What contributes more - science or religion???

[waitasec]

But morality doesn't always have to be religious.

Some would have the child anyways, regardless of belief.

It is man's drive for self preservation, to keep the blood alive.

And as for choice, well it was their choice to get a blood test.

I don't really see how this relates to religion being regressive though.

i agree morality doesn't have to be religious.
would it be fair to say this could be comparable to how condoms/birth control are viewed in the catholic faith?
as far as i can tell, the more choices we have, from the religious point of view, the less power we give god.
that is how i tie regression with religion.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

did mother theresa perpetuate misery by saying the use of condoms was a form of abortion?

I do not agree with the view of condoms in the RCC. It leads to a great amount of suffering.

 

[Breathe]

i am very happy that you shared this story. and i am so very glad you have 2 healthy children. i would have done the same not to mention i would have been scared sh**less. the courage both you and your wife have is commendable, indeed.

Thanks. It helps we're both stubborn as mules, and don't take people's words for it.

could you imagine if you lived in a society that would have you abort?

Yeah, that would be awful. Same though as one where everyone had to have the babies they had, especially when there are factors that many fundamentalists miss out, like rape.

Just for the record: I'm not anti-abortion, I'm pro-choice. I'd say "I just don't like abortions when they are not necessary", but I know most people don't so it's a worthless statement to add. I can't say all people though since I know someone through someone else who claims to have had twelve abortions.

I wasn't trying to give the impression that we are against abortions or anything like that, just in case you got that impression.


I hope that this technology moves in so something can be done about these serious illnesses before they happen, my point was I'm just a bit sceptical about how effective they will be, especially since we had something that is common (I think it seems to border on compulsory here), they could be so certain, and it was so wrong.

I, naturally, have some slight concerns about how far the avoidance of illnesses will go. What is, for example, something that can be defined as a major disability? Is blindness? Diabetes? Down's Syndrome? Autism? ADHD? Deafness? To some people yes, to others no. It's not like I think we're going to end up moving into a case where such screenings are compulsory and we end up with eugenics being mainstream, but I can sort of understand why some people think that, even though it's flawed thinking, y'know?

 

[waitasec]

You did not provide context for the quote so I do not know.

-The source I provided showed that Gandhi was 50 years ahead of his time on race rights and started the black consciousness movement in South Africa. This source was written by no less then Nelson Mandela
Please give me the reasons that you believe he was wrong. Why do you believe he did not start the black consciousness movement in Africa. Please back you comments up with Historical Facts.

-Gandhi Personally wrote a news paper. Many of the racist comments he has been accused of making have been shown to be taken out of context. Since Gandhi wrote news papers and books both in South Africa and India. Due to the fact he spent his whole life working for the rights of the poor both black and Indians. The huge amounts of literature he wrote would take me years to read. And put those comments into context. That is how the religious fundamentalist hide their lies.

-These anti Gandhi comments have been spread by the forces of religious intolerance. Thats the funny thing about this argument. The secular folks in India are not pushing these false ideas about Gandhi. It is only the Hindu Fundamentalists who what to ethnically cleanse India of all Muslims. They are the ones spending so much time and money spreading these lies. You in fact are siding with the very people you hate.

-I have in the past, read an article by Demond Tutu that also showed that these comments are false.

-There are two sides to this Argument the side of Tutu, Mandela, and King. and the side of the folks like the VHP (Violent religious group) I find it ironic the side you are on.

-All the quotes provided by those who think he is a racist, are from the time when he was a young man. So even if they are true ( I do not see any reason to believe they are ) Gandhi would have changed his mind. Just like he changed his mind about the Caste system, British Colonialism, War and the place of Women.

Do you believe Gandhi was a racist at the end of his life?


The really great thing about Gandhi is the change that came over him due to his desire to find the truth.

i have no qualms with you...this was directed towards know it all because he basically left out the atheists contribution in the civil rights movement

it doesn't matter to me one way or the other if gandhi was a racist. all i'm worried about is me and how i treat others. if my bringing up gandhi insulted you i am deeply sorry for that.
but i must ask you this, why does it matter to you if he was or wasn't? isn't it the goal of becoming the best we can be what matters at the end of the day?
:candle:

 

[Orias]

i agree morality doesn't have to be religious.
would it be fair to say this could be comparable to how condoms/birth control are viewed in the catholic faith?
as far as i can tell, the more choices we have, from the religious point of view, the less power we give god.
that is how i tie regression with religion.

You bring up choice.

Which means you chose to see the regessive side of religion, and not the conducive side.

 

[Orias]

Science seems to subject itself to the mercy of religion, simply because science was created by means to discover "fact" or "truth" other than creative and imaginative means, which also seems to contradict itself.

Religion provokes spiritual thought, which provokes intuitive desire, which provokes the quest for knowledge...science.

Religion is a deceitful science.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

but i must ask you this, why does it matter to you if he was or wasn't? isn't it the goal of becoming the best we can be what matters at the end of the day?
:candle:

Sorry you are right :sorry1:

This has nothing to do with you. It is about the way Hindu Fundamentalists spread lies and violence against Muslims and Christian. Their attack on Gandhi is a part of this problem.

 

[waitasec]

Thanks. It helps we're both stubborn as mules, and don't take people's words for it.


Yeah, that would be awful. Same though as one where everyone had to have the babies they had, especially when there are factors that many fundamentalists miss out, like rape.

Just for the record: I'm not anti-abortion, I'm pro-choice. I'd say "I just don't like abortions when they are not necessary", but I know most people don't so it's a worthless statement to add. I can't say all people though since I know someone through someone else who claims to have had twelve abortions.

I wasn't trying to give the impression that we are against abortions or anything like that, just in case you got that impression.

pro choice :yes:

I hope that this technology moves in so something can be done about these serious illnesses before they happen, my point was I'm just a bit sceptical about how effective they will be, especially since we had something that is common (I think it seems to border on compulsory here), they could be so certain, and it was so wrong.

a common human trait...unfortunately

I, naturally, have some slight concerns about how far the avoidance of illnesses will go. What is, for example, something that can be defined as a major disability? Is blindness? Diabetes? Down's Syndrome? Autism? ADHD? Deafness? To some people yes, to others no. It's not like I think we're going to end up moving into a case where such screenings are compulsory and we end up with eugenics being mainstream, but I can sort of understand why some people think that, even though it's flawed thinking, y'know?

with reason.

well these tests where for life threatening diseases where the child would have little to no chances of survival and would also be experiencing an awful amount of pain.

but again, i just want to reiterate that these blood tests are done before pregnancy.

 

[Breathe]

True waitasec, I agree with you.

 

[waitasec]

Sorry you are right :sorry1:

This has nothing to do with you. It is about the way Hindu Fundamentalists spread lies and violence against Muslims and Christian. Their attack on Gandhi is a part of this problem.

in short, can you explain why hindu fundamentalists are doing this, if you don't mind?

 

[Jacksnyte]

in short, can you explain why hindu fundamentalists are doing this, if you don't mind?

The closest thing to a Hindu fundamentalist I have ever met would be a member of the ISKON movement, and I doubt any of them would ever engage in such activities!

 

[waitasec]

You bring up choice.

Which means you chose to see the regessive side of religion, and not the conducive side.

actually i see it as the conducive and the regressive side of humanity

religion is just a word that has yet to give it self a meaning because of it's dichotomy

 

[waitasec]

Science seems to subject itself to the mercy of religion, simply because science was created by means to discover "fact" or "truth" other than creative and imaginative means, which also seems to contradict itself.

Religion provokes spiritual thought, which provokes intuitive desire, which provokes the quest for knowledge...science.

Religion is a deceitful science.

i think this stems from our innate sense of curiosity
the dangerous part is to assume we know anything...and that is why i think religion is not so good...

and to be fair, science can be arrogant with the knowledge it has discovered....WMD's for example, but then again it's up to us...isn't it?

 

[The Wizard]

ok but this US culture we are living in is based on what?
i see that church can be used for sense of community, but when it's tied in with the ideal of a god who is concerned with our daily activities and he's on "our side", things get a bit skewed as we have witnessed.

I assume a culture is based on many things aside from religion. Yes, religion has played a major role in communities and the creation of the nation as in history and leading to present- leading to the life we live. I'm am not proposing everything about a religion is good. But, some people are better off with a religion and believing a God is watching over them. I mean, it does has it's effects depending on the circumstance. If it was not needed it wouldn't exist.

as far as i can tell, we are still trying to over come the social stigma of same sex marriages, birth control for teens and equal pay for women. it wasn't until recently, relatively speaking, women could vote or had the option to demand a divorce from an abusive husband
sex is taboo while extreme violence is tolerated. and what i really feel where the church has contributed the most is that substance is overlooked because what really matters is presentation...

Ya, but many religious people these days have accepted those things. Religion and science upgrades in time and change of views or change in a culture. They are both just dancing around with each other and evolving and spitting out the good and the bad- depending on the people involved and the circumstances. So, once again religion is sort of an empty blame without including the people involved. I mean, I spent years believing there was no water in the cosmos cause science told me so. And what about science making that atomic bomb and designing biological weapons and design viruses? It's going to come back and bite sooner or later. This stuff is used just as much as a religious excuse to exterminate a country. A religion does not yield the power to destroy an entire planet. Think about it.

how many mega churches do we have in this country? it's absolutely mind boggling how people justify million dollar easter and christmas pageants every year. is that really following the teachings of christ?

I doubt it. Perhaps a little bit and a little not.

think of how many needy people could benefit from the amount of money spent for the sake of "christian entertainment" the church forgot what it's most important and humanistic call was
matt. 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

Well, IDK, I would have to make some sort of risk/benefit analysis on that scenerio. I have no idea. I'm not even familiar with "christian entertainment." That is once again people piggy backing off of a religion like polatics. I'm sure it does some harm and good. When the affects/effects can be fully measured then I would think about it.

if religion spent it's time and effort doing this instead of worrying about gaining control over peoples lives, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now, would we?

Ya, but you're talking about religious institutions with various people pulling the strings and having an agenda. I don't think that can be blamed on the religion itself- perhaps in part. There is religion and then there is the way it is used by people. It has been used to bring value and disvalue. Even a car crashes and kills people and it is all about the circumstances involved and the people driving it- we don't point at the car to blame and crucify- it is nuetral by nature.

 

[jarofthoughts]

-All the quotes provided by those who think he is a racist, are from the time when he was a young man. So even if they are true ( I do not see any reason to believe they are ) Gandhi would have changed his mind. Just like he changed his mind about the Caste system, British Colonialism, War and the place of Women.

Do you believe Gandhi was a racist at the end of his life?


The really great thing about Gandhi is the change that came over him due to his desire to find the truth.

That sure is nice, and I'm glad he did, if that is what really happened, and I have no particular reason to distrust this. But that still doesn't change the fact that he used to be a racist. Notice: I provided both the context and the references when I posted my quotes.

Again, no-one is saying he didn't do good, just that he wasn't the saint that many people make him out to be.

The lesson is that nobody is fit for uncritical admiration.
Not Gandhi.
Not Mother Teresa.
Not nobody.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

in short, can you explain why hindu fundamentalists are doing this, if you don't mind?

Because they hate Muslims and Christian missionaries. They want all of them out of India. It was a big shock to me when I ran across them in India. They have their groups much like the KKK. Anytime you have religion paired nationalism it is a losing proposition. They hate Gandhi because he stood up for the Muslims.

The VHP (one of these groups)has become a group much like the white christian league of the Southern USA.
It is calling for a Declaration of India as a Hindu Nation this includes all those who can trace their religious beliefs back to India like the Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains. But, not Muslims, Christians or Communists. Believe it or not they have very little problem with Atheism because Hindu culture traditionally had groups that were Atheist. In fact Atheism can be traced back to 600 bc in India.

This type of Hindu Nationalist have killed Christians. Just like Christian Missionarries have been caught suppling Terrorists in North East India. They have killed 1000's of Hindu's since 1980.

You must read this about the Christian Terrorism.
BBC News | SOUTH ASIA | 'Church backing Tripura rebels'

I think now you see why Gandhi is so important to me with all the religious nuts running around.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

The lesson is that nobody is fit for uncritical admiration.
Not Gandhi.
Not Mother Teresa.
Not nobody.

I agree.

 

[The Wizard]

"...whatever makes up that person did."

This is the main point I am getting at, but that you seem to be missing.
Of course everything a person is and has experienced will make up that person, whether he is religious or not, whether he wears pink t-shirts or not, whether he likes steak or not, and so on and so forth.

But as for the carpenter, why on Earth would I credit his religion, provided he has one, any more than I would credit his taste in t-shirts for the work he did on my porch?

Do you see my point now? :sarcastic

Listen, everbody chooses what to credit or value in people and events. But, most do this on a very shallow surface level. People do not include everything involved for bringing the very value (e.g. porch) into their life (i.e. cause and effect processes).

Here, I will explain myself with a real example. Years ago I landed a peachy caretaking job, which paid all expenses and gave me a beach front and the chance to write my books. The guy I caretaked for was Jewish. His lifestyle and choices, including his religion and beliefs, lead to and contributed to the cozy place and lifestyle that I endured.

Now, I am not Jewish. I do not have Jewish beliefs. But, that does not stop me from crediting the Jewish religion- which contributed to my dream life in one degree to the next. You see, I don't have to believe in something in order to appreciate, credit or value the effects that some belief has caused in my life. Can you understand where I'm coming from on this scenerio? It is not that difficult to understand.

In order to value the affects/effects of a particular belief or religion I do not have to subscribe to it. How else are various religions going to start appreciating each other? I go enjoy "and value" a wonderful trip to the Egyptian Pyramids of Giza. Look around... I'm giving their beliefs and religion credit and value for my wonderful experience. It doesn't mean Im going to get myself mummified.

 

[waitasec]

I assume a culture is based on many things aside from religion. Yes, religion has played a major role in communities and the creation of the nation as in history and leading to present- leading to the life we live. I'm am not proposing everything about a religion is good. But, some people are better off with a religion and believing a God is watching over them. I mean, it does has it's effects depending on the circumstance. If it was not needed it wouldn't exist.

first i'd like to say i like where this is going

i just want to know why people are better off believing god is watching over them? for me it gives people an undue sense of importance.
we are all in the same boat. i think that if we concentrated on each other rather than what a supernatural being expects of us we would be far better off.

Ya, but many religious people these days have accepted those things. Religion and science upgrades in time and change of views or change in a culture. They are both just dancing around with each other and evolving and spitting out the good and the bad- depending on the people involved and the circumstances. So, once again religion is sort of an empty blame without including the people involved.

but how long did that take?
my own mother, who is 74, is now finally asking for a divorce because she thought god would change my dad and that divorce was a sin...

to be fair it was the religious left that helped out on many of these issues.
this stance is far more humanistic than the right who seem to be pulling their weight around because of the innate characteristic of being religious, being morally superior than non believers just for having a personal relationship with the almighty.

I mean, I spent years believing there was no water in the cosmos cause science told me so. And what about science making that atomic bomb and designing biological weapons and design viruses? It's going to come back and bite sooner or later. This stuff is used just as much as a religious excuse to exterminate a country. A religion does not yield the power to destroy an entire planet. Think about it.

i mentioned this in the above post

science can be arrogant with the knowledge it has discovered....WMD's for example, but then again it's up to us to use it...isn't it?

religion is just a word that hasn't found a meaning because of it's diametrically opposing values, do you know what i mean?
science is on a course for good or bad, it's up to us to decide it has no morality.
so i would have to say the question to this thread is an impossible question to answer because religion and science are 2 completely different things...
if we were to compare which religion has contributed more that would be doable.

Ya, but you're talking about religious institutions with various people pulling the strings and having an agenda. I don't think that can be blamed on the religion itself- perhaps in part. There is religion and then there is the way it is used by people. It has been used to bring value and disvalue. Even a car crashes and kills people and it is all about the circumstances involved and the people driving it- we don't point at the car to blame and crucify- it is nuetral by nature.

ultimately we are dealing with human nature
i would say science is neutral by nature. it is merely a tool to use.
religion would decide how to use it...

 

[waitasec]

Because they hate Muslims and Christian missionaries. They want all of them out of India. It was a big shock to me when I ran across them in India. They have their groups much like the KKK. Anytime you have religion paired nationalism it is a losing proposition. They hate Gandhi because he stood up for the Muslims.

The VHP (one of these groups)has become a group much like the white christian league of the Southern USA.
It is calling for a Declaration of India as a Hindu Nation this includes all those who can trace their religious beliefs back to India like the Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains. But, not Muslims, Christians or Communists. Believe it or not they have very little problem with Atheism because Hindu culture traditionally had groups that were Atheist. In fact Atheism can be traced back to 600 bc in India.

This type of Hindu Nationalist have killed Christians. Just like Christian Missionarries have been caught suppling Terrorists in North East India. They have killed 1000's of Hindu's since 1980.

You must read this about the Christian Terrorism.
BBC News | SOUTH ASIA | 'Church backing Tripura rebels'

I think now you see why Gandhi is so important to me with all the religious nuts running around.

thank you for that reply.
it saddens me to see how much religion causes division among people.
that is why i am not a big fan of it. in fact i hate it, if you hadn't noticed.