whether there is a God who knows that future or not.

The actual argument is... "God knows what we will choose, so we cannot choose any other option, what we choose is made inevitable by god's infallible foreknowledge".
This effectively negates free will as at the moment of making the "choice", there is only one possible outcome.

Yes I know the actual argument.

 

[Nimos]

It probably does not make sense to you how God could be all-knowing because God is not subject to logic.

I think he has to be, because likewise as they mention in the video, we don't assign logical contradictions to God, so God follows these as well. Meaning God couldn't create something he couldn't lift if he is all powerful.

But I don't really think this is an issue anyway. If I should argue the case from your side or at least from your perspective, I think it is possible for God to have perfect foreknowledge, without actually "violating" the idea of God. But there are some things which would still be true, free will for us wouldn't exist in that case.

Also im far from 100% certain that this would be correct from a logical point of view, because we are working with some concepts that are extremely complicated to get ones head around and what exactly it would mean, such as infinite and outside time and space etc. But maybe someone else here can find flaws in it, nonetheless its will be a fun thought experiment.

Obviously we have to make some assumptions and guesses. But the way I could see it being possible is due to several things, first of all because the Universe is a closed system, meaning that all matter stays within the system, but simply changes form. Like water turns to snow and back etc.

God would know what the state is for all matter in the Universe, what state it will turn into at any given point in time etc. whether it is going back in time or forward. Which would, as I see it, also mean that he could have perfect foreknowledge of everything about our Universe. Which would solve that issue at least

But then we still have the issue of God knowing everything about himself as well, but I think one could argue that this is solved by God being infinite and outside time and space.

If something is in the state of infinite, I think one could argue that there is no past, beginning or future it is simply the state of being and I think most religious people would agree to this about God's being.

Time also wouldn't exist, because the state of infinite can't have a beginning and therefore no end either. So God wouldn't have a future, nor a past and therefore it would be a logical contradiction for God to know these things about himself. Which means that God doesn't break any logical rules as such from being all knowing, but again, this only applies or make sense in regards to our existences, not God's, because he is infinite and therefore the future is infinite as it has always been and will always be and have never had a beginning or changed at any point.

But again it wouldn't solve the issue with the lack of free will for everything in our Universe, that would still apply.

Again, im not 100% certain this would hold up logically, but for right now, I think it would be a valid argument for how God could be all knowing without being logical inconsistent, if one is willing to give up free will. But maybe someone can tell me why that wouldn't work?

 

[Brian2]

The fact we perceive a choice does not mean there is one. Your belief means a deity would know what we will do before we perceive doing it, ipso facto from the deity's perspective we would have no choice, and from the our perspective we would. Which brings us back to the consequences of an omniscient deity on our free will..

From the deity's perspective we do have a choice because the deity knows what we will freely choose. From our perspective we also have a choice.

Again you seem to want others to explain what you believe to you, these logical consequences are inferred from your belief, it's absurd to expect those who don't share that belief to explain the belief to you.

Your consequences are not logical, they are deceitful, and they have first of all deceived yourself it seems.

 

[ppp]

He, in knowing all the moments, would be choosing them in the sense of allowing them.

Since he's creating all those moments he is choosing them actively. Not simply allowing them.

It asks if God's free will is curtailed by His knowing the future, or if you like, the present. Can God change what He knows will happen?

I said just the opposite. What I said is that God knowingly and intentionally chooses all the moments when he creates the universe. It is your sense of choise that is an illusion. Not God's.

No it is God knowing what you will choose and making a universe in which you will freely choose that.

Demonstrate that can be true with an Omni god. You have neither dealt with my reasoning, nor presented any reasoning of your own. You have only made bald assertions and denials.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

you cannot blame God for each choice that we have made, that would be grossly unfair on everyone involved. Nobody would be accountable for anything they did and nobody would get any glory for anything they did. We are in a similar position when we have children and know that those children will end up doing evil things. It is not our fault that they do evil things it is only our fault for allowing them to exist and loving them.

But do you know exactly what evil things those children will do, and when and where, and do you have the power to prevent it? If so, you are sufficiently omniscient and omnipotent to be held responsible for what they do. The law agrees, and doesn't even require you to know that much. It's enough that the undesirable outcome be foreseeable and preventable. If you leave a loaded gun where unsupervised children can find it, you will be held accountable by the law and your neighbors. The skeptic judges the tri-omni deity by the same standards as he does any other moral agent. The believer does not. It's no surprise that their judgments differ. The believer has a different set of rules for the deity, one that guarantees that the deity will never be blamed, like a parent that can never see their child at fault, and so never does see that whatever the child does.

a man cannot be both married and a bachelor at the same time imo. That sounds like it has nothing to do with God knowing what we will do and whether that means that we cannot choose whatever we like.

The analogy relates to saying that the deity has foreknowledge of the future of a universe in which free will occurs. For those who can't see the incoherence of the phrase married bachelor, we need only substitute unmarried man for bachelor, and we get married unmarried man. Free will requires indeterminism in the universe. Foreknowledge of events requires strict determinism. So, a universe in which free will occurs but the future is known before it happens is an indeterministic deterministic universe.

This cannot be reconciled as long as we use the word foreknowledge. Did you see the bit I wrote about a person watching the taped replay of a game he attended the day before? Yes, he has perfect knowledge of what will be seen in the replay, which may have been acts of free will when they occurred, but it is not foreknowledge to know them the next day. You can have post hoc knowledge in a world with free will (undeterministic), and you can have foreknowledge in a deterministic world, but you cannot have foreknowledge in a world with free will.

Given it is possible for God to know our choices beforehand, that means that the future is still determined by our choices as per usual.

You're conflating two meanings of choice - the ability to choose as would be the case if will is free, and the outcome of a situation in which it appears that a choice is possible but might not be if it is not. They're not really choices if they are they are constrained in the same sense that they are choices if they are not. If what we are calling choices are determined, then these choices do nothing to determine the future except play their necessary and predetermined role as an effect of what necessarily preceded it that becomes a cause.

I can't think of any reason God would be expected to know 100% of all future events. For example, there's nothing in the extensive texts of the common bible that suggests God knows every future event ahead of time

You're on the right track here. It was a mistake to ever have claimed that this deity was tri-omni. Think how much easier apologetics would be if God was simply the smarted, kindest, and most powerful entity in existence, but not perfect. One of the married bachelor contradictions is the perfect imperfect deity, the one who is said to be perfect yet regretted his error and attempted to correct it. Not a problem if one drops perfect, but until then, you've described a logically impossible deity whose existence can be ruled out with the same certainty as the married bachelor.

 

[Trailblazer]

Can I choose a colour different to the exact one, that you believe your deity knows I will choose?

Yes you can, and if you do, that color will be the color that the deity knew you would choose.

 

[Trailblazer]

If God knows you will buy a red car in future right now at this very moment as you read this post. Then he would have also known this 4 billion years ago. Time for God in this case doesn't matter, because he knows all of it at all times. Therefore God can't be wrong about the future at any point in our timeline, even if he is outside of it himself. Our timeline is fixed going forward one second after another, even if God doesn't follow this logic. He wouldn't be able to see our timeline any differently.

There is no logical connection between what God knows and what we will choose. The ONLY reason we will choose what God knows we will choose is because God knows what we will choose, and whatever we choose (from all the available options) will be what God had always known we would choose.

God's foreknowledge does not cause us to choose anything at all. We can choose whatever we want to choose, and whatever that is will be what God has always known we would choose.

So likewise, for God to be able to see you buying a red car, before you even do it. Means that this choice must have already been decided. God wouldn't be able to see you buying a red car, if the choice weren't made first.

God does not exist in time as we measure it in this world. God knows everything that has ever happened, everything that is happening now, and everything that will ever happen in this material world and in the entire universe.

God knew what choice we would make at creation, long before we were born, long before we decided to make that choice, because God has perfect foreknowledge. God knew I was going to choose to buy a red car at creation, long before I made the choice to buy a red car. God foresaw me buying the red car at creation.

Again, the situation with Billy stealing.

It is the same with billy stealing. God knew at creation that Billy would steal because God has perfect foreknowledge, but God's foreknowledge did not cause Billy to steal. Billy chose to steal instead of being honest. God knew Billy would do that but God's foreknowledge did not CAUSE Billy to steal.

 

[Tiberius]

Isn't that the same thing as saying "the being that knows what happens in the future is causing us to choose what we choose"?.
If not, then what actually is causing us to choose what we choose?

For crying out loud.

I've had to answer this repeatedly for TrailBlazer, don't make me go through the same thing with you.

A being knowing what the future will bring is not necessarily causing that future to happen.

When I watch Star Trek 2, I know Spock is going to sacrifice himself. However, I am not forcing Spock to sacrifice himself. My knowledge of what Spock will do is not what makes him do it.

 

[Tiberius]

We can freely choose whichever we want to, A, B or C, and the statements say that we are choosing. God is not forcing us, we do it all by ourselves.
What is the mechanism through which God is forcing someone to choose whatever that person chooses?
Is knowing what the choice will be a mechanism of force?
God knows what we freely choose,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, no mechanism to force a choice.

If you'd bothered to read through a bit of this thread to see my actual position, you'd have seen that at no point have I ever claimed that God is forcing us, or that God's knowledge is forcing us.

Getting mighty sick of these repeated strawman arguments, everyone.

 

[Trailblazer]

But God knows we will choose A.

If God KNOWS I will choose A, how can I still choose B?

You will choose A because that is what you wanted to choose, NOT because God knew you would choose A, since "God's foreknowledge doesn't force you to make a choice" #514
If you chose A God knew you would choose A because God is all-knowing.

You could have chosen B if that is what you wanted to choose, NOT because God knew you would choose B, since "God's foreknowledge doesn't force you to make a choice" #514
If you chose B God knew you would choose B because God is all-knowing.

 

[Trailblazer]

It does make a difference, because if there is a being that knows what will happen in the future with 100% accuracy, then that requires that we have no free will.

No, you are wrong about that, for reasons I have explained over and over and over again.

Ah, but I also would not have the free will to do anything that would lead to me not dying at age 87, would I?

If God has predestined that you will die in your sleep aged 87, then nothing you do with your free will will cause you to die before age 87.

Here we go again...

If God knows the outcome of the choice before we make it, and God can never be wrong, then any other option we THINK we have is not actually an option at all. There is one option only, and if there is only one option, there is no choice. The illusion of choice is not actually choice.

Here we go again...

If God knows the outcome of the choice before we make it, and God can never be wrong, then the outcome will be what God knew it would be. BEFORE that choice was made that led to the outcome there were other choices we could have made. Whatever choice we made that will be the choice God knew we would make.

 

[Tiberius]

You will choose A because that is what you wanted to choose, NOT because God knew you would choose A, since "God's foreknowledge doesn't force you to make a choice" #514
If you chose A God knew you would choose A because God is all-knowing.

You could have chosen B if that is what you wanted to choose, NOT because God knew you would choose B, since "God's foreknowledge doesn't force you to make a choice" #514
If you chose B God knew you would choose B because God is all-knowing.

Nonsensical.

That's like saying Spock could chose to abandon the Enterprise and escape in a shuttlecraft instead of sacrifice himself the next time you watch Star Trek 2.

Tell ya what.

You explain to me how Spock can choose to escape via shuttle, you show me how that's an actual available option for Spock, and I'll accept your argument here.

 

[Tiberius]

No, you are wrong about that, for reasons I have explained over and over and over again.

Your explanation is flawed for reasons I have explained over and over and over again.

If God has predestined that you will die in your sleep aged 87, then nothing you do with your free will will cause you to die before age 87.

Incorrect. I could not have chosen to have a shower today if me having a shower will lead to me slipping and cracking my head open. If me having a shower is required for me to go out for dinner tonight (because I have been working in the garden and I am absolutely filthy), then now I don't have the free will to go out to dinner. See how these things add up and quickly incorporate all sorts of things?

Here we go again...

If God knows the outcome of the choice before we make it, and God can never be wrong, then the outcome will be what God knew it would be. BEFORE that choice was made that led to the outcome there were other choices we could have made. Whatever choice we made that will be the choice God knew we would make.

If God always knew with 100% accuracy what the outcome, then the only possible outcome was the one that led to what God foresaw. All other options were not available, since they led to something God knew would not happen.

 

[CG Didymus]

Which of course is not to say that God cannot influence our choices.

Yeah, talk about that. Because if God can and does influence our choices that means he could have influenced a person not to do something evil. Or God could have influenced a person not to do something that ends up getting them killed. But sometimes God let's those evil people do evil things to others. And God let's those people that get hurt or killed go to the place where it happens. Or, like a traffic accident, God could have influenced a person to take another road or to go at a later time, but he doesn't. He lets them go down a road knowing that a drunk driver is going to run a red light.

Then, when it comes to religion, God has some people born into a family of Jews in Germany in the 1930's. What? They were born to suffer and die? And die without knowing Jesus. Or he has the Ayatollah take over Iran and have several Baha'is killed or imprisoned. Many of them leave the country. Some go to the U.S. and completely change the make up of the American Baha'is community. So God knows who he has to influence to get his "will" done? Or does he try and influence everybody?