What church is the true church?

[Walkntune]

I share your skepticism of Christian churches, (I don't even belong to a church, nor have a "denomination"), I don't think that Judaism applies to my beliefs /I worship Jesus as God/, so to me some of the Tanach is invaluable to my faith, though I don't follow any of the cultural or most of the theology in the OT.
That being said I don't even think that baptism or various other 'standard' "Christian" beliefs apply to my faith either, I think they are/were added to create some form of cohesion between the faiths. So, basically I do agree with you about the "smooth transition" idea, I don't see it either.

I share the same skepticism from many Christian churches who seem to walk a self serving plan of salvation.
When we truly come to understand the saving grace of Jesus and put our trust in this faith, then we stand in a confidence knowing that our salvation is solely based in the provision of God and his sacrifice and not that of our own performance. As we recognise this we learn to die to ourselves no longer self seeking for our own life and salvation and focus on a love and conviction from Christ that is not self serving but has all of the best interests of the kingdom at heart.This is true love and the true Gospel. This is doing the true will of God that none should perish.We become a true branch from the vine.

 

[CG Didymus]

I share the same skepticism from many Christian churches who seem to walk a self serving plan of salvation.
When we truly come to understand the saving grace of Jesus and put our trust in this faith, then we stand in a confidence knowing that our salvation is solely based in the provision of God and his sacrifice and not that of our own performance. As we recognise this we learn to die to ourselves no longer self seeking for our own life and salvation and focus on a love and conviction from Christ that is not self serving but has all of the best interests of the kingdom at heart.This is true love and the true Gospel. This is doing the true will of God that none should perish.We become a true branch from the vine.

Of course that's beautiful and very real. But, what about the Jew that believes in loving God with all his/her heart and loving his/her neighbor as him/herself? Aren't they, in theory, loving God first and then they follow his Commandments? And speaking of "in theory" Who can give their hearts 100% a 100% of the time? The Jew and the Christian does their best to surrender themselves to God or Jesus first, then does their best to do the good works. But, since, they both aren't perfect, they both sometimes act out of the self. When they do, they both have to come back humbly and repent and act in the spirit the next time.

I've "given" my heart to God in two different religions. Once as a Baha'i. I believed in God. I surrendered myself to God. I did what a good Baha'i is supposed to do, and it felt good. It felt real. It wasn't coming from me. It was from God. Then I got "saved" the Christian way and gave my heart to Jesus. I surrendered my will to him, to love him and serve him, to bear good fruit in his name and for his glory. The feeling was the same. The common denominator was that I believed and surrendered my will to a greater truth than myself. So what is the truth? It is in the heart. I'll bet an atheist that does a selfless deed feels the same thing. But, unlike the atheist, I feel that power and all-encompassing love that fills me when I do a selfless act is from some kind of spiritual reality. Whether it's Jesus, Yahveh, Brahma, Allah, I don't know. Those things are more for the mind to sort out. The heart is where love is--no matter how true a church is or not.

 

[Walkntune]

Of course that's beautiful and very real. But, what about the Jew that believes in loving God with all his/her heart and loving his/her neighbor as him/herself? Aren't they, in theory, loving God first and then they follow his Commandments? And speaking of "in theory" Who can give their hearts 100% a 100% of the time? The Jew and the Christian does their best to surrender themselves to God or Jesus first, then does their best to do the good works. But, since, they both aren't perfect, they both sometimes act out of the self. When they do, they both have to come back humbly and repent and act in the spirit the next time.

I've "given" my heart to God in two different religions. Once as a Baha'i. I believed in God. I surrendered myself to God. I did what a good Baha'i is supposed to do, and it felt good. It felt real. It wasn't coming from me. It was from God. Then I got "saved" the Christian way and gave my heart to Jesus. I surrendered my will to him, to love him and serve him, to bear good fruit in his name and for his glory. The feeling was the same. The common denominator was that I believed and surrendered my will to a greater truth than myself. So what is the truth? It is in the heart. I'll bet an atheist that does a selfless deed feels the same thing. But, unlike the atheist, I feel that power and all-encompassing love that fills me when I do a selfless act is from some kind of spiritual reality. Whether it's Jesus, Yahveh, Brahma, Allah, I don't know. Those things are more for the mind to sort out. The heart is where love is--no matter how true a church is or not.

Yes of course.Lets go back to the story of Joseph.They came to Egypt in their own efforts to buy substance.Their money was put back into their money bags and although they did not know who put it there.They assumed they were getting provisions by their own efforts(being under law).The meaning in this is the Lord provided for them even though they did not recognise the one of their own who was providing for them.When they did recognise their brother then they completely came into the land of provision and did not even need to take provisions for they way.
God still blesses those under law even though they do not recognise the one who is given the provisions.How much mnore abundantly will the blessings be when they recognise the one who is the provider.

 

[CG Didymus]

It was given so they would try to obey it and fail.When a man sees the end of himself and his own efforts he waill call out to God for his salvation. If man could have obeyed it and become righteous through the law there would be no need for Jesus.They were punished because they were walking by the law of sin and death.Because they were under this law they did not enter the promiseland.They had to die off and Irael had to be reborn a new generation and crossed over the river Jordan by faith and face the giants of the land.If he did not fall by the law or be judged by them he would not come to the end of himself.

Here's some verses from Ezekiel 18:20-30 20 NASB:

"The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity ; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself. 21 "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live ; he shall not die. 22 "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. 23 "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live ? 24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live ? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed ; for them he will die. 25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Hear now, O house of Israel ! Is My way not right ? Is it not your ways that are not right ? 26 "When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. 27 "Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. 28 "Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live ; he shall not die. 29 "But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel ? Is it not your ways that are not right ? 30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct," declares the Lord GOD. "Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.

The first line here is similar to Ezekiel 18:4 that says, "The soul who sins will die." Great. We need Jesus. We all sin, but wait... This is the Hebrew Bible and God is forgiving a wicked man for observing His statutes and practicing righteousness? It sounds like the wicked man had to do something. He did them and the God "remembered not" his transgressions? That's pre-Jesus forgiveness? That's implying that this hypothetical wicked man could keep the Law and practice righteousness?

For myself, forget a true Church, I'd settle for a true Christian. And what would that true Christian look like? I think they should be able to "show" his/her faith by their works, and those works should produce the good fruit of love, joy, peace etc. But, what about that Jew? He wasn't even good at the beginning. He changed. He did something, follow the Law, and that was God talking in Ezekiel wasn't it? God seems to think observing the Law is important and is possible. So is there a "true" church? Or only several true-for-us churches?

 

[Walkntune]

Here's some verses from Ezekiel 18:20-30 20 NASB: The first line here is similar to Ezekiel 18:4 that says, "The soul who sins will die." Great. We need Jesus. We all sin, but wait... This is the Hebrew Bible and God is forgiving a wicked man for observing His statutes and practicing righteousness? It sounds like the wicked man had to do something. He did them and the God "remembered not" his transgressions? That's pre-Jesus forgiveness? That's implying that this hypothetical wicked man could keep the Law and practice righteousness?

For myself, forget a true Church, I'd settle for a true Christian. And what would that true Christian look like? I think they should be able to "show" his/her faith by their works, and those works should produce the good fruit of love, joy, peace etc. But, what about that Jew? He wasn't even good at the beginning. He changed. He did something, follow the Law, and that was God talking in Ezekiel wasn't it? God seems to think observing the Law is important and is possible. So is there a "true" church? Or only several true-for-us churches?

Really like what you said about works? Works of faith are and do come from the fruit of the spirit.God is Holy and never overlooks anything. He truly sees the law as perfect and Holy.This is Why he gave his son to fulfill the law and takes its wrath and judgement. We must remember Jesus was sinless and yet he was judged according to the law. Whos judgement do you think he took?It was ours because we cannot fullfill the law.He became the sacrifice that we bring to the alter for our sins.He has become a perfect sacrifice. Now after we have put our faith in Christ as our sacrifice we now go to the throne of grace instead of the alter when we sin.At the throne of grace we find God has already forgiven our sins at the alter with the sacrifice of Christ and we therefore forgive ourselves ( we must remember God never leaves nor forsakes us but we turn and run because of sin and hide under a fig leaf. We separate ourselves from Him until we forgive ourselves) now as we know God already forgave us.No need to go back to the alter, we just keep going to the throne of grace and we learn we can even come boldly .
Sounds like you are on track and a good path of Christianity.The grace of Jesus is so much more abundant then our sins. Jesus says whoever denies me before men I will deny before my father. Peter denied him three times yet when Jesus came back from the grave he searched Peter out as his disciple and asked him three times if he loved him? Jesus still forgave him and was teaching him the forgiveness of love. God has forgiven us but we must come to believe this so we can forgive ourselves. Your faith in his forgiveness will give you the ability to not judge yourself and walk in condemnation but to walk in a freedom that Christ died for you to have.In his eyes you are completely righteous by faith. We must come to see ourselves through his eyes and not our own.This is the only way to renew the mind of that of Christ.This is the only path that leads one to walk in love and sin less as we become more Christlike. The law of sin and death causes one to sin more, not less.Where there is no law there can be no transgression.In the garden of Eden there was only one law so only one temptation that Adam and Eve could be subject to. That was eating the forbidden fruit.The serpent could not tempt Eve to kill Adam because there was no law yet so no temptation.As we understand love we know no laws can come against it so the more one walks in love the less temptation and bondage they are in.To walk under the law brings bondage and temptation but to walk in love brings freedom from the law and temptation.

 

[CG Didymus]

Works of faith are and do come from the fruit of the spirit.God is Holy and never overlooks anything.

In the search for the "true" church, where is the body of Christ? MotherTeresa is always seen by the world as an exemplary Christian--How does God see her? She probably had horrible theology if you judge her by Protestant standards. I've heard many an Evangelical say that Gandhi is in hell, because he rejected Christ. Yesterday, I watched one of Ray Comfort's and Kirk Cameron's Way of the Master shows. They quoted a Barna Group study that showed that only 2% of Christians actually get out and do any evangelizing. So are they all lukewarm? Are they all going to be spit out of the Lord's mouth?

I know the road is said to be narrow, but the road away from a Christianity is way too broad. It is too easy to reject Jesus and the Bible because of the church. The Christian church that claimed to be the one "true" church burnt people at the stake, had their inquisitions, forced people to believe a certain way, used fear and guilt and didn't allow the Bible to be written in the common language of the people. Unfortunately, that is the reality of "true" Christianity. Have Protestants been any better? Each Protestant group believed they were the new true church. Yet, the church is still dividing and quibbling over who's right and who's wrong, and which one of them really is the "true" church. If by their fruits you shall know them, I'd have to say none of them.

You seem to be a good, decent person. A fine example of a good Bible-believing Christian. But, if you listed your definition of what a good Christian is and what a good Christian should believe, I know several other "good" Christians would jump all over you and tell you where and why you are wrong. The in-fighting is pushing people away. It looks like Christian don't even know what is really true.

The lack of showing love, like the good Samaritan parable, makes it seem like Christian don't really believe in doing what Jesus told them to--to love one another, by showing love for one another, the world would know that Jesus is real. That's the true church, that's the true body of Christ, but it's only hypothetical. I don't see it in the real world. Each group thinks it's better than the other. "Good" Christians gravitate to where they feel good and get fed the Word, but it still looks like four walls to me. That's not the church. That's a hiding place. What did Jesus say to the Pharisees? Something about whitewashed tombs? Where are the Christians that are a light to the world?

 

[Walkntune]

The lack of showing love, like the good Samaritan parable, makes it seem like Christian don't really believe in doing what Jesus told them to--to love one another, by showing love for one another, the world would know that Jesus is real.

You answer yourself and not much for me to add.The truth is the bible is written so we see ourselves from the viewpoint of God and not to see God from our viewpoint.God is love.He gave his life for others and was not self seeking. We should be the same.If we did we would truly find love, joy, and peace and all of the other gifts of the Spirit.
From mans point of view we see religious rules of obedience.Gods point of view is that of Love.We need to learn to see ourselves from the point of view of Christ and not of ourselves. How else will our minds be renewed to that of Christ.
Its easy for the child to hate the father for the father doing whats best out of love when the child only sees from his own point of view. Sometimes it takes a lifetime for that person to recognise the true love their parent was operating in to do what was best.
I am not in agreement with mans religious views and therefore walk out Christianity as a philosophy of my own understanding.
The moment man fell in the garden of Eden God started a plan of redemption back into his provision and even clothed him with an animals skin.All that was done in the garden of Eden might seem like punishment from our point of view but in Gods point of view it is love and grace and a plan of redemption.

 

[kjw47]

You answer yourself and not much for me to add.The truth is the bible is written so we see ourselves from the viewpoint of God and not to see God from our viewpoint.God is love.He gave his life for others and was not self seeking. We should be the same.If we did we would truly find love, joy, and peace and all of the other gifts of the Spirit.
From mans point of view we see religious rules of obedience.Gods point of view is that of Love.We need to learn to see ourselves from the point of view of Christ and not of ourselves. How else will our minds be renewed to that of Christ.
Its easy for the child to hate the father for the father doing whats best out of love when the child only sees from his own point of view. Sometimes it takes a lifetime for that person to recognise the true love their parent was operating in to do what was best.
I am not in agreement with mans religious views and therefore walk out Christianity as a philosophy of my own understanding.
The moment man fell in the garden of Eden God started a plan of redemption back into his provision and even clothed him with an animals skin.All that was done in the garden of Eden might seem like punishment from our point of view but in Gods point of view it is love and grace and a plan of redemption.

Yes the truth is in Gods written word, but at the same time translators centuries ago made many errors in translating, causing much confusion in this world) One needs to apply the real teachings of Jesus to find the one and only true religion which has teachers appointed by Jesus. And see if the religion that is teaching them the same--because-- 2 cor 11:12-15, Mark 3:23-25--1 cor 1:10 apply.

 

[gnostic]

Yes the truth is in Gods written word...

And that's the problem: What "written word" did God write?

There are some inconsistencies in between gospels. Different versions say different things. (The pouring of perfume on Jesus at Bethany, for instance; were his feet or head anointed or washed? Or was Mary Magdalene alone or with other women at Jesus' resurrection and meeting?)

Some of the verses in which the gospels (like Matthew 1:22-23 from Isaiah 7 for instance) had quoted from the OT, that have been taken out of context, because of the Christian interpretation.

Because God was involved in writing these gospels, then he is or was inconsistent with small or big details.

 

[kjw47]

And that's the problem: What "written word" did God write?

There are some inconsistencies in between gospels. Different versions say different things. (The pouring of perfume on Jesus at Bethany, for instance; were his feet or head anointed or washed? Or was Mary Magdalene alone or with other women at Jesus' resurrection and meeting?)

Some of the verses in which the gospels (like Matthew 1:22-23 from Isaiah 7 for instance) had quoted from the OT, that have been taken out of context, because of the Christian interpretation.

Because God was involved in writing these gospels, then he is or was inconsistent with small or big details.

Many things in Gods written word are hidden from mortal knowing, they get revealed by holy spirit through the teachers that have Jesus.

 

[savagewind]

The true church is a body of souls that hate what is bad and love what is good.

 

[Shermana]

The true church is a body of souls that hate what is bad and love what is good.

And that's the Nazarene Jews. That which is against Torah is the "bad".

 

[roger1440]

The true church is a body of souls that hate what is bad and love what is good.

So the true church must hate? If he/she doesn't hate would that peson be deserving of being excommunicated?

 

[savagewind]

So the true church must hate? If he/she doesn't hate would that peson be deserving of being excommunicated?

No. No one can prove feelings. But I have heard of people being "disfellowshiped" for masochism.

To hate what is bad means to stick to what is good. A person can not do both.

 

[roger1440]

No. No one can prove feelings. But I have heard of people being "disfellowshiped" for masochism.

To hate what is bad means to stick to what is good. A person can not do both.

Hate is a very strong word. Just the other day a woman was burned at the stake for being a witch in Kenya. LiveLeak.com - Witches burned alive in Kenya, Africa **GRAPHIC!**
All of us fall short of the glory of god. Not one of us are perfect. Let the first one without sin cast the first stone. Nearly all of us are misguided. Some more then others. Each of us must stay on course and not vear to the left or right, other wise we miss the mark.

 

[CG Didymus]

The true church is a body of souls that hate what is bad and love what is good.

Is there room for people from other religions? Like a Buddhist that is following right thought, right actions, etc.?

 

[savagewind]

Is there room for people from other religions? Like a Buddhist that is following right thought, right actions, etc.?

There is room in my true church for a Buddhist but I don't have a church. Actually I was just thinking how very solitary I am.

 

[CG Didymus]

There is room in my true church for a Buddhist but I don't have a church. Actually I was just thinking how very solitary I am.

That's what I miss about not belonging to a religious group. It didn't matter so much what they believed, but more that they pretended to care about me. I really do miss that.

 

[savagewind]

That's what I miss about not belonging to a religious group. It didn't matter so much what they believed, but more that they pretended to care about me. I really do miss that.

I don't think they were pretending. They are spiritual babes. A baby never thinks of anything out of sight. Out of sight, out of mind is the rule of most churches.

It is my opinion there does not exist a true church. I am also experiencing missing fellowship. It is not like I am not looking for fellow believers. I have even exchanged emails with "Christians" but they have left me behind.

 

[Shermana]

That's what I miss about not belonging to a religious group. It didn't matter so much what they believed, but more that they pretended to care about me. I really do miss that.

Yes, the pretending of people caring about you was definitely an endearing trait of the churches I've visited. It was so fake and forced, the entertainment value was worth the trip each time.