What church is the true church?

[Shermana]

Reuben and Gad had already received their allotment of land before entering the promised land... they stayed on the opposite side of the promised land... that is why they are not in this list. So there are 12 tribes and 12 allotments of land... but not for Levites.


If you want to go back to see my post #388, you seemed to have missed the point i was trying to make.

Okay, so there goes your idea that this is a definitive list of the 12 tribes.

The idea that just because the Levites don't get an allotment that they're not officially one of the 12 tribes makes no sense.

Now as for post 388, you said:

that is the real clue to understanding that the tribes listed in Revelation are not to be taken literally which is why Dan is removed and Levi is added in (Levi is excluded from the OT tribes)

That does not explain whatsoever of

a) Why Dan would be removed instead of any other tribe, like say one of the "half tribes" as they are called.
b) Why Joseph counts as 2 tribes

That's what I've been asking about.

 

[Pegg]

Okay, so there goes your idea that this is a definitive list of the 12 tribes.

The idea that just because the Levites don't get an allotment that they're not officially one of the 12 tribes makes no sense.

please go back to post 388

we are talking about why Revelations list of tribes are not a literal list. Revelation includes Levi as a tribe...which it clearly is not from the OT description. They did not receive an allotment of land and they did not get registered as a 'chieftain' of Isreal

The fact that John includes them in his list is evidence that the list does not literally mean the 12 tribes of Isreal. Hence its a spiritual isreal listed in Revelation.

 

[e.r.m.]

ER.M said,Following the Scriptures is a problem. Which Scriptures? Shermana has a different opinion on that. Jews have a different opinion on that. Since at one point in time Christians do believe everything in Hebrew Scriptures was meant to be followed exactly. In the transition to follow the "new" teachings, the Hebrew Scriptures got "adjusted". That is why I'm interested in what Shermana has to say to that. What really happened? Why did so much of Judaism get superseded?

1. Jeremiah 31:31-34. A new covenant was already on its way.

2. Even amongst the Jews who chose not to partake in the new covenant, Judaism still changed or aspects suspended. Amongst them, there are no more animal sacrifices. As far as I'm aware the Hebrew scriptures did not allow for the suspension of this.

 

[Pegg]

That does not explain whatsoever of

a) Why Dan would be removed instead of any other tribe, like say one of the "half tribes" as they are called.
b) Why Joseph counts as 2 tribes

That's what I've been asking about.

the answer again is simply that there is no reason for it.

John is not making a point about tribes and who should or shouldnt be included... he is presenting a spiritual list.

 

[Shermana]

the answer again is simply that there is no reason for it.

John is not making a point about tribes and who should or shouldnt be included... he is presenting a spiritual list.

Ah, there's no reason for it. Well there you have it. John must have been drawing names out of a hat and Dan got unlucky.

Now why would it have to be 12 tribes exactly? What's the numerological explanation there?

 

[Shermana]

1. Jeremiah 31:31-34. A new covenant was already on its way.

2. Even amongst the Jewd who chose not to partake in the new covenant, Judaism still changed or was suspended. Amongst them, there are no more animal sacrifices. As far as I'm aware the Hebrew scriptures did not allow for the suspension of this.

The New Covenant was only for "Israel and Judah", and the Law was to be written on their hearts. Same Law intended. The point of the New Covenant was more of a "Renewed Covenant".

Apparently when the commandments were made "For all generations" or "Perpetually" or "To the thousandth generation" what it really meant was "For 50 generations until the Messiah comes"? Dang that hyperbole! Why couldn't they just be more specific!

As for not having animal sacrifices, Zechariah 14 is clear that there will be sacrifices again in the end days, along with the gentiles being struck with drought and plagues if they refuse to go to Jerusalem to celebrate Succoth.

We simply can't have sacrifices when there's no organized temple and priesthood. Same thing happened with the Babylonian exiles. Saul was punished severely for making unauthorized sacrifices. We are to do what we are able to do.

 

[Pegg]

Ah, there's no reason for it. Well there you have it. John must have been drawing names out of a hat and Dan got unlucky.

Now why would it have to be 12 tribes exactly? What's the numerological explanation there?

the composition of the heavenly kingdom will be similar to the composition of the 12 tribes of Isreal...its organizational structure will be in a similar pattern.

but it wont contain only natural Jews. It will contain spiritual jews which is shown by the fact that John does not use the literal list of the 12 tribes.

 

[Shermana]

the composition of the heavenly kingdom will be similar to the composition of the 12 tribes of Isreal...its organizational structure will be in a similar pattern.

but it wont contain only natural Jews. It will contain spiritual jews which is shown by the fact that John does not use the literal list of the 12 tribes.

Except that you've been shown that your idea of the "Literal list of the 12 tribes" is totally taken out of its context of land division and potential military recruits.

And I'm still waiting for an answer on why the "Sons of Joseph" count as 2 full tribes instead of being "half tribes".

Joshua 21:25

And out of the halfe tribe of Manasseh, Tanach with her suburbs, and Gathrimmon with her suburbs, two cities.

Joshua 22:7

World English Bible
Now to the one half-tribe of Manasseh Moses had given inheritance in Bashan; but to the other half gave Joshua among their brothers beyond the Jordan westward. Moreover when Joshua sent them away to their tents, he blessed them,

So yeah, Manasseh and Ephraim are "half tribes" which make up the 1 tribe of "The sons of Joseph". If Joshua 22:7 was referring to two halfs of Manassah, why would it still be called the "half tribe" elsewhere? You're welcome.

 

[Pegg]

Except that you've been shown that your idea of the "Literal list of the 12 tribes" is totally taken out of its context of land division and potential military recruits.

And I'm still waiting for an answer on why the "Sons of Joseph" count as 2 full tribes instead of being "half tribes".

Joshua 21:25



Joshua 22:7



So yeah, Manasseh and Ephraim are "half tribes" which make up the 1 tribe of "The sons of Joseph". If Joshua 22:7 was referring to two halfs of Manassah, why would it still be called the "half tribe" elsewhere? You're welcome.

i think you are missing the point here.

Are the 144,000 of Revelation all fleshly Jews, are 12,000 taken from each of the 12 tribes of natural Isreal to make up that number?

That is the whole point of this discussion and unfortunately, in trying to show why Johns list is not literal, you want to debate the finer details of the OT list of the tribes.

If John was speaking about natural jews, then how is it possible that gentiles are included in that 144,000 number? Now i've shown two lines of evidence which suggest he cant be speaking of natural jews.

 

[Reverend Rick]

My understanding is the Levites are the Rabi's and are among the other 11 tribes equally.

 

[kjw47]

the composition of the heavenly kingdom will be similar to the composition of the 12 tribes of Isreal...its organizational structure will be in a similar pattern.

but it wont contain only natural Jews. It will contain spiritual jews which is shown by the fact that John does not use the literal list of the 12 tribes.

I agree with Pegg here--afterall at Matt 23: 37-38--clearly teaches the israelites were cut off( of being Gods chosen ones)
John didnt have a clue as to who would be Gods chosen ones in these last days--so he referred to them as Israel-- but meaning spiritual israel meaning Gods chosen ones.So John was teaching that Gods chosen ones would be in that 144,000 group. The little flock= the bride of Christ.

 

[McBell]

I am still wondering what the other two tribes are....

 

[InChrist]

I agree with Pegg here--afterall at Matt 23: 37-38--clearly teaches the israelites were cut off( of being Gods chosen ones)
John didnt have a clue as to who would be Gods chosen ones in these last days--so he referred to them as Israel-- but meaning spiritual israel meaning Gods chosen ones.So John was teaching that Gods chosen ones would be in that 144,000 group. The little flock= the bride of Christ.

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate;39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ " Matthew 23:37-39

I don’t see that Matthew 23:37-38 is saying that Israel is cut off as God's chosen people and in Romans 11 Paul clearly states that God has not cast away Israel or the promises He has made to Israel. Romans 11 and the entirety of the scriptures show that God will keep His covenant promises to the nation of Israel and Israel will never cease to be a nation before Him[FONT=&quot] (Jeremiah 31). A[/FONT]lthough for a time Jerusalem, the temple, the Jewish people, and the land (verse 37) are left alone or desolate (verse 38) because on a national level the religious leaders did not return to God or receive Christ for protection as chicks return to the hen (verse 38) This is a temporary situation which the scriptures refer to as the time of the Gentiles (Luke 21:24) and lasts only until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (Romans 11:25). After which such time Jesus will return to deliver and save Israel, He will be accepted, not rejected and all Israel will say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD (Matthew 23:39; Psalm 118:26; Zechariah 12) and all Israel will be saved (Romans 11:26). The fact that God has re-gathered Israel to the land as a nation again after over 1900 years of dispersion (Jeremiah 30:3) and is such a centerpiece in world events (Zechariah 12) shows that God is again beginning to focus upon Israel and the fulfillment of His plan with and promises to His chosen people. Passages in Revelation, such as Rev. 7:4 and prophetic passages elsewhere in Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Daniel. Matthew,and Luke also show this to be the case.


If the number, 144.000 is a literal number in Revelation 7:4, then to say the very next part of the sentence... the tribes of the children of Israel... is not literal, but spiritual or symbolic is inconsistent. This strikes me as improper biblical interpretation. The text makes a point to especially emphasis the literalness when the scriptures so specifically lists 12,000 from each tribe. Another point to consider is that every time the Bible uses the expression..."the children of Israel", it always means the literal descendants of Jacob. No place else in scripture does the expression, “the tribes of the children of Israel” ever used in reference to the church or anything other than literal Israel.


And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: Rev. 7:4

 

[Shermana]

i think you are missing the point here.

Are the 144,000 of Revelation all fleshly Jews, are 12,000 taken from each of the 12 tribes of natural Isreal to make up that number?

That is the whole point of this discussion and unfortunately, in trying to show why Johns list is not literal, you want to debate the finer details of the OT list of the tribes.

If John was speaking about natural jews, then how is it possible that gentiles are included in that 144,000 number? Now i've shown two lines of evidence which suggest he cant be speaking of natural jews.

Ahem...YOU were saying that Levi replaces Dan, using the lists of land allotment and military service as de facto lists of the Tribes of Israel, and then said "there's no reason" why Dan is replaced in the first place, and you have skipped the question of why the "Half tribe" of Manasseh counts as a full tribe, and why Joseph counts as two full tribes instead of two halves more than once. I merely showed you the correct context of this passage you incorrectly interpreted as a defacto list of the "12 tribes". It's about who is fit to fight and who gets what land. The only reason it discludes Levi is because he doesn't fight and doesn't get land. It does not mean Levi is not counted among the 12 tribes whatsoever. Nor does it explain why Manasseh is distinctly referred to as a "Half tribe" and why the "Sons of Joseph" are listed as "The sons of Joseph" like all the other tribes are listed as "The sons of X".

Not only are you ignoring my questions, you're denying the very point of your own initial statement by brushing it off as "The finer details" when I pointed out that those lists are not defacto lists of the tribes themselves counting as "The 12" but merely for lists of land allotment and military service.

You have NOT shown two lines of evidence that suggest anything, feel free to requote what you claim is this evidence you speak of, especially since you brushed off what I said as "The finer details". Your whole attempt to show that John's list was "not literal" was BASED on this OT list, and when I point out that this list you claim discludes Levi from "The 12 tribes" is not what you think it is, you now just call it "debating the finer details".

Yeah, I'm debating the finer details of your fallacious use of that list! When that list is read in its proper context and perspective, it shoots down your entire point.

So yes, there's absolutely NO reason to assume that the 144,000 are NOT "Fleshly Jews" and that it's metaphorical.

 

[Pegg]

shermana, the christians clearly said that the gentiles are among the 144,000 who go to heaven. Even Jesus gave a story to illustrate how it happens that Gentiles are among them. So it is impossible for the 144,000 to be made up of only natural jews.

 

[Shermana]

shermana, the christians clearly said that the gentiles are among the 144,000 who go to heaven. Even Jesus gave a story to illustrate how it happens that Gentiles are among them. So it is impossible for the 144,000 to be made up of only natural jews.

You haven't established that the 144,000 are the ONLY ones to go to Heaven. All it says is that they will be sealed from the destruction and terrors of the tribulations. They are likely just a holier "class" of beings with greater authority and rank. They are certainly not among "the least". Probably among those in Rev 20:4 who will have "The authority to judge".

Also, what do you mean by the "Christians clearly said"?

 

[Pegg]

You haven't established that the 144,000 are the ONLY ones to go to Heaven. All it says is that they will be sealed from the destruction and terrors of the tribulations. They are likely just a holier "class" of beings with greater authority and rank. They are certainly not among "the least". Probably among those in Rev 20:4 who will have "The authority to judge".

Also, what do you mean by the "Christians clearly said"?

James addresses the christian congregation as the 12 tribes... when he says 'to the twelve tribes' he isnt speaking to fellow Jews but to fellow Christians:
James 1:1 James, a slave of God and of [the] Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes that are scattered about: Greetings!...
2:5 Listen, my beloved brothers. God chose the ones who are poor respecting the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he promised to those who love him,

The book of Acts names "jews' as those from all different nations...
Acts 2:5 As it was, there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, reverent men, from every nation of those under heaven. ...7 Indeed, they were astonished and began to wonder and say: “See here, all these who are speaking are Gal·i·le′ans, are they not? 8 And yet how is it we are hearing, each one of us, his own language in which we were born? 9 Par′thi·ans and Medes and E′lam·ites, and the inhabitants of Mes·o·po·ta′mi·a, and Ju·de′a and Cap·pa·do′ci·a, Pon′tus and the [district of] Asia, 10 and Phryg′i·a and Pam·phyl′i·a, Egypt and the parts of Lib′y·a, which is toward Cy·re′ne, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cre′tans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues about the magnificent things of God.”
There was not differentiation in Peters eyes of a proselyte from another nation and a Jew...they were all jews in the christian view which shows that gentiles were no longer viewed as separated from natural jews...they were one and same.

And Paul also promoted this Christian view that Abrahams seed are people from any nation who is joined to Christ:
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise


The chrsitian view makes it impossible to believe that the 144,000 will all be natural jews. Impossible. And if this is not your view, then you havnt really understood what the Apostles were teaching in this regard.

 

[Shermana]

James addresses the christian congregation as the 12 tribes... when he says 'to the twelve tribes' he isnt speaking to fellow Jews but to fellow Christians:
James 1:1 James, a slave of God and of [the] Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes that are scattered about: Greetings!...
2:5 Listen, my beloved brothers. God chose the ones who are poor respecting the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he promised to those who love him,

It must be fun putting whatever context and perspective we want into that passage, interesting because James was leader of the Jerusalem Church which was most likely entirely Jewish. So I'd say you're completely wrong there. We also don't know when the Epistle of James was written. This could have been well before Acts 10 which mentions the first Gentile converts. Besides, that has absolutely nothing to do with what I said that your idea that ONLY the 144,000 make it into heaven is not what it's saying, but is referring to being sealed from the tribulation. And with that said, James is referring to those who are poor financially among the Jews. It's clearly referring to the 12 actual tribes. Not some spiritual metaphor which has yet to be explained what it specifically entails.

The book of Acts names "jews' as those from all different nations...
Acts 2:5 As it was, there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, reverent men, from every nation of those under heaven. ...7 Indeed, they were astonished and began to wonder and say: “See here, all these who are speaking are Gal·i·le′ans, are they not? 8 And yet how is it we are hearing, each one of us, his own language in which we were born? 9 Par′thi·ans and Medes and E′lam·ites, and the inhabitants of Mes·o·po·ta′mi·a, and Ju·de′a and Cap·pa·do′ci·a, Pon′tus and the [district of] Asia, 10 and Phryg′i·a and Pam·phyl′i·a, Egypt and the parts of Lib′y·a, which is toward Cy·re′ne, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cre′tans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues about the magnificent things of God.”
There was not differentiation in Peters eyes of a proselyte from another nation and a Jew...they were all jews in the christian view which shows that gentiles were no longer viewed as separated from natural jews...they were one and same.

Just because Proselytes were there does not mean anything about what you're saying.

Post edited: The verse appears in 2:10 but some translations include it in 2:11. I got too carried away with that one before checking that.

Either way, in no way whatsoever does it imply that these Proselytes were now a part of the Tribe itself, but were merely converts to the religion.

And Paul also promoted this Christian view that Abrahams seed are people from any nation who is joined to Christ:
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise

I like the part about "neither male nor female", how does that contrast with the idea that women aren't to speak in church and that the man is the head of the woman? Hmm, maybe in a similar way that the Jews who are obligated to obey all of Moses compared to gentiles? And besides, that opens yet another can of worms about Paul. Let's contrast what he said here:

\"What advantage does the Jew have? Or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way!

The chrsitian view makes it impossible to believe that the 144,000 will all be natural jews. Impossible. And if this is not your view, then you havnt really understood what the Apostles were teaching in this regard.

Ummm no, I totally defeated your logic that ONLY the 144,000 make it into heaven and that undermines any point you're trying to make. Telling me that I haven't really understood it while every point you've made has been easily shot down is about all you're left with. The only thing the 144,000 are mentioned as is those who are sealed from the destruction of the Tribulation and possibly those granted with authority to judge. Rather than contend that point, you simply repeated your assertion.

 

[Shermana]

Note Edit:

It appears the verse is in Acts 2:10, I got too excited. Editing post.

Regardless, I don't see how visiting Proselytes to Jerusalem to celebrate the festival in any way backs up what you're trying to say. That doesn't mean that they are members of the actual Tribes. It simply means there members of "Judaism". Not "Judah".

And we don't know at what point James wrote that letter, it could have been well before Acts 10. Even if it wasn't, it in no way implies the Jerusalem Church was so full of gentile converts to Judaism that he meant "Spiritual Israel".

And your answer of why Dan is excluded is "There is no answer", which doesn't help.

 

[Pegg]

It must be fun putting whatever context and perspective we want into that passage, interesting because James was leader of the Jerusalem Church which was most likely entirely Jewish. So I'd say you're completely wrong there. We also don't know when the Epistle of James was written. This could have been well before Acts 10 which mentions the first Gentile converts. Besides, that has absolutely nothing to do with what I said that your idea that ONLY the 144,000 make it into heaven is not what it's saying, but is referring to being sealed from the tribulation. And with that said, James is referring to those who are poor financially among the Jews. It's clearly referring to the 12 actual tribes. Not some spiritual metaphor which has yet to be explained what it specifically entails.

do you really believe that only jews were christians? You must be skipping over all the talk about the gentile beleivers...that or you dont want to believe that gentiles have any part with Christ and his kingdom ????

Just because Proselytes were there does not mean anything about what you're saying.

Post edited: The verse appears in 2:10 but some translations include it in 2:11. I got too carried away with that one before checking that.

Either way, in no way whatsoever does it imply that these Proselytes were now a part of the Tribe itself, but were merely converts to the religion.

How could this be when Proselytes became part of the tribe under the mosaic law. A proselyte was responsible to obey all of the Law, and he was to be treated by natural Jews as a brother....he was to be viewed as a native in the land
Lev 19:33 “‘And in case an alien resident resides with you as an alien in YOUR land, YOU must not mistreat him. 34 The alien resident who resides as an alien with YOU should become to YOU like a native of YOURS; and you must love him as yourself, for YOU became alien residents in the land of Egypt. I am Jehovah YOUR God.

Lev 24:22 “‘One judicial decision should hold good for YOU. The alien resident should prove to be the same as the native, because I am Jehovah YOUR God.’”

These proselytes became a part of Isreals army such as Uriah the hitite, the husband of Bathsheba. NOt only could they marry Isrealite women, but they could serve in the kings palace was was the case of the Egyption Ebedmelech. They were even put into service at the Temple such as the Gibeonites
So please dont try and promote an idea which is opposed to the Mosaic law. You cant' promote absolute obedience to the law, if you fail to accept that gentile proselytes become members of natural isreal. God has explicitly stated that they are to become natives and brothers of Isrealites. Ruth, a moabite, is King Davids Great Grandmother. What further evidence do you need?