Jeremiah
Well-Known Member
Pixie dust.
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What created God?
- Thread starter I.S.L.A.M617
- Start date
Pixie dust.
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
Most theists present creation as a FACT though, not a belief.
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
That's alright. Doesn't mean that it is a fact. And it doesn't mean there is any logic behind what they are saying.
Yes, for the creation of intelligence.Mestamia said:
No, I did not.
Indeed. The first leaves open the possibility of an uncreated intelligence, that therefore does not fall under the requirement for a previous intelligence. The second, similarly, leaves open the possibility of a Chicken not born, but brought about through other means, that does not fall under the requirements of hatching from an egg.
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
Using that same logic though, why do you assume the universe had to be created? Couldn't it just have existed always?
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
I didn't say the Bible was factual, I said most theists present it as such.
Peacewise
Active Member
You know, that is a highly interesting point regarding first cause.
What began the universe?
What began God?
I am fascinated by the thoughts that these two questions provoke, and of course the information from a fellow RF's post that a first cause is unnecessary provides a counterpoint to them.
Since the theists hold that God created the universe, and that God has always existed, and thereby implying that a first cause is unnecessary for God, it seems to me that it is reasonable for the atheists to hold that the universe has always existed... and so of course the debate spirals on to infinity.
Thanks for contributing to pointing that out I.S.L.A.M617.
What began the universe?
What began God?
I am fascinated by the thoughts that these two questions provoke, and of course the information from a fellow RF's post that a first cause is unnecessary provides a counterpoint to them.
Since the theists hold that God created the universe, and that God has always existed, and thereby implying that a first cause is unnecessary for God, it seems to me that it is reasonable for the atheists to hold that the universe has always existed... and so of course the debate spirals on to infinity.
Thanks for contributing to pointing that out I.S.L.A.M617.
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
I.S.L.A.M617 is correct in this respect. I don't know if I would say most, but many theists do present creation as a FACT. That is why there was such a great debate over whether or not Intelligent Design (just a fancy word for Creationism) should be taught in school. It was not faith based, it was trying to claim it was factual base. Even more, if you ask many theists, they will tell you that yes, for a fact, creation is true. That it is a fact, not just a mere belief.
Silver
Just maybe
Possibility 1
God was so intelligent that he devised a way of bringing himself into existence.
Possibility 2
There was a Big Bang which was initiated by future scientists that evolved in the system. In other words, the intelligent descendants of man initiated the big bang from a state of nothingness, and were thus born.
Possibility 3
Nothing exists
:beach:
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
Good one lol
Whether the universe had a beginning seems more a province of science than logic to me...ISLAM said:
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
Whatever you want to call it, why can't that be the possibility? Why are you so insistent on intelligent creation if intelligence is not required to make intelligence?
It has been a while, but as I remember, the evidence points to the universe having a begining in the Big Bang...
The only thing I have been insistent on in this thread is that the two statements:
Intelligence is required to create intelligence
and
There is an eternal intelligence
are logically consistant.
Satans_Serrated_Edge
Deicidal
So you don't believe in evolution then?
Satans_Serrated_Edge
Deicidal
Two words as a general response to the 'god is eternal, universe isn't' crowd - Occams Razor.
Read my post again.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
No it doesn't - we have no idea what, if anything, came before the big bang or any period prior to the planck time. There is no more evidence that the Big Bang was the "beginning" of the universe than there is that, before the big bang, the entire universe consisted of giant fish-monsters.
If intelligence can be eternal than intelligence does not require creation. Whether you admit it or not, it's entirely contradictory.