What church is the true church?

[Xchristian]

choosing a church which is not based on 'Gods Word' is not going to lead you to truth,.

but it's the church that chose that compilation, are you trying to tell me that the trinitarians were inspired till the American myth was invented?

 

[Pegg]

but it's the church that chose that compilation, are you trying to tell me that the trinitarians were inspired till the American myth was invented?

what do you mean 'the church chose that'? what church, and what did it choose??


what has trinitarianism got to do with Gods Word??? You know the teaching is not found in the bible dont you?

 

[Desert Snake]

Thank you! That is what I was saying.

Except you weren't saying that clearly and you said you didn't follow all those Scriptures, earlier in the thread, there is no reason for me to 'interpret' what you're actually saying.

 

[ChristineES]

Except you weren't saying that clearly and you said you didn't follow all those Scriptures, earlier in the thread, there is no reason for me to 'interpret' what you're actually saying.

Maybe I wasn't clear. I am glad at least one person could understand it, even so. I did explain it to you and you still didn't believe me, though (as I can tell what you said to his response). But peace, brother. This is the last I'll mention it.

 

[Xchristian]

what has trinitarianism got to do with Gods Word??? You know the teaching is not found in the bible dont you?

who chose that book for you and not any other? who said that the NT is 27 books .. etc?

 

[ChristineES]

I think we all are always in need of Scriptures when deciding who the "True Church" truly is.

Mark 9:40 He who is not against us is for us.

Edit: I know it is out of context, but very easy to look up and read in context.

 

[George-ananda]

But if someone is serious about finding Gods truth, then look to Jesus...the one sent by God to reveal truth.

How do we know that? Is He the only one for all cultures?

 

[Desert Snake]

I think we all are always in need of Scriptures when deciding who the "True Church" truly is.

Mark 9:40 He who is not against us is for us.

Edit: I know it is out of context, but very easy to look up and read in context.

it means the churches are all valid if they're in Christ.
Good find.

 

[gnostic]

So you didn't read the entire thread.

You mean her entire POST, don't you?

If you do mean the entire THREAD, then I have to say that I don't need to read it, when I just want clarification or explanation for your reply (post 178) to her post (post 177), which I had already quoted.

So I'm sort of asking you why did you respond the way you did with your post 178 to her post 177?

What you had quoted from her post, didn't make sense at all to me.

The way I read this part:

I think we need to go back to worrying about our own sins and let others worry about theirs. Our job has only been to spread the name of Jesus- not judge who is or who isn't a true follower of Jesus.

I don't understand why you quote this part of her post, and that you think she was posting about Christians (in general?) are following a false religion? I don't think she is saying that at all. I think you've misunderstood her post.

I read it as Christians shouldn't judge other Christians on who is the "true believers" or who is the "true Christians". And I see nothing wrong with that.

But if you were talking about her entire POST (just post 177) instead of this whole thread, then that's completely different line of questioning.

I did read the rest of her reply (post 177), and found nothing untoward, because she is going by the modern biblical scholarship about the canon of the NT. I will quote the rest of her reply, and let you re-examined what she had said.

None of the 12 Apostles, Paul, or the 70 disciples put together the books that would be included in the NT. I am not 100% sure, but I believe that was put together about 300 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus. So maybe how we intepret the the Gospels, Paul's letters, letters that are credited to Paul but not actually written by Paul. The letters of Peter, John, John the Elder, James, whoever wrote Hebrews, Jude, John Mark (Some say that is Peter's son), etc. are not what makes a Christian a true Christian or what makes a true Church member.

I don't know about you, but the way I understand the canon of the NT (let's just concentrate on the NT, and leave out OT canon, since this topic is about the "true church"), particularly the history of the NT canon is that it is not so black-and-white as some people may think.

There was no New Testament, in the 1st century CE. No one in that time, had all the gospels and epistles (as well as the Acts and Revelation) together in one collection in this century (1st century CE). And no one thought to collect, arrange and organize all these individual writings into single volume, yet...and certainly no one in the 1st century CE decided the "canonical" status of each (individual) work.

The question of "canonical" of each text, and put in a single canonical volume (eg. like the "New Testament") until the 4th century CE.

I am not 100% certain, but that's what I think ChristineES was getting at.

And there are couple of epistles, attributed to Paul, raised the question of who truly wrote them. The ones (epistles) that come to mind, are Hebrews and 1 Timothy. No one know who wrote either of these 2 letters.

And then, there is (epistle of) Jude. There were questions even back then, whether to include Jude, as a canonical epistle or not. What prophecy was Jude (1:14-15) referring to that Enoch was said to have prophecies?

14 It was also about these that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “See, the Lord is coming[m] with ten thousands of his holy ones, 15 to execute judgment on all, and to convict everyone of all the deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

9. And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of ⌈His⌉ holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy ⌈all⌉ the ungodly:
And to convict all flesh
Of all the works ⌈of their ungodliness⌉ which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners ⌈have spoken⌉ against Him.

Everything seemed to indicate that Jude was referring to one of the books of Enoch, that was written in 3rd century BCE (particularly the section known as the Book of Watchers, the oldest part of 1 Enoch). Why would Jude include this, quoting work (1 Enoch) from Pseudepigrapha?

Again, I find no problem with ChristineES' reasoning, either when the books were put altogether, and questioning why some books of doubtful authorship in the New Testament.

 

[Desert Snake]

^ I meant entire thread. So you were answering out of context.

 

[gnostic]

^ I meant entire thread. So you were answering out of context.

And I wasn't speaking of entire thread, when I replied to you @ post 196.

My reply was quite specific, and directed to you, wanting explanation or clarification from you about her post (post 177). Hence, my question: "WHAT???"

Right now, you not the understanding the context of my replies. If you did, you wouldn't keep misdirecting my inquiries.

And I had already explain what I think ChristineES has been writing, which is completely different to your view of what she said (in post 177).

Can you explain what you mean, back at post 178? ...and why did you quoted what you did, in that post?

Answer that, then I'll get back to you.

Are you going to keep avoiding my questions?

 

[Pegg]

How do we know that? Is He the only one for all cultures?

we know that because he, like the prophets prior to him, came with Gods express approval and backing. That divine approval was evidence by the powers he possessed. A man who could heal the blind, sick, lame AND raise the dead surely gives evidence that God is with him.

that is why so many in his day put their faith in him as the worlds messiah.... the messiah for all mankind. Christianity is a universal religion that is not bound by any one culture....it is a religion founded on 'principles' which people from all backgrounds can understand and apply.

 

[Shermana]

we know that because he, like the prophets prior to him, came with Gods express approval and backing. That divine approval was evidence by the powers he possessed. A man who could heal the blind, sick, lame AND raise the dead surely gives evidence that God is with him.

that is why so many in his day put their faith in him as the worlds messiah.... the messiah for all mankind. Christianity is a universal religion that is not bound by any one culture....it is a religion founded on 'principles' which people from all backgrounds can understand and apply.

"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'"

2 Thes 2

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]{9} The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders[/FONT]

 

[Pegg]

"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'"

2 Thes 2

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]{9} The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders[/FONT]

have you ever found anyone other then Jesus and his apostles who have raised the dead???

I think that is a miracle which only Gods power can perform because the power of 'life' is with God and no one else.

 

[Shermana]

it means the churches are all valid if they're in Christ.
Good find.

But "Against us" could very well mean "Against what we are teaching".

("We" and "Us" = Jesus and the Pre-Pauline Church)

 

[George-ananda]

we know that because he, like the prophets prior to him, came with Gods express approval and backing. That divine approval was evidence by the powers he possessed. A man who could heal the blind, sick, lame AND raise the dead surely gives evidence that God is with him.

But I know of 'holy' men from other societies, Hindu for example, about whom miraculous stories are told too. Couldn't they also be valid to put faith in?

 

[Pegg]

But I know of 'holy' men from other societies, Hindu for example, about whom miraculous stories are told too. Couldn't they also be valid to put faith in?

i guess that depends on your point of view...if 'stories' are enough for you, then sure, why not.....you can believe in whatever stories sound good to you.

 

[Shermana]

i guess that depends on your point of view...if 'stories' are enough for you, then sure, why not.....you can believe in whatever stories sound good to you.

Define the difference between the account of Paul raising the dead in Acts and a "story".

 

[Pegg]

Define the difference between the account of Paul raising the dead in Acts and a "story".

the difference is that most people would not put their life on the line for a story they heard. When you are 100% convinced that you have proof of something, you would be willing to die for it.

Christians were willing to die (and did). They had seen the resurrection with their own eyes...if they died, they 'knew' without doubt that they could be awakened from death.

hearing stories isnt so convincing.

 

[Shermana]

the difference is that most people would not put their life on the line for a story they heard. When you are 100% convinced that you have proof of something, you would be willing to die for it.

I guess we should give Muhammad the same respect then, seeing as he risked his life on many occasions.

Christians were willing to die (and did). They had seen the resurrection with their own eyes...if they died, they 'knew' without doubt that they could be awakened from death.

Many religions had members who were willing to die. I guess we should give the Sikhs the same respect, Martyrdom is big in their religion. And I'm assuming the grand majority of Paul's followers did not witness his resurrecting the dead.

The grand majority of Christian martyrs never met any of the apostles.

hearing stories isnt so convincing

How about reading accounts in the NT?