• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What church is the true church?

Shermana

Heretic
Sure. What did they believe? How did the "untrue" first Christians get control of the Church away from them? Where are those followers of the original believers today? And, why don't other Christians believe them to be the "true" church?

I cannot say for 100% sure everything they believed. However, I can say with 100% confidence in my opinion that they believed that obedience to the Torah was necessary for Salvation of the soul (and body on this Earth), and that Lawlessness (which in Jewish terms meant going against Mosaic Law) would lead one to the fire. This is demonstrated in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus, which is often misinterpreted to mean just believe in Jesus as Messiah (which involves ignoring the context of it being right after Luke 16:17 and the idea of "Moses and the prophets" not meaning their actual teachings but only the vague Messianic prophecies). I believe they believed that Jesus's death on the cross may have served as the Guilt Offering of Isaiah 53:10 and as a Great Sacrifice for all past sins, but not future sins. I believe they believed in strict behavioral standards. That when Jesus said to the Rich man "Obey the commandments" as the key to Eternal Life, it was not some cheap trick at word play, and that the ORIGINAL version of the story in Gospel to the Hebrews says that the Rich Man had totally neglected to give to the poor and thus, when Jesus said to sell everything he had, it wasn't encumbent on EVERYONE to do that but just for him to make up for all the lack of obedience to this major commandment. I believe their beliefs may in fact be codified to a degree in the Didache, and their descendents perhaps in the Clementine Literature. I believe they thought that Jesus "Only came for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel", and while gentiles were to accept Jesus as the lord of the Earth, his teachings were not meant to be catered to them or watered down for them, and that things like the Council of Jerusalem (And Acts 21:25) were total interpolations, as the notorious Tubingen school believed. I believe much light on the early beliefs was shed by the Tubingeners, and Christian Conservative scholars never really defeated their opinions but merely swept them under the rug hoping they'd go away. Which they were successful at doing for the most part.

I believe they were very works-based, believed in a sort of "Karma" in which all men are judged by their actions for good or worse, just like Judaism, and were basically just a branch of early Jewish thought, like the Essenes who I think may have been similar to them in many ways.

It's also important to know that James the Just, leader of the early Christians, was known as "Jacob the Gnostic" in the Talmud. Now that brings up an interesting can of worms: What exactly were the original Gnostics who were Jewish Christians? (As opposed to the later gentile Gnostic schools). I believe that there is a whole world to the beliefs of the early Jewish Christians that has been lost to history, perhaps deliberately, which only recently have bits and pieces been discovered to the rest of the world for viewing. For example, what we see in the Nag Hammadi literature may be various sects' interpretations and revisionings of what was once an original Jewish-"Gnostic"-Christian movement led by the Jerusalem Church, which wasn't really "Gnostic" in the sense of Medieval Albigensians and Cathars but more like Essene-ish Jews.

Where they are today? Good question. I believe a small, tiny sect that retained the truth survived and stayed underground in Israel after the carnage of 70 A.D. and was forced into hiding by one authority or another. Proving that effectively is not something I can do at this time, and I believe that there's good reason to think many documents about the early Nazarenes and Ebionites may have been deliberately destroyed.

Why don't other Christians regard this Nazarene Torah obedient belief to be the True Church? Well, where do I begin? First, Paul. Second, Paul. Third, Orthodox Teaching. Fourth, Orthodox teaching. Fifth, orthodox Teaching. Sixth, Paul. Catch my drift?

However, there's more to it. It's also about a convenience mentality, a "Supercessionist" idea of replacing the Jews, a militant misunderstanding of the Scriptures, insistence on Orthodox teaching and Paul's views, herd mentality, unwillingness to accept basic historical fact that goes against confirmaiton bias, willful ignorance of the "Old Testament" and why they even believe Jesus was considered Messiah in the first place, the comfort of being "saved" without actually doing or believing what Jesus taught, various dodgy theologies that radically twist the scripture but are nonetheless standard, an irrational aversion to some of the better NT "Apocrypha" (And OT Pseudipigrapha, some of which even the early Church Fathers went by including the NT Apocrypha the early church fathers went by), a reliance on appeal to authority of the orthodox scholars and theologians who have a vested power interest, you get what I'm saying? Need I go on? Personal issues may play just as much of a role in dismissing such concepts and history as the authority of the doctrine itself. What exactly causes people to not spend a day or two researching the roots of their beliefs apart from their own ecclesiastical paramaters?
 
Last edited:

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
Could we assume that the "True" Christians were the originals and then look at what made them peculiar? (Cough Jewish sect cough)
Sure and we can look at the fact the laws were given to them not so they could be delivered out of bondage as we know God had already delivered them from the bondage of Egypt before he gave the laws.He delivered them by his own grace and not that of their performance.I love to discuss the truth of law and grace from the stand point of the Tora if you are interested.Lets discuss it from the stand point of the Jewish sect.Laws were given out of grace as a stumbling block to man to show him were he fails in his own effort and could only enter the promiseland through faith in God as their deliverer. Its the same reason God took man out of Eden.So he would not eat of the tree of life from his own stand point of the knowledge of good and evil and make a name for himself by his own efforts.God does not want man to make a name for himself in his own efforts so he will destoy any tower of Babel man attempts to build.The law is to reveal to man he falls short in his own efforts.If you want to start with Genesis and discuss the true church that would be great.
Gods plan of remption started the moment man fell in the garden and the fact the ground was cursed was not that of punishment but was grace. Remember he cursed it for mans sake.Same reason the law was given to be a stumbling block to man trying to stand by his own efforts instead of faith in God as his deliverer.The moment man fell it was into the grace and plan of redemption of that of a loving father.Good thing Abram recognised this fact because when he went to deliver Lot from captivity he refused any payment for the actions of his own efforts as he didn't want it said that his provisions did not come from the Lord.I could take you from Genesis to Revelation and its all the same.
 
Last edited:

Shermana

Heretic
Same reason the law was given to be a stumbling block to man trying to stand by his own efforts instead of faith in God as his deliverer.
So you believe the Law was given to the Israelites for them to not have to obey it? God gave them a stumbling block and didn't really mean for them to follow it when he said "You shall live (survive) by it? I asked you before (along with a lot of other sidestepped questions) why the Israelites kept getting punished. Why was the man stoned to death for chopping and carrying wood on the Sabbath? Was Moses wrong to decree that?
 

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
So you believe the Law was given to the Israelites for them to not have to obey it? God gave them a stumbling block and didn't really mean for them to follow it when he said "You shall live (survive) by it? I asked you before (along with a lot of other sidestepped questions) why the Israelites kept getting punished. Why was the man stoned to death for chopping and carrying wood on the Sabbath? Was Moses wrong to decree that?
It was given so they would try to obey it and fail.When a man sees the end of himself and his own efforts he waill call out to God for his salvation. If man could have obeyed it and become righteous through the law there would be no need for Jesus.They were punished because they were walking by the law of sin and death.Because they were under this law they did not enter the promiseland.They had to die off and Irael had to be reborn a new generation and crossed over the river Jordan by faith and face the giants of the land.If he did not fall by the law or be judged by them he would not come to the end of himself.
 
Last edited:

Shermana

Heretic
It was given so they would try to obey it and fail.If man could have obeyed it and become righteous through the law there would be no need for Jesus.They were punished because they were walking by the law of sin and death.Because they were under this law they did not enter the promiseland.They had to die off and Irael had to be reborn a new generation and crossed over the river Jordan by faith and face the giants of the land.

Okay, you wanna start by trying answering if Moses was wrong for putting the sabbath breaker to death? That may help you unravel how off the wall your interpretation is.

Interesting that you think they didn't enter the Promised Land because they were under the Law. Are you saying the generation that entered it was NOT under the Law?

Have you even read the OT by chance? Have you read any of the prophets? Are you unaware that Moses killed King Og of the giants?

And do you have any links from any Christians or groups that think like this or is this entirely your own idea? I've never heard this before except from you.
 
Last edited:

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
Okay, you wanna start by trying answering if Moses was wrong for putting the sabbath breaker to death? That may help you unravel how off the wall your interpretation is.

Interesting that you think they didn't enter the Promised Land because they were under the Law. Are you saying the generation that entered it was NOT under the Law?

Have you even read the OT by chance? Have you read any of the prophets?

And do you have any links from any Christians or groups that think like this or is this entirely your own idea? I've never heard this before except from you.
Those who entered crossed by faith.Its not that they were under law that they did not cross but that they depended on their own efforts instead of the provisions of God.They kept looking back to Egypt (Egypt was the bondage they were in of their own efforts and sweat of being a slave)instead of trusting God, Remember in Genesis when man fell it was out of the provisions of God into having to work the land by the sweat of his brow.Gods plan of redemption is for man to rely on Him as the provider and not their own efforts.
I don't agree with many of the Christian churches as they are in much of their self efforts as well.You probably won't find links as this is my personal walk.
When Christians operate in a standard to be pleasing to the Lord we are creating a separation and standard of self performance that we are projecting on the world to abide by.When we learn to meet with all sinners by their standards and not our own and love them right where they are without baseing it on their performance of right and wrong with grace being a payment of due reward, then we come to the true revelation of who Christ is and his unconditional love and what it means to operate in this love.
 
Last edited:

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Shermana, What I appreciate about you is that you don't follow the leader, the misguided leaders, the traditional leaders, the orthodox leaders etc. You said:
I believe they were very works-based, believed in a sort of "Karma" in which all men are judged by their actions for good or worse,
Since I like how James argues for "I'll show you my faith by my works" I believe any religious person should follow the behavioral rules of their religion. In Judaism and Christianity trusting in God is rule #1, any "good" behavior should be in compliance with the rest the of the rules. I don't understand those that argue that Jews were trying to obey the rules under their own power and not trusting in God? Which takes us to Paul.
Why don't other Christians regard this Nazarene Torah obedient belief to be the True Church? Well, where do I begin? First, Paul. Second, Paul. Third, Orthodox Teaching. Fourth, Orthodox teaching. Fifth, orthodox Teaching. Sixth, Paul.
It seems to me Paul had to get rid of the Law to get gentiles converts. It is easy and comfortable for Christians to follow what Paul teaches.

Walkntune:
The law is to reveal to man he falls short in his own efforts.
Shermana:
God gave them a stumbling block and didn't really mean for them to follow it when he said "You shall live (survive) by it?
Walkntune:
It was given so they would try to obey it and fail
The Law served its purpose and now we are under grace? Yet, Christianity does have laws and rules of behavior. Jesus said when one person looks upon another with lust in their heart, they have committed adultery in their heart. Has any Christian, ever, been able to follow this rule? So sure, if God is going to "save" anybody, He is going to have to "pardon" people and judge their hearts. All of us fall short of the mark, sin. Isn't that the same thing He had to do with the Jews? Some followed the Law out of love for God some didn't.

Another commandment of Jesus that is impossible to follow, getting angry at someone is the same as murder. Who doesn't break that rule? Even if you say that you repent, what do you tell God next time you get angry or look at a person with lust? Christians aren't doing anything different than a Jew. They do their best to follow God and His rules of behavior and pray for mercy and forgiveness.
Shermana said:
What exactly causes people to not spend a day or two researching the roots of their beliefs apart from their own ecclesiastical paramaters?
Getting to the roots is so important. I like your arguments Shermana. However, I personally believe all religions had important laws and rules for their people, but times change and religions change, the old laws don't necessarily work anymore.So it's hard for me to think that the Law was 100% from God. For the Christians, a people that did believe the Law was from God, to essentially dump all of the Law, makes me wonder if any of it was true in the first place. Why should I trust any religion, when I can't trust if God is being honest? If God says Do these laws and live? and then later says No, they were only to show you that you can't follow them?

What if God says: I told you to trust in my Son Jesus. You failed. You can't do it can you. You want to. Many of you made a valiant effort, but you fell short. Only the true believers will be saved. Of which none of you are. Your faith is like filthy rags to me. You all said Lord, Lord but didn't follow my commandments. If you really believed and really loved me you would have followed my Law of Love. So saved by grace isn't exactly what I meant. What I really wanted you to do is obey my Law of Love and love me and each other--No more grace, love one another or else. Do you think you can get it right this time?

I just realized what I really believe--The true church is in the heart. For me that means beyond doctrines and dogmas, which are walls much worse than the ones made out of bricks and stone. I only wish I went there more often (I'm usually to busy lusting and getting angry).
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
There are nearly ten thousand flavors of Christianity today. When we add to the mix the churches that did not survive to the present date, the number of churches are even higher. What criteria should a person use to determine the true church? I define the “true church” as a church that teaches an accurate teaching of Jesus Christ. If you know of such a church, please explain in detail why that church is the true church.


One must look at the facts of the servants of the true God in the ot and nt---

Moses,Abraham,David,Elijah,Isaiah all served the true allmighty God-- every israelite down to this day while serving the true God served a single being God named YHWH(Jehovah)

Jesus taught at John 17:1-6 who the true God is--He taught that the one who sent him( John 5:30) is THE ONLY TRUE GOD--verse 6 = YHWH( Jehovah) Paul backed Jesus truth up at 1 cor 8:6)

Proving that centuries ago at catholicism councils many error teachings entered-- then about 1000 years later when they decided to let Gods word be translated into the language of the day--many errors were instilled into their translations trying to make it look like a trinity god. But in reality the teaching of a trinity god is actually calling Jesus and Paul liars. This is where the trinity teachers live-2 cor 11:12-15) God warned all of you--GET OUT OF HER.
 

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
I just realized what I really believe--The true church is in the heart. For me that means beyond doctrines and dogmas, which are walls much worse than the ones made out of bricks and stone. I only wish I went there more often (I'm usually to busy lusting and getting angry).
He took our heart of stone( the law written in stone) and gave us a heart of flesh(Jesus came in the flesh).
 

Shermana

Heretic
Those who entered crossed by faith.Its not that they were under law that they did not cross but that they depended on their own efforts instead of the provisions of God.They kept looking back to Egypt (Egypt was the bondage they were in of their own efforts and sweat of being a slave)instead of trusting God, Remember in Genesis when man fell it was out of the provisions of God into having to work the land by the sweat of his brow.Gods plan of redemption is for man to rely on Him as the provider and not their own efforts.
I don't agree with many of the Christian churches as they are in much of their self efforts as well.You probably won't find links as this is my personal walk.
When Christians operate in a standard to be pleasing to the Lord we are creating a separation and standard of self performance that we are projecting on the world to abide by.When we learn to meet with all sinners by their standards and not our own and love them right where they are without baseing it on their performance of right and wrong with grace being a payment of due reward, then we come to the true revelation of who Christ is and his unconditional love and what it means to operate in this love.

Third time asking: Was Moses wrong in stoning the Sabbath breaker to death? Why did God punish the Israelites so often?
 

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
Third time asking: Was Moses wrong in stoning the Sabbath breaker to death? Why did God punish the Israelites so often?
God gave man law to make him come to the end of himself in self effort.The law is only effective if it has accountability.
 

Shermana

Heretic
God gave man law to make him come to the end of himself in self effort.The law is only effective if it has accountability.

Fourth time asking: Was Moses wrong to stone the Sabbath breaker to death? Why did God punish the Israelites so often?
 

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
Fourth time asking: Was Moses wrong to stone the Sabbath breaker to death? Why did God punish the Israelites so often?
Why can you not see the answer in the post before this?This is good to show that the law does not give life but only brings judgement and death. Nobody died all the way from Egypt to the giving of the law.God delievered them out of bondage by his own grace.They yet murmered and complained and kept looking back to Egypt instead of God as their deliverer and provider so he gave them the law since they wanted to continue in their own efforts to show them they could not be delivered in their own efforts. Once the law was Given three thousand die.On the day on Pentacost three thousand were saved and given life.Difference between law and grace.They were underlaw and bound by law so lived according to law but not to make it into the promiseland.Because of their self efforts they had to wander in the wilderness and die off and not enter the promiseland.This is the fruit the law brings.The next generation entered the promiseland but it was by facing giants that made them look like grasshoppers.A true story of faith.
Moses was just in following the law as the law in and of itself was perfect.Its purpose however was the same as the curse on the ground in genesis. To cause man not to be able to depend solely on his self effort and to have to look to God as their provider and deliverer.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Why can you not see the answer in the post before this?This is good to show that the law does not give life but only brings judgement and death. Nobody died all the way from Egypt to the giving of the law.God delievered them out of bondage by his own grace.They yet murmered and complained and kept looking back to Egypt instead of God as their deliverer and provider so he gave them the law since they wanted to continue in their own efforts to show them they could not be delivered in their own efforts. Once the law was Given three thousand die.On the day on Pentacost three thousand were saved and given life.Difference between law and grace.They were underlaw and bound by law so lived according to law but not to make it into the promiseland.Because of their self efforts they had to wander in the wilderness and die off and not enter the promiseland.This is the fruit the law brings.The next generation entered the promiseland but it was by facing giants that made them look like grasshoppers.A true story of faith.
Moses was just in following the law as the law in and of itself was perfect.Its purpose however was the same as the curse on the ground in genesis. To cause man not to be able to depend solely on his self effort and to have to look to God as their provider and deliverer.

Maybe because you didn't actually answer last time? Now you're saying that Moses was just in following the Law. Now perhaps you'd like to answer why the Israelites were punished so often?

Was Ezra wrong in forcing the Israelites returning from exile to divorce their gentile wives?

This is the fruit the law brings.

Have you even read the prophets? You're saying the fruit of obeying what God commanded is to be killed off because it leads people to think they are doing the right thing from what God told them and specifically sent prophets to tell them?

Also it seems you're unaware that Moses himself slayed the King of the Giants, og.
 

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
Maybe because you didn't actually answer last time? Now you're saying that Moses was just in following the Law. Now perhaps you'd like to answer why the Israelites were punished so often?

Was Ezra wrong in forcing the Israelites returning from exile to divorce their gentile wives?



Have you even read the prophets? You're saying the fruit of obeying what God commanded is to be killed off because it leads people to think they are doing the right thing from what God told them and specifically sent prophets to tell them?

Also it seems you're unaware that Moses himself slayed the King of the Giants, og.
I am telling you exactly what happened in scripture. If you want to add other writings then you are in a confused mess anyways.
Revelations 22
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
 
Last edited:

Shermana

Heretic
I am telling you exactly what happened in scripture. If you want to add other writings then you are in a confused mess anyways.
Revelations 22
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Ummmn no, you're not saying what happened in scripture, you're saying your own spin on it that completely goes against what scripture actually says and that's why you keep avoiding my questions and giving me non-answers. You didn't even know that Moses slayed the King of the Giants himself.
 
Last edited:

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Have you even read the prophets? You're saying the fruit of obeying what God commanded is to be killed off because it leads people to think they are doing the right thing from what God told them and specifically sent prophets to tell them?

Many Christians don't value the OT, watch some preachers and it becomes quite clear.
 

Walkntune

Well-Known Member
Ummmn no, you're not saying what happened in scripture, you're saying your own spin on it that completely goes against what scripture actually says and that's why you keep avoiding my questions and giving me non-answers. You didn't even know that Moses slayed the King of the Giants himself.
Here is my challenge for you. Show me this post you wrote as true and not just another one supporting my point of view.How is what I am saying going against what the scripture is saying? This is Moses slaying the giant.
My view is Moses believes God so overcomes his fear and therefore the work is another deliverance that comes from the Lord just like all works and deliverances of God are.Heres the verse.


34 And the Lord said unto Moses, Fear him not: for I have delivered him into thy hand, and all his people, and his land; and thou shalt do to him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon.

Only time Israel ever won a war was when it came through belief by the deliverance from God but when they opereated in their own efforts and strength then they would loose.
The battles belong to the Lord!Its just another testimony of being delivered by faith in God as the deliverer.Same with crossing the Jordan, building an ark on dry land, or any other story you want to discuss.
 
Last edited:

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Many Christians don't value the OT
That's right. It's old. It's difficult to read. It's impossible to understand. It is easier to let a Christian "Bible" scholar tell me what it means, and that is the problem. They are more than happy to tell me what it means. It means Jesus. I can see that so clearly if all I go by is what the Christians tell me.

However, Shermana tells me different. All the Jews tell me different. If I go beyond the Bible, my Buddhist friends tell me different. Same with all the people I know from all the non-Bible centered religions. Good people, but all wrong? I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. They are smart, spiritual, devoted people. They have found a truth that works for them.

For someone to imply that there is such a thing as "one true" church usually means that they are from some sort of Protestant denomination, or even better, a "non-denominational" evangelistic church that believes in Jesus. I don't know about you, Disciple, but I'm questioning all of it. You seem to have some pretty good questions yourself. What do you think? For me the more I learn about what Judaism really believed, the more I don't see a smooth connection between them and Christianity. As far as a true church? The good people in any religion are my "true" church. The rest of it, with all its dogmas and doctrines, is just commentary.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
That's right. It's old. It's difficult to read. It's impossible to understand. It is easier to let a Christian "Bible" scholar tell me what it means, and that is the problem. They are more than happy to tell me what it means. It means Jesus. I can see that so clearly if all I go by is what the Christians tell me.

However, Shermana tells me different. All the Jews tell me different. If I go beyond the Bible, my Buddhist friends tell me different. Same with all the people I know from all the non-Bible centered religions. Good people, but all wrong? I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. They are smart, spiritual, devoted people. They have found a truth that works for them.

For someone to imply that there is such a thing as "one true" church usually means that they are from some sort of Protestant denomination, or even better, a "non-denominational" evangelistic church that believes in Jesus. I don't know about you, Disciple, but I'm questioning all of it. You seem to have some pretty good questions yourself. What do you think? For me the more I learn about what Judaism really believed, the more I don't see a smooth connection between them and Christianity. As far as a true church? The good people in any religion are my "true" church. The rest of it, with all its dogmas and doctrines, is just commentary.

I share your skepticism of Christian churches, (I don't even belong to a church, nor have a "denomination"), I don't think that Judaism applies to my beliefs /I worship Jesus as God/, so to me some of the Tanach is invaluable to my faith, though I don't follow any of the cultural or most of the theology in the OT.
That being said I don't even think that baptism or various other 'standard' "Christian" beliefs apply to my faith either, I think they are/were added to create some form of cohesion between the faiths. So, basically I do agree with you about the "smooth transition" idea, I don't see it either.
 
Top