What church is the true church?

[Reverend Rick]

In the present United States most states will not allow gay marriage. This is today at this very moment as my heart beats in my chest. Sodomy is outlawed in same states TODAY. Granted, it is not a church that makes these decisions, but the church does have an influence. Law makers not only make laws they also echo societies view on what is right or wrong.

What does that have to do with the topic of this thread exactly?

 

[kjw47]

Exactly right! :yes:

The 12 tribes listed in revelation are not the twelve tribes listed in the ot. Showing it is not literal israel being spoken of, but spiritual Israel( meaning Gods chosen ones)

 

[e.r.m.]

I am confident that since all throughout the ot God used a single religion,unified--that the same goes for all time a single religion who follow this simple rule-1 cor 1:10) By applying the true teachings of Jesus to what one is being taught is the best way to find the religion he( Jesus) is with. but beware-2 cor 11:12-15.

Agreed. As long as no one decides to ignore the scriptures for the sake of unity. There must be unity under God, in Spirit and truth.

 

[e.r.m.]

Definitely some people are more "real" and "genuine" than others. The churches seem to be doing their best at what they think is the "true" way to worship God. When we try and find the one true Christian church, the problem gets down to which words, which verses, and which interpretation is best. But, who doesn't think their church is the one that's right? So that doesn't work. Because loving and kind people can be found in any religion or no religion.

I agree that loving and kind people can be found in any and no religion. That's not the final say, but it is definitely a part of it, John 13:34-25. The crux of the matter is NOT to "interpret" per say - "This is what it means to me.", that's what got us into trouble in the first place.
One must seek the "original intent" of the Biblical authors-"What it meant to Them". That's what true.

I think the "true church" is in the heart. But, since none of us are perfect, even that falls short in practice.

The NT Christians fell short of perfection also. That didn't keep them from being the true church. I don't think we need to be perfect to be the true church, but we do need to be Holy and faithful to God. There are churches where people are sleeping around with each other like crazy. These churches don't care about God's word at all, they're just going to church and the pastor is not holding the flock to be true disciples/folllowers of Jesus. Some churches don't even expect their members to study their Bibles for themselves, but just hang on the preacherd words. 1 Timothy 4:16.

Anyway, what is the Christian restoration movement? Sounds interesting. And the same with you Shermana, I'd like to hear more of what you believe.

I refer to the restoration movement begun with Alexander Campbell in the 1800's. He was excommunicated from his baptist congregation after advocating that the congregation return to the scriptures. He was seeing that people were officially announced saved when they shared in a public setting a divine experience that God had given them. Alexander did not see this in the scriptures and challenged it. He saw in the scriptures people believing in Jesus, repenting, and being baptized in Jesus's name for the forgiveness of their sins.
I do not follow Alexander Campbell or Stone Barton, another pioneer. These men were flawed men like any of us and Paul spoke against following man -1 Corinthians 1:10-13. I have studied the scriptures deeply for years as well as church history and I believe that Alexander Campbell got it right. It could just as easily been any one else. The Protestants made a good go of reforming the church during the 1500s, but they far from got it right. Of course Some (John Wycliff, William Tisdale, etc.) did much better than others (John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, etc.). I belong to the Churches of Christ, but there a re a growing number of churches outside of the Churches of Christ that believe as we do. My allegiance is to what the scriptures teach and I speak only from the standpoint of the scriptures. I don't throw out the "my church is better than your church" nonsense, but if people want to know where I am a part, it is there. If a church, any church, follows the scriptures in life and doctrine, they are the true church.

 

[CG Didymus]

ER.M said,

If a church, any church, follows the scriptures in life and doctrine, they are the true church.

Following the Scriptures is a problem. Which Scriptures? Shermana has a different opinion on that. Jews have a different opinion on that. Since at one point in time Christians do believe everything in Hebrew Scriptures was meant to be followed exactly. In the transition to follow the "new" teachings, the Hebrew Scriptures got "adjusted". That is why I'm interested in what Shermana has to say to that. What really happened? Why did so much of Judaism get superseded?

 

[Pegg]

I believe the 144,000 are 12,000 of each tribe of Jews that will convert to Christianity during the tribulation.

i've heard this idea too,

however, how then are we to understand the sections of the Greek scriptures which show that gentiles are among these who are to rule with Christ as kings and priests???

if some who have already been chosen are gentiles, then surely the numbers cannot be literal?? Otherwise the 144,000 would have to be a larger number....ie 12x12,000 jews plus the gentiles as mentioned in the scriptures.

 

[Shermana]

The 12 tribes listed in revelation are not the twelve tribes listed in the ot. Showing it is not literal israel being spoken of, but spiritual Israel( meaning Gods chosen ones)

So why was Dan omitted from Spiritual Israel?

 

[Pegg]

So why was Dan omitted from Spiritual Israel?

under the 12 tribes of the OT, only the tribe of Levi could serve as Priests, and only the tribe of Judah could serve as kings. Not only that, but there were many more then only 12,000 in each tribe.

but under spiritual isreal, even the non priestly and non kingly lines can serve as kings and priests.

that is the real clue to understanding that the tribes listed in Revelation are not to be taken literally which is why Dan is removed and Levi is added in (Levi is excluded from the OT tribes)

 

[Shermana]

under the 12 tribes of the OT, only the tribe of Levi could serve as Priests, and only the tribe of Judah could serve as kings. Not only that, but there were many more then only 12,000 in each tribe.

but under spiritual isreal, even the non priestly and non kingly lines can serve as kings and priests.

that is the real clue to understanding that the tribes listed in Revelation are not to be taken literally which is why Dan is removed and Levi is added in (Levi is excluded from the OT tribes)

You are mistaken, Levi is indeed always counted among the tribes, Ephraim and Manassah, the two half tribes, are usually counted as one tribe, and now they are counted as two different ones.

Where did you get the idea that Levi was ever omitted from the listings of the 12 tribes and that Manassah wasn't the one added in in this case?

 

[Pegg]

You are mistaken, Levi is indeed always counted among the tribes, Ephraim and Manassah, the two half tribes, are usually counted as one tribe, and now they are counted as two different ones.

Where did you get the idea that Levi was ever omitted from the listings of the 12 tribes and that Manassah wasn't the one added in in this case?

NUmbers 1:17 So Moses and Aaron took these men who had been designated by names....19 just as Jehovah had commanded Moses; and he proceeded to register them in the wilderness of Si′nai.
20 And the sons of Reu′ben, ...
22 Of the sons of Sim′e·on,...
24 Of the sons of Gad,...
26 Of the sons of Judah, ..
28 Of the sons of Is′sa·char, ..
30 Of the sons of Zeb′u·lun, ..
32 Of the sons of Joseph: ..
34 Of the sons of Ma·nas′seh, ..
36 Of the sons of Benjamin, ..
38 Of the sons of Dan, ..
40 Of the sons of Ash′er,..
42 Of the sons of Naph′ta·li,...
44 These are the ones registered, whom Moses registered, together with Aaron and the chieftains of Israel, twelve men. They represented one each the house of his fathers....
47 However, the Levites according to the tribe of their fathers did not get registered in among them. 48 Accordingly Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying: 49 “Only the tribe of Le′vi you must not register, and the sum of them you must not take in among the sons of Israel.

If you were to count the levites in among the OT list, you would have 13 tribes.

 

[Shermana]

Why stop there?

47The families of the tribe of Levi, however, were not counted along with the others. 48The LORD had said to Moses: 49“You must not count the tribe of Levi or include them in the census of the other Israelites. 49“You must not count the tribe of Levi or include them in the census of the other Israelites. 50Instead, appoint the Levites to be in charge of the tabernacle of the Testimony—over all its furnishings and everything belonging to it. They are to carry the tabernacle and all its furnishings; they are to take care of it and encamp around it

Levi is clearly listed as among the tribes, just not among the one to be the Census for the warriors and men who would be fit to brandish swords. Context is key. Levi is still called "A tribe".

Also note in Verse 32, "The sons of Joseph", why even title them as such?

32From the sons of Joseph:

From the descendants of Ephraim:

All the men twenty years old or more who were able to serve in the army were listed by name, according to the records of their clans and families. 33The number from the tribe of Ephraim was 40,500.
34From the descendants of Manasseh:

All the men twenty years old or more who were able to serve in the army were listed by name, according to the records of their clans and families. 35The number from the tribe of Manasseh was 32,200.

This is not a listing of the 12 tribes as an official list, this is a CENSUS. So yes, 13 tribes are apparently listed by your logic. The difference is that Levi is simply not counted among the men fit for war.

3You and Aaron are to number by their divisions all the men in Israel twenty years old or more who are able to serve in the army

Ephraim and Manassah are merely "half tribes".

And your logic still doesn't explain why Dan was removed to "make room for Levi", why not remove one of the Half tribes instead? Why did Joseph get to count as 2 tribes in the first place?

So as you can see, this is merely a census describing the men who would serve in the army and be called to arms and fight in battle against the enemy. The Levites were exempt from this duty. That's all it means.

 

[Pegg]

And your logic still doesn't explain why Dan was removed to "make room for Levi", why not remove one of the Half tribes instead? Why did Joseph get to count as 2 tribes in the first place?

there is no logic for why dan is removed and not any of the other tribes... it shows that John wasnt actually making a literal list of the tribes of Isreal...if he was, then he wouldnt remove any tribe, he'd keep them all in the list.

And hence why its not a literal list.

 

[Pegg]

Why stop there?


Levi is clearly listed as among the tribes, just not among the one to be the Census for the warriors and men who would be fit to brandish swords. Context is key. Levi is still called "A tribe".

Also note in Verse 32, "The sons of Joseph", why even title them as such?



This is not a listing of the 12 tribes as an official list, this is a CENSUS. So yes, 13 tribes are apparently listed by your logic. The difference is that Levi is simply not counted among the men fit for war.

Vs 16 says: These are the ones called of the assembly, the chieftains of the tribes of their fathers. They are the heads of the thousands of Israel.”

Levi is not mentioned among the heads of the 12 tribes. No matter how you wish to debate it, Levi is simply not counted among the 12. They are set aside for a holy purpose...that of overseeing all priestly duties.

So the actual 12 Tribes of Isreal do not include Levi.

 

[Shermana]

Vs 16 says: These are the ones called of the assembly, the chieftains of the tribes of their fathers. They are the heads of the thousands of Israel.”

Levi is not mentioned among the heads of the 12 tribes. No matter how you wish to debate it, Levi is simply not counted among the 12. They are set aside for a holy purpose...that of overseeing all priestly duties.

So the actual 12 Tribes of Isreal do not include Levi.

No matter how YOU wish to debate it, it's a list of the tribes that are called to be fit for war and to supply men to wield swords and hack up the enemies of Israel. It's a census! Levi is simply not to be called to arms. That's all there is to it. No matter how you slice it.

Would you like to take this to the Judaism DIR and see what they have to say on the matter of Levi not being listed among the 12 tribes?

And would you like to answer my questions about Dan and Joseph?

 

[Pegg]

No matter how YOU wish to debate it, it's a list of the tribes that are called to be fit for war and to supply men to wield swords and hack up the enemies of Israel. It's a census! Levi is simply not to be called to arms. That's all there is to it. No matter how you slice it.

Would you like to take this to the Judaism DIR and see what they have to say on the matter of Levi not being listed among the 12 tribes?

And would you like to answer my questions about Dan and Joseph?

You know the promised land is divided up between 12 tribes as follows:

Numbers 34: 16 And Jehovah spoke further to Moses, saying: 17 “These are the names of the men who will divide the land to YOU people for a possession,....18 And YOU will take one chieftain out of each tribe to divide the land for a possession. 19 And these are the names of the men: Of the tribe of Judah,
20 and of the tribe of the sons of Sim′e·on,
21 of the tribe of Benjamin,
22 and of the tribe of the sons of Dan
23 of the sons of Joseph, /Ma·nas′seh/E′phra·im
25 and of the tribe of the sons of Zeb′u·lun
26 and of the tribe of the sons of Is′sa·char
27 and of the tribe of the sons of Ash′er
28 and of the tribe of the sons of Naph′ta·li ...29 These are the ones whom Jehovah commanded to make the sons of Israel landholders in the land of Ca′naan.

This has nothing to do with those called for war, it is about the dividing up of the Promised land between the tribes. Can you see the tribe of Levi listed here?

 

[McBell]

Can you see the tribe of Levi listed here?

Nope, but i also note that there are only 9 listed....

1. tribe of Judah,
2. tribe of the sons of Sim′e·on,
   
3. tribe of Benjamin,
4. the tribe of the sons of Dan
5. sons of Joseph, /Ma·nas′seh/E′phra·imthe
   
6. tribe of the sons of Zeb′u·lunthe
   
7. tribe of the sons of Is′sa·charthe
   
8. tribe of the sons of Ash′erthe
9. tribe of the sons of Naph′ta·li .

 

[Shermana]

You know the promised land is divided up between 12 tribes as follows:

Numbers 34: 16 And Jehovah spoke further to Moses, saying: 17 “These are the names of the men who will divide the land to YOU people for a possession,....18 And YOU will take one chieftain out of each tribe to divide the land for a possession. 19 And these are the names of the men: Of the tribe of Judah,
20 and of the tribe of the sons of Sim′e·on,
21 of the tribe of Benjamin,
22 and of the tribe of the sons of Dan
23 of the sons of Joseph, /Ma·nas′seh/E′phra·im
25 and of the tribe of the sons of Zeb′u·lun
26 and of the tribe of the sons of Is′sa·char
27 and of the tribe of the sons of Ash′er
28 and of the tribe of the sons of Naph′ta·li ...29 These are the ones whom Jehovah commanded to make the sons of Israel landholders in the land of Ca′naan.

This has nothing to do with those called for war, it is about the dividing up of the Promised land between the tribes. Can you see the tribe of Levi listed here?

Levi doesn't get any land. Thus, he is not among the men who are listed to receive land.

Just like how Levi doesn't its sons into the battlefield. Thus, he is not among the ones to be listed among those who would contribute to the army.

Try reading the actual context of the passages instead of changing it to fit some idea of a "list of the 12 tribes in their entirety". Instead of reading what the point of the passages are, you are thinking it somehow represents a "list of the 12 tribes". That's not the case. You're completely ignoring the very point of why the lists are there to begin with.

I'm still waiting to hear why Dan was omitted and why Joseph counts as 2 tribes.

 

[Pegg]

Nope, but i also note that there are only 8 listed....

1. tribe of Judah,
2. tribe of the sons of Sim′e·on,
   
3. tribe of Benjamin,
4. the tribe of the sons of Dansons of Joseph, /Ma·nas′seh/E′phra·imthe
   
5. tribe of the sons of Zeb′u·lunthe
   
6. tribe of the sons of Is′sa·charthe
   
7. tribe of the sons of Ash′erthe
8. tribe of the sons of Naph′ta·li .

there are 10 listed in Numbers (Josephs 2 sons were given an inheritence) but Levi is not given an allotment.

Judah,
Sim′e·on
Benjamin,
Dan
Ma·nas′seh
E′phra·im
Zeb′u·lun
Is′sa·char
Ash′er
Naph′ta·li


add: Reuben and Gad recieved their allotment first before entering the Promised land at Numbers 34:13-15

 

[Shermana]

Nope, but i also note that there are only 9 listed....

1. tribe of Judah,
2. tribe of the sons of Sim′e·on,
   
3. tribe of Benjamin,
4. the tribe of the sons of Dan
5. sons of Joseph, /Ma·nas′seh/E′phra·imthe
   
6. tribe of the sons of Zeb′u·lunthe
   
7. tribe of the sons of Is′sa·charthe
   
8. tribe of the sons of Ash′erthe
9. tribe of the sons of Naph′ta·li .

10 if you count "the sons of Joseph" as 2 instead of 1/2 and 1/2.

So apparently Reuben isn't a member of the tribes according to Pegg's logic.

 

[Pegg]

10 if you count "the sons of Joseph" as 2 instead of 1/2 and 1/2.

So apparently Reuben isn't a member of the tribes according to Pegg's logic.

Reuben and Gad had already received their allotment of land before entering the promised land... they stayed on the opposite side of the promised land... that is why they are not in this list. So there are 12 tribes and 12 allotments of land... but not for Levites.


If you want to go back to see my post #388, you seemed to have missed the point i was trying to make.