What church is the true church?

[Pegg]

How about reading accounts in the NT?

when you read the NT, you are reading eyewitness testimony


Its an historical account, not an unsubstantiated feelgood story.

 

[Shermana]

when you read the NT, you are reading eyewitness testimony

Says who? How would you convince someone that the account in Acts is 100% eyewitness account?

Its an historical account, not an unsubstantiated feelgood story

And we know it isn't loaded with interpolated episodes because...?

(I.e. for example the Pericope Adulterae).

 

[Walkntune]

I would say the true church is those who understand that they are saved by grace not by self effort and laws but by the righteousness imputed into them through Christ. God does not bless us on our right and wrong deeds but only by our faith in his love and grace.
The very fact people believe God blesses us based on our righteous walk is the very poison that got mixed in the gospel.
Here is the goepel according to Jesus,
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
... 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Do you suppose God holds you to a standard to that which he himself does not abide?Blessings only come through faith in his grace, not right standing and self righteous effort.

 

[Shermana]

I would say the true church is those who understand that they are saved by grace not by self effort and laws but by the righteousness imputed into them through Christ. God does not bless us on our right and wrong deeds but only by our faith in his love and grace.
The very fact people believe God blesses us based on our righteous walk is the very poison that got mixed in the gospel.
Here is the goepel according to Jesus,
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
... 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Do you suppose God holds you to a standard to that which he himself does not abide?Blessings only come through faith in his grace, not right standing and self righteous effort.

So in Matthew 25 when Jesus says you'll burn in hell if you don't help your impoverished brothers, that totally had nothing to do with your actions and works.

And when 1 John says that he who claims to know Christ but does not obey his commands is a "liar", he must have been lying of course.

After all, the True Church wouldn't actually obey any of Jesus's many teachings regarding their behavior as a conditional to avoid the fire and enter the Kingdom and "Strive to enter through the narrow gate" or anything.

So by this logic, the very idea of having to worry about any behavioral choices renders one outside of the "True Church", and anyone who believes its just a matter of faith, which Jesus and James and to a degree even Paul warns against, is to be in the "True Church". That makes total sense.

 

[Walkntune]

So in Matthew 25 when Jesus says you'll burn in hell if you don't help your impoverished brothers, that totally had nothing to do with your actions and works.

And when 1 John says that he who claims to know Christ but does not obey his commands is a "liar", he must have been lying of course.

After all, the True Church wouldn't actually obey any of Jesus's many teachings regarding their behavior as a conditional to avoid the fire and enter the Kingdom and "Strive to enter through the narrow gate" or anything.

So by this logic, the very idea of having to worry about any behavioral choices renders one outside of the "True Church", and anyone who believes its just a matter of faith, which Jesus and James and to a degree even Paul warns against, is to be in the "True Church". That makes total sense.

Nope!All of the effort and work comes from the Love of Christ that dwells in you and not that of yourself.
You want God to have all of the glory, you must let him do all of the work.
You know why Cains offering was not acceptable to God. It was because it came from the fruit of the ground. When man fell in the garden his curse was that he would now have to work the ground in the sweat of his brow in his own efforts. God wants you out of the curse of your own effort and back into his provision. This is the true gospel.
If you like we can discuss what it means to be delivered from the bondage of being a slave in Egypt to being delivered inpo the promiseland? Its all the same gospel.

 

[McBell]

have you ever found anyone other then Jesus and his apostles who have raised the dead???

I think that is a miracle which only Gods power can perform because the power of 'life' is with God and no one else.

I have heard of people who claim, just like Jesus and his apostles, to have raised the dead.

I do not believe them either.

 

[Shermana]

Nope!All of the effort and work comes from the Love of Christ that dwells in you and not that of yourself.
You want God to have all of the glory, you must let him do all of the work.
You know why Cains offering was not acceptable to God. It was because it came from the fruit of the ground. When man fell in the garden his curse was that he would now have to work the ground in the sweat of his brow in his own efforts. God wants you out of the curse of your own effort and back into his provision. This is the true gospel.

So unless I'm mistaken, you believe that it one believes he has to actually obey what Jesus teaches as Jesus instructs, and if he "strives for the narrow gate", and actively makes an effort to do what he thinks is right, that he is not part of the True Church? And that the "True Church" is those who don't think they actually have to do anything but have faith that God will do all the work for them? Interesting. But it contradicts the entirety of 99.9999% of the NT.

So the "True Gospel" involves not actually obeying Jesus. Totally makes sense.

Now perhaps you'd like to actually address the issue in Matthew 25 this time?

 

[Walkntune]

So unless I'm mistaken, you believe that it one believes he has to actually obey what Jesus teaches as Jesus instructs, and if he "strives for the narrow gate", and actively makes an effort to do what he thinks is right, that he is not part of the True Church? And that the "True Church" is those who don't think they actually have to do anything but have faith that God will do all the work for them? Interesting. But it contradicts the entirety of 99.9999% of the NT.

So the "True Gospel" involves not actually obeying Jesus. Totally makes sense.

Now perhaps you'd like to actually address the issue in Matthew 25 this time?

I believe if you are as Peter tand take your eyes off of Christ and put them on your own walk and self efforts ,then you will sink!
I believe if man tries to do what is right in himself and by his own efforts then he is operating in the knowledge of good and evil.The same tree Adam ate from which caused his fall.
I don't address scriptures out of context.Truth must come from using the whole Bible in context.Why I take you to the NT then back it up with the OT.

 

[Shermana]

Well if you go by the whole scripture in context, why don't you start with Matthew 25 where Jesus says those who don't help their impoverished brothers in need will burn in hell.

 

[Walkntune]

Well if you go by the whole scripture in context, why don't you start with Matthew 25 where Jesus says those who don't help their impoverished brothers in need will burn in hell.

Already answered but must have eyes to see. We operate in the effort of the love of Chist that dwells in those who believe.Now you answer me please. Why did Moses not make it into the promiseland and why did Israel have to be born again(new generation)?

 

[Shermana]

Already answered but must have eyes to see. We operate in the effort of the love of Chist that dwells in those who believe.Now you answer me please. Why did Moses not make it into the promiseland and why did Israel have to be born again(new generation)?

Already answered? Must have eyes to see?

Are you saying that your non-answers somehow explained the answer and one has to have some obscure vision to comprehend your way of understanding from what you said that doesn't actually relate to the issue ? Why don't you try explaining for everyone here how your answer applies to what Jesus most clearly said about how your actions and lack of actions can cast you into hellfire. Perhaps it's you who might be in need of eyes to see what the text most directly says? Or perhaps you simply don't want to see Jesus's plain words that go against what you're comfortable with?

Moses didn't make it because he struck the rock in anger out of frustration in dealing with the Israelites, instead of speaking to it. The Israelites were barred because the entire generation was wicked and stiff necked even after directly seeing miracle after miracle. Why don't you explain how that remotely is related to your non-action belief in not actually having to listen to and obey Jesus?

 

[Walkntune]

Already answered? Must have eyes to see?

Are you saying that your non-answers somehow explained the answer and one has to have some obscure vision to comprehend your way of understanding from what you said that doesn't actually relate to the issue ? Why don't you try explaining for everyone here how your answer applies to what Jesus most clearly said about how your actions and lack of actions can cast you into hellfire. Perhaps it's you who might be in need of eyes to see what the text most directly says? Or perhaps you simply don't want to see Jesus's plain words that go against what you're comfortable with?

Moses didn't make it because he struck the rock in anger out of frustration in dealing with the Israelites, instead of speaking to it. The Israelites were barred because the entire generation was wicked and stiff necked even after directly seeing miracle after miracle. Why don't you explain how that remotely is related to your non-action belief in not actually having to listen to and obey Jesus?

Moses did not miss the promiseland because he struck the rock with anger and frustration. This is why he missed the promiseland.
12 And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.
You see Moses tried to mix his own efforts in with that of God and so God was displeased with his lack of belief in trusting in Him alone.
Now another question Israel was stiff necked true but what was it they kept looking back too and what were they looking away from?
You ask what this has to do with the Gospel? The whole Gospel is the redeption of man faliing from Gods provisions into the curse of his own self efforts by working the ground by the sweat of his brow and then being redeemed back into Gods provision.

 

[Shermana]

Moses did not miss the promiseland because he struck the rock with anger and frustration. This is why he missed the promiseland.
12 And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.
Now another question Israel was stiff necked true but what was it they kept looking back too and what were they looking away from?

Yes, he didn't believe God as was demonstrated by him striking the Rock instead of speaking to it. Thus he did not sanctify God by doing what he told them but instead spoke harshly to them as if it was he himself who was to make the Rock water.

They were looking away from the Promise of the Promised land and wanted to go back to Egypt because of the comfortable life they had as slaves there.

Perhaps you'd like to explain how this relates to the subjects you're dodging from and providing non-answers to.

 

[Shermana]

You see Moses tried to mix his own efforts in with that of God and so God was displeased with his lack of belief in trusting in Him alone.

You added this in edit.

So how does that fit with the idea that the Israelites were constantly punished for refusing to obey what God said for them to do? Are you not understanding that I'm saying Jesus said one must obey his teachings and God's commandments? By your logic, actually doing that would involve "mixing in your own efforts".

Besides, can you provide a single link or source that says that Moses "mixed in his own efforts' as the reason for this?

Even if that were the case, your point would only stand if I said that one must do something outside of obeying what Jesus and God commanded.

All I'm saying is that it's dependent on doing what Jesus and God taught and commanded. You are saying this is the incorrect thing to do. You're saying it's wrong to actually strive to take action and obey what they taught. Your own example through your own logic proves that obedience to God's commandments is what is necessary. Let me know if you need further clarification.

 

[Walkntune]

Yes, he didn't believe God as was demonstrated by him striking the Rock instead of speaking to it. Thus he did not sanctify God by doing what he told them but instead spoke harshly to them as if it was he himself who was to make the Rock water.

They were looking away from the Promise of the Promised land and wanted to go back to Egypt because of the comfortable life they had as slaves there.

Perhaps you'd like to explain how this relates to the subjects you're dodging from and providing non-answers to.

So they were more comfortable in the bondage of being a slave in the bondage of their own efforts because they were fearful and had not faith to trust in the provisions of God.
Already explained. The Gospel is coming out od self effort and into Gods provisions.

 

[Shermana]

B

So they were more comfortable in the bondage of being a slave in the bondage of their own efforts because they were fearful and had not faith to trust in the provisions of God.
Already explained. The Gospel is coming out od self effort and into Gods provisions.

No you didn't explain. Jesus was quite clear that in Matthew 25, if you don't take action to help your impoverished brothers, you burn in hell. Your explanation doesn't remotely even discuss this.

You're right that they didn't have faith in the provisions of God. And the provisions of God were dependent on their....(Drum roll) actions and obedience to his commandments. Which was what Jesus taught. But you're dead wrong about it being "bondage of their own efforts". You're ultimately trying to say that any attempt to even do what is said for them to do is somehow wrong.

Now if you'll just flat out admit that you don't believe you actually have to obey Jesus's teachings and that you think its wrong to think you have to do so, we can leave it at that.

 

[Walkntune]

You added this in edit.

So how does that fit with the idea that the Israelites were constantly punished for refusing to obey what God said for them to do? Are you not understanding that I'm saying Jesus said one must obey his teachings and God's commandments? By your logic, actually doing that would involve "mixing in your own efforts".

Besides, can you provide a single link or source that says that Moses "mixed in his own efforts' as the reason for this?

Even if that were the case, your point would only stand if I said that one must do something outside of obeying what Jesus and God commanded.

All I'm saying is that it's dependent on doing what Jesus and God taught and commanded. You are saying this is the incorrect thing to do. You're saying it's wrong to actually strive to take action and obey what they taught. Your own example through your own logic proves that obedience to God's commandments is what is necessary. Let me know if you need further clarification.

Jesus says if you love me you will obey my commandments.This is a statement of promise from his love and not a commandment to prove or recieve love. Go back to the sermon on the mount and see what he explains about love.
Its not a matter of what you do or do not obey but whether it is from your own efforts or of the efforts from the love provided to you from faith in God.It is whether you trust in the righteousness of Christ or your own self righteousness(self efforts).

 

[Walkntune]

B

No you didn't explain. Jesus was quite clear that in Matthew 25, if you don't take action to help your impoverished brothers, you burn in hell. Your explanation doesn't remotely even discuss this.

You're right that they didn't have faith in the provisions of God. And the provisions of God were dependent on their....(Drum roll) actions and obedience to his commandments. Which was what Jesus taught. But you're dead wrong about it being "bondage of their own efforts". You're ultimately trying to say that any attempt to even do what is said for them to do is somehow wrong.

Now if you'll just flat out admit that you don't believe you actually have to obey Jesus's teachings and that you think its wrong to think you have to do so, we can leave it at that.

They were in bondage as slaves to the egyptians. You better believe it was the sweat of their own brow they were in bondage too.
They kept looking back to this bondage instead of trusting in Gods provision but guess what? No man who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is worthy of the kingdom of God.

 

[Walkntune]

B

No you didn't explain. Jesus was quite clear that in Matthew 25, if you don't take action to help your impoverished brothers, you burn in hell. Your explanation doesn't remotely even discuss this.

You're right that they didn't have faith in the provisions of God. And the provisions of God were dependent on their....(Drum roll) actions and obedience to his commandments. Which was what Jesus taught. But you're dead wrong about it being "bondage of their own efforts". You're ultimately trying to say that any attempt to even do what is said for them to do is somehow wrong.

Now if you'll just flat out admit that you don't believe you actually have to obey Jesus's teachings and that you think its wrong to think you have to do so, we can leave it at that.

Funny how God was given provisions even long before they had the law and afterwards even though they were disobedient? Hmmmmm? Might want to take another guess?

 

[Shermana]

Jesus says if you love me you will obey my commandments.This is a statement of promise from his love and not a commandment to prove or recieve love. Go back to the sermon on the mount and see what he explains about love.
Its not a matter of what you do or do not obey but whether it is from your own efforts or of the efforts from the love provided to you from faith in God.It is whether you trust in the righteousness of Christ or your own self righteousness(self efforts).

The Sermon on the mount includes that anyone who teaches to break the least of the commandments shall be called the least in the kingdom. How is it a statement of promise of his love? It's a statement that if you love Jesus, you'll do what he teaches to do. Which involves obedience to the Mosaic Law as well as things like helping your poor brother in need. Except when it comes to helping your poor brothers in need, he says you'll BURN IN HELL, let me repeat that BURN IN HELL AND NOT BE SAVED if you refuse to do it. That is 100% inescapably all about action and behavior. Just like how he warns to not use your hand or foot or eye or whatnot in a way which causes you to burn in the fire. Your minimalist theology involves ignoring essentially everything Jesus says.

Your interpretation of "Trust in the righteousness of Christ" equates to "Don't actually listen to what he says when he says do this or that or you will BURN IN HELL", and your interpretation of "Trust in your own righteousness" is "Actually listen to what Jesus says and believe in his teachings like when he says do this or that or you will BURN IN HELL".

The righteousness of Christ we are to trust in is that he was the prophecied Guilt offering, who serves as a sacrifice for your sins. This does not mean you get to ignore and get out of doing what he teaches to do. Quite the opposite, Hebrews 10:26-29 says if you continue to sin, you have nothing but "fiery idnignation" to look forward to.

Jesus is quite clear that the "doers of Lawlessness" and those who don't obey the Will of God will be cast out and rejected.

Your repeated attempt to associate any concept of believing there's works involved with your faith or adherence to believing in what Jesus taught flies in the face of virtually everything the NT says. To say it's not a matter of what you do or don't do or obey or don't obey may be comfortable to those who don't like the idea of having to make an effort or control themselves, but it's not at all what Jesus teaches. It's not even what Paul teaches. It's not what James teaches. It's not what Jude teaches, it's especially not what John teaches.

I don't know how else to explain it other than to post a wall of verses that explicitly explain what Jesus means and what he says, and you'd probably just ignore them like how you keep ignoring Matthew 25.

Funny how God was given provisions even long before they had the law and afterwards even though they were disobedient? Hmmmmm? Might want to take another guess?

What does that mean and what does it have to do with your point? Are you saying that God blessed the Israelites before he gave them the Law? Why did he put them into brutal forced labor and bondage int the first place? Just to be a jerk?

Funny how Abraham "obeyed his statutes, judgments, and ordinances".