What church is the true church?

[Shermana]

do you really believe that only jews were christians? You must be skipping over all the talk about the gentile beleivers...that or you dont want to believe that gentiles have any part with Christ and his kingdom ????

You mean do I really believe that James was speaking to the Jerusalem Church which was entirely filled with Jews? Yes. You must be skipping over what I said about how we don't know whether James was written before or after Acts 10. And regardless, that the context of Acts 15 and 21, by your own version of it, not counting the scholarly disputations of the Council of Jerusalem and 21:25, implies that the Jerusalem Church led by James was basically just Jews. And for the record, I do believe that there were Proselytes who became Christians. So there's absolutely no reason to assume that when James refers to the "12 tribes" that he's referring to some Spiritual metaphor. What exactly would that metaphor be? What would being a member of a particular tribe, like say the "half-tribe" of Manasseh even specify anyway? How would one "Spiritually" be a member of Gad and why not be a member of Judah instead? Why would one be a "Spiritual" Levite? What's the difference between them?

But that's not really relevant to the issue of who the 144,000 are.

I assume you are no longer pursuing the idea that the 144,000 are the ONLY ones who go to heaven and have accepted that this is simply not the case.

I DO want Gentiles to have a part in the Kingdom, but Paulinism has done a fine job steering them away. My goal is to get them to accept that they must become like Israelites just like in the old days when converts had to obey the Mosaic Law (and nowadays with Rabbinical Judaism) and to abandon traditional orthodox heresies, but I've realized that this is even harder than trying to make alcoholics stop drinking.y

However, the 144,000, who I believe are those mentioned also in Revelation 20:4 as those given authority to judge, are those selected from those who have spiritually evolved to be born as Israelites with Hebrew bloodlines. As I've shown, this is NOT the same thing as "The only ones who make it into heaven". It's more like "The only ones who are granted authority and are ranked among the highest strata". The ones who "break and teach to break the least of the commandments" for example would be among the least, and definitely won't be holding any authority.

Revelation says that the saints will be those who obey the commandments of God, and this is most likely referring to THE commandments. Revelation is a very Jewish book by any standard, this is standard scholarly opinion that it's very Jewish. A very Jewish author wouldn't be making claims about a "Spiritual 12 tribes of Israel'.

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How could this be when Proselytes became part of the tribe under the mosaic law. A proselyte was responsible to obey all of the Law, and he was to be treated by natural Jews as a brother....he was to be viewed as a native in the land

I must have missed the part where the Mosaic Law says that the Proselytes effectively become actual tribesmen themselves as opposed to just obeying the religion, which I kind of specified.

Lev 19:33 “‘And in case an alien resident resides with you as an alien in YOUR land, YOU must not mistreat him. 34 The alien resident who resides as an alien with YOU should become to YOU like a native of YOURS; and you must love him as yourself, for YOU became alien residents in the land of Egypt. I am Jehovah YOUR God.

So yeah, I must have missed the part where a convert to the Law became an actual member of the Tribes themselves. Which tribe did he become a part of? Judah? Nope, Judah was just the name of the region of the land.

Lev 24:22 “‘One judicial decision should hold good for YOU. The alien resident should prove to be the same as the native, because I am Jehovah YOUR God.’”

So yeah, where's the part where it says the Alien resident actually becomes a member of the tribes, and which tribe does he become a part of?

These proselytes became a part of Isreals army such as Uriah the hitite, the husband of Bathsheba. NOt only could they marry Isrealite women, but they could serve in the kings palace was was the case of the Egyption Ebedmelech. They were even put into service at the Temple such as the Gibeonites
So please dont try and promote an idea which is opposed to the Mosaic law. You cant' promote absolute obedience to the law, if you fail to accept that gentile proselytes become members of natural isreal. God has explicitly stated that they are to become natives and brothers of Isrealites. Ruth, a moabite, is King Davids Great Grandmother. What further evidence do you need?

Wrong, it doesn't say anything of the sort. It merely says they become converts. It doesn't say they become actual members of the "Sons of Reuben" or the "Sons of Gad" or "The Sons of Judah". And I'll be happy to bring up how Ruth totally clashes with the Torah and how it shouldn't be in the Canon and how even Jewish scholars believe it was shoehorned in to go against the Ezra-Nehemiah Theology, but that still would be irrelevant, since Ruth wouldn't have actually become a member of the Tribe by the standard logic, just a convert. Her CHILD may have become a tribesperson however, by the Paternal line.

 

[Pegg]

Wrong, it doesn't say anything of the sort. It merely says they become converts. It doesn't say they become actual members of the "Sons of Reuben" or the "Sons of Gad" or "The Sons of Judah". And I'll be happy to bring up how Ruth totally clashes with the Torah and how it shouldn't be in the Canon and how even Jewish scholars believe it was shoehorned in to go against the Ezra-Nehemiah Theology, but that still would be irrelevant, since Ruth wouldn't have actually become a member of the Tribe by the standard logic, just a convert. Her CHILD may have become a tribesperson however, by the Paternal line.

they become sons of Isreal.


Im not going to keep debating these points. Our view is based on what the scriptures (canonical writings) present as Christian teachings and ideas. You come from a different school of thought... a more Judaistic one which is fine for the views expressed in the writings you use, but it doesnt gel very well with the Greek (or hebrew) scriptures imo.

 

[Shermana]

they become sons of Isreal.

Says who? Says where?

Im not going to keep debating these points.

Gee why could that be?

Our view is based on what the scriptures (canonical writings) present as Christian teachings and ideas.

As you perceive them, and I'll just say my view is based on what the scriptures present as Christian teachings and ideas.

You come from a different school of thought... a more Judaistic one which is fine for the views expressed in the writings you use, but it doesnt gel very well with the Greek (or hebrew) scriptures imo

Well IMO it very well does. And IMO, I've refuted every one of your attempts to disprove my views and there are still many questions left hanging. Why would you even say its fine for the writings I use if you don't think it gets very well with the Hebrew?

So with that exchange of "nuh uhs", I suppose we can agree to disagree.

 

[Pegg]

As you perceive them, and I'll just say my view is based on what the scriptures present as Christian teachings and ideas.

as long as you let people know you dont use the Greek scriptures or the writings of Acts or Paul... thats important because christians view those writings as handed down by the apostles of Jesus.

the views you express do not come from the Christian Greek scriptures of the NT Canon.

Well IMO it very well does. And IMO, I've refuted every one of your attempts to disprove my views and there are still many questions left hanging. Why would you even say its fine for the writings I use if you don't think it gets very well with the Hebrew?

well you have me wrong then, im not out to dispove you wrong and i dont enjoy debating... i do however aim to present the Holy Scriptures and what they state. I was very surprised that you would refute the Mosiac law about aliens becoming members of the nation, so yes, i think we need to agree to disagree.

 

[Shermana]

as long as you let people know you dont use the Greek scriptures or the writings of Acts or Paul... thats important because christians view those writings as handed down by the apostles of Jesus.

I think I've been quite clear letting people know that I do not accept the Pauline Epistles and that I view Acts with suspicion. And even in this conversation, I used Paul's epistles to demonstrate that your interpretation of them may not be so accurate. I don't see why I'm required to follow the standard NT Canon in its entirety to be able to speak about the rest. Or the scholarly disputed issues like the Council of Jerusalem and how the account clashes with Galatians 2. I also think I'm quite clear in letting people know that I consider certain texts that the orthodox Fathers (later on) rejected to be authentic and inspired, like Shepherd of Hermas.

Also, you should say "Most Christians" since it's not a necessary tenet of being a Christian altogether to view those books as totally inspired without scholarly dispute. One of my aspirations is to help Christians realize the actual historicity of these controversial writings and not just blindly believe in the traditional view.

the views you express do not come from the Christian Greek scriptures of the NT Canon.

They definitely don't come from the Pauline aspect of the NT canon (Though there are several things I think Paul had right, like Satan being "the god of this age" and Christ being the 'Firtborn of Creation") , but they definitely fit with the Gospels, James, Jude, Revelation, 1 Peter, and John. So when you say "Scriptures", we have to include those, which all seem to clash with Paul's letters.

well you have me wrong then, im not out to dispove you wrong and i dont enjoy debating... i

If you don't enjoy debating, why are you here? Where did I imply you did, and why did you skip my question about the Hebrew?

do however aim to present the Holy Scriptures and what they state.

And I aspire to the do the same, and don't count Paul's epistles as "The holy scriptures" or parts that are heavily disputed as interpolated. What you call "The Holy Scriptures" is simply "The Traditional Roman orthodox Canon". The Ethiopian Bible is considered their "Holy Scriptures" as well.

I was very surprised that you would refute the Mosiac law about aliens becoming members of the nation, so yes, i think we need to agree to disagree.

Well it's easy to become surprised about strawmen, which is why you totally ignored and dodged my questions when I pointed out that it doesn't say what you think it says.

 

[kjw47]

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate;39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ " Matthew 23:37-39

I don’t see that Matthew 23:37-38 is saying that Israel is cut off as God's chosen people and in Romans 11 Paul clearly states that God has not cast away Israel or the promises He has made to Israel. Romans 11 and the entirety of the scriptures show that God will keep His covenant promises to the nation of Israel and Israel will never cease to be a nation before Him[FONT=&quot] (Jeremiah 31). A[/FONT]lthough for a time Jerusalem, the temple, the Jewish people, and the land (verse 37) are left alone or desolate (verse 38) because on a national level the religious leaders did not return to God or receive Christ for protection as chicks return to the hen (verse 38) This is a temporary situation which the scriptures refer to as the time of the Gentiles (Luke 21:24) and lasts only until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (Romans 11:25). After which such time Jesus will return to deliver and save Israel, He will be accepted, not rejected and all Israel will say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD (Matthew 23:39; Psalm 118:26; Zechariah 12) and all Israel will be saved (Romans 11:26). The fact that God has re-gathered Israel to the land as a nation again after over 1900 years of dispersion (Jeremiah 30:3) and is such a centerpiece in world events (Zechariah 12) shows that God is again beginning to focus upon Israel and the fulfillment of His plan with and promises to His chosen people. Passages in Revelation, such as Rev. 7:4 and prophetic passages elsewhere in Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Daniel. Matthew,and Luke also show this to be the case.


If the number, 144.000 is a literal number in Revelation 7:4, then to say the very next part of the sentence... the tribes of the children of Israel... is not literal, but spiritual or symbolic is inconsistent. This strikes me as improper biblical interpretation. The text makes a point to especially emphasis the literalness when the scriptures so specifically lists 12,000 from each tribe. Another point to consider is that every time the Bible uses the expression..."the children of Israel", it always means the literal descendants of Jacob. No place else in scripture does the expression, “the tribes of the children of Israel” ever used in reference to the church or anything other than literal Israel.


And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: Rev. 7:4

It states they are cut off until they accept Jesus as the messiah--they will never do that. They have had a little short of 2000 years and still refuse to accept Jesus as the messiah.
The 12 tribes listed in rev are not the 12 tribes listed in the ot. proving a difference in meaning.

 

[InChrist]

It states they are cut off until they accept Jesus as the messiah--they will never do that. They have had a little short of 2000 years and still refuse to accept Jesus as the messiah.
The 12 tribes listed in rev are not the 12 tribes listed in the ot. proving a difference in meaning.

Actually the scriptures say otherwise, the literal descendants of Israel will turn to Jesus as Messiah and will be saved as Paul clearly states and as the prophecies of Zechariah (and others) show. The lists of the tribes Israel even in the OT often show variation so there is no valid reason that the variation in Revelation 7:4 should be taken to mean anything other than descendants of Jacob or Jewish people, 144,000 virgin Jewish men to be precise in this passage (Revelation 14:3-4).

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion,And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them,When I take away their sins.” Romans 11:25

[FONT=&quot]In that day the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot] will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot] before them. [/FONT] It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:8-10



Who are the 144,000 in Revelation 7?


Who are the 144,000?

 

[Muffled]

There are nearly ten thousand flavors of Christianity today. When we add to the mix the churches that did not survive to the present date, the number of churches are even higher. What criteria should a person use to determine the true church? I define the “true church” as a church that teaches an accurate teaching of Jesus Christ. If you know of such a church, please explain in detail why that church is the true church.

I haven't found a church that I believe fits this description and I have been to many of them.

I would include any church that encourages people to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior and has members who have received Jesus as Lord and Savior.

 

[gzusfrk]

There are nearly ten thousand flavors of Christianity today. When we add to the mix the churches that did not survive to the present date, the number of churches are even higher. What criteria should a person use to determine the true church? I define the “true church” as a church that teaches an accurate teaching of Jesus Christ. If you know of such a church, please explain in detail why that church is the true church.

I am the church. The Word ,(that is the new testament) finds those that are His, His Word is alive and active, Heb 4:12. Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and follow Me. His voice being the Word of God.It is by His Word that you are saved 1 peter 1:23. Read and study the new testament and it will reveil to you what it says according to YOUR heart.

 

[kjw47]

Actually the scriptures say otherwise, the literal descendants of Israel will turn to Jesus as Messiah and will be saved as Paul clearly states and as the prophecies of Zechariah (and others) show. The lists of the tribes Israel even in the OT often show variation so there is no valid reason that the variation in Revelation 7:4 should be taken to mean anything other than descendants of Jacob or Jewish people, 144,000 virgin Jewish men to be precise in this passage (Revelation 14:3-4).

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion,And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them,When I take away their sins.” Romans 11:25

[FONT=&quot]In that day the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot] will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot] before them. [/FONT]It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:8-10



Who are the 144,000 in Revelation 7?


Who are the 144,000?

The 144,000 are the little flock= the bride of Christ= the annointed-- only these have the heavenly hope, bought from the earth rev 14:3) -- these will sit on thrones alongside of Jesus as kings and priests helping do the judging. rev 20:4

 

[Shermana]

The 144,000 are the little flock= the bride of Christ= the annointed-- only these have the heavenly hope, bought from the earth rev 14:3) -- these will sit on thrones alongside of Jesus as kings and priests helping do the judging. rev 20:4

Where does it imply that they are the ONLY ones who get into heaven, as opposed to being corrolated with the special ones in 20:4 who are given authority to judge? I guess the part about "Not being defiled with a woman" and "virgins" is somehow metaphorical too?

 

[kjw47]

Where does it imply that they are the ONLY ones who get into heaven, as opposed to being corrolated with the special ones in 20:4 who are given authority to judge? I guess the part about "Not being defiled with a woman" and "virgins" is somehow metaphorical too?

Jesus gave this promise to the great crowd( other sheep)-- Blessed( happy) are the meek for they will inherit the earth---also the psalmist wrote-- the righteous will possess the earth and reside forever upon it.

Jesus recieved a millenial reign( 1000 years) as Gods appointed king, and the bride of Christ= 144,000 bought by his sacrafice. And a name above every other name. But at the end of the millenial reign, Jesus must hand back the kingdom (kingship) to his God and Father and become a subject to him( as all created beings are) 1 cor 15:24-28

The part about not being defiled or a virgin is actually referring to not being apart of the govts or false religions of the earth.( in reality they are antichrist) A virgin in that sense.
Peter is one of the 144,000-- he was married so he was not a virgin in that sense that people think rev is speaking of.

 

[Shermana]

Jesus gave this promise to the great crowd( other sheep)-- Blessed( happy) are the meek for they will inherit the earth---also the psalmist wrote-- the righteous will possess the earth and reside forever upon it.

Jesus recieved a millenial reign( 1000 years) as Gods appointed king, and the bride of Christ= 144,000 bought by his sacrafice. And a name above every other name. But at the end of the millenial reign, Jesus must hand back the kingdom (kingship) to his God and Father and become a subject to him( as all created beings are) 1 cor 15:24-28

The part about not being defiled or a virgin is actually referring to not being apart of the govts or false religions of the earth.( in reality they are antichrist) A virgin in that sense.
Peter is one of the 144,000-- he was married so he was not a virgin in that sense that people think rev is speaking of.

Okay, but the text doesn't really support what you're saying at all, there's no reason to assume the Disciples were members of this 144,000 for one thing. I guess we can make up any interpretation we want rather than go by the plain reading.

 

[kjw47]

Okay, but the text doesn't really support what you're saying at all, there's no reason to assume the Disciples were members of this 144,000 for one thing. I guess we can make up any interpretation we want rather than go by the plain reading.

If any are deserved to be apart of the 144,000 the apostles surely are, the majority back in those days are apart of the 144,000 -- they all went to the death to stand up for God and his son. The text may not support certain things, but actually not 1 is named who are apart of the little flock.

 

[InChrist]

Jesus gave this promise to the great crowd( other sheep)-- Blessed( happy) are the meek for they will inherit the earth---also the psalmist wrote-- the righteous will possess the earth and reside forever upon it.

Except the scriptures say the great crowd is in heaven.

The part about not being defiled or a virgin is actually referring to not being apart of the govts or false religions of the earth.( in reality they are antichrist) A virgin in that sense.
Peter is one of the 144,000-- he was married so he was not a virgin in that sense that people think rev is speaking of.

[/quote]

The passage does not give any other meaning than virgins who have not had relations with women, therefore men, of the tribes of the children of Israel who are sealed during the tribulation. The text says nothing to indicate virgins metaphorically means being apart from government or false religion, but it does actually clarify the literal definition of the word. Peter is already in heaven with the Lord, so he will not be one of the 144,000 Jewish men sealed during the tribulation period.

 

[kjw47]

Except the scriptures say the great crowd is in heaven.

The passage does not give any other meaning than virgins who have not had relations with women, therefore men, of the tribes of the children of Israel who are sealed during the tribulation. The text says nothing to indicate virgins metaphorically means being apart from government or false religion, but it does actually clarify the literal definition of the word. Peter is already in heaven with the Lord, so he will not be one of the 144,000 Jewish men sealed during the tribulation period.[/quote]


I have never seen a passage in Gods written word where it says the great crowd is in heaven.

 

[Pegg]

I have never seen a passage in Gods written word where it says the great crowd is in heaven.

thats right, Revelation speaks in very different terms regarding the Great Crowd and the 144,000

the 144,000 are each said to be sitting on thrones in heaven ruling with Christ.... the Great Crowd are said to be worshiping God before the Lamb and before the throne. It doest say where they are located though.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

The Christian churches I like best, Ethiopian Coptic and Quaker meetings (not churches), both very different but very fun.

 

[InChrist]

I have never seen a passage in Gods written word where it says the great crowd is in heaven.

Here they are in heaven with the angels before the throne of God:

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, Revelation 7:9-11

And again here the scriptures speaks of the great crowd (multitude) in heaven:

After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! Revelation 19:1

 

[kjw47]

Here they are in heaven with the angels before the throne of God:

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, Revelation 7:9-11

And again here the scriptures speaks of the great crowd (multitude) in heaven:

After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! Revelation 19:1

In rev 7 it doesnt say the great crowd is in heaven, one is just assuming it is saying that--In reality at that point in time it wont matter where one is standing--earth,moon,or heaven, they will be before the throne, because Gods kingdom( govt) will be the only ruling power left in existence.
And again at rev 19-- there is a great multitude of angels allready in heaven, it doesnt say its the great crowd from the earth, again you are assuming.
Gods word isnt open to personal interpretations, that is a major problem on this earth and the reason why there are 1000,s of different religions claiming to be christian, but for 99% of them this is their reality-2 cor 11:12-15.