What Day was Jesus Crucified?

[smokydot]

What I reckon isn't anything different than what the OT legislates.
The OT does not legislate the Passover for the 14th. It legislates the slaughter to be on the 14th.

Lev 23:5 -- "The LORD'S Passover begins at twilight (between the evenings) on the 14th day of the month."

And then the feast of unleavened bread, where the lamb is eaten, is on the 15th.
It would seem that the authors of the gospels were just as confused and ignorant about the situation as you are.

So your understanding is not in agreement with the NT record after all.

And what we have here then is not just a "he said, she said" regarding translations of the OT Hebrew,
what we have here is a modern understanding of ancient practices vs. an ancient written record of the actual practices.

Well, for me, the ancient written record of actual practice carries a heck of a lot more weight on the subject than does a simple modern understanding of those practices.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Lev 23:5 -- "The LORD'S Passover begins at twilight (between the evenings) on the 14th day of the month."

We've been over this. That's not what it says.

So your understanding is not in agreement with the NT record after all.

You got that right.

And what we have here then is not just a "he said, she said" regarding translations of the OT Hebrew,
what we have here is a modern understanding of ancient practices vs. an ancient written record of the actual practices.

Even if you believe in it, you can't expect me to believe that you don't know that I don't believe the NT is in any way a legitimate record of anything.

Well, for me, the ancient written record of actual practice carries a heck of a lot more weight on the subject than does a simple modern understanding of those practices.

It's not a simple modern understanding of those practices. It's a simple ancient understanding of ancient practices that you don't understand because you take your cues from a book written by people who were either clueless or willful falsifiers.

 

[smokydot]

We've been over this. That's not what it says.
You got that right.
Even if you believe in it, you can't expect me to believe that you don't know that I don't believe the NT is in any way a legitimate record of anything.
It's not a simple modern understanding of those practices. It's a simple ancient understanding of ancient practices that you don't understand because you take your cues from a book written by people who were either clueless or willful falsifiers.

. . .and the Hebrew scholars have no agenda. . .uh huh.

You and fallingblood. . .birds of a feather.

 

[Poisonshady313]

. . .and the Hebrew scholars have no agenda. . .uh huh.

You figure Moses had an anti-Jesus agenda too? Or do you just figure that the only people in this universe qualified to properly translate Hebrew are Christians who mainly deal with texts written in Greek or Latin?

You and fallingblood. . .birds of a feather.

Did someone just expose you to that expression yesterday? because I'm not sure you fully grasp what it means or how to use it.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I should also mention that the whole "three days and three nights" business would make a friday crucifixion impossible. Your nonsense about part of a day being considered a full day is silly.

If the tomb were empty before dawn on Sunday, the crucifixion would have to have been on Wednesday.

Thank you. I totally agree. I was waiting on the the Jewish perspective as to what a "day" means....:clap

 

[fallingblood]

Except that part in the NT where he rises from the dead, as he raised Lazarus from the dead.

That had to do with what?

Correct. After the fact, it could be seen what the whole meaning of the Passover liturgy was.

That is just ridiculous. Because there is no suggestion that the first followers of Jesus ever stopped celebrating Passover. The Passover has nothing to do with Jesus. The fact that you would even suggest that it does shows your ignorance on the subject.

That's where the translations differ between Judaism and Christianity.

Nope.

That would be "supposed" contradictions, in contradistinction to differences.

Nope, that would be contradictions. Check out Bart Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus or Interrupting Jesus for a quick overview.

Do you find any material differences between the NIV and NRSV?

Yes. Isaiah 7:14, where the NRSV uses the better translation of young woman instead of a faulty translation of virgin. John 3:16 also has a distinct difference. Just two off the top of my head.

 

[fallingblood]

Thank you. I totally agree. I was waiting on the the Jewish perspective as to what a "day" means....:clap

I am glad he stated that as well. I have to say Poisonshady has done a great job in this thread.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Thank you. I totally agree. I was waiting on the the Jewish perspective as to what a "day" means....:clap

God called to the light: "Day," and to the darkness He called: "Night." And there was evening and there was morning. One day.

Genesis 1:5

I had already gone over this... I forget if it was in this thread, or a few dozen others like it... but here it goes again.

We learn from the story of Moses going up the mountain for 40 days and 40 nights that it actually means 40 days and 40 nights... the people miscalculated Moses' return by only one day because Moses started his ascent during the daytime, and they counted that day. That was a mistake. They should have started counting when the sun fell on the day of his ascent, because that is the beginning of a calendar day.

And because they believed that a part of a day is counted as a whole day, the sin of the golden calf happened.


There is a significant difference between "third day" and "three days, three nights".

Again... in a thread that may include but is not limited to this one, I used the analogy of a baseball game.

If a guy says he's going to make a beer run after three innings, and he leaves during the third inning, he is a liar. He would have to leave at some point during the fourth. However, if he said he was going to make a beer run "in the third"... then he could go during either the top or the bottom of the third inning.

This whole "Jews reckoned a part of a day as a whole day" business is crap.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I am glad he stated that as well. I have to say Poisonshady has done a great job in this thread.

Thank you.

 

[Beta]

Christ died on Wednesday before the Passover sabbath on Thursday not the weekly sabbath on Saturday. In this way He was in the tomb for the full 3 days and 3 nights He said He would be. Thursday night Friday night and Saturday night Thursday day Friday day and Saturday day. In other words there were two sabbaths that week, the Passover sabbath on Thursday and the regular weekly sabbath on Saturday.

I would just like to say that you are right friend
and I was wrong in my reply # 176 when I said Jesus was in the tomb beginning wednesday night. It was a mistake on my part counting from a human understanding. Sorry !

 

[Poisonshady313]

I would just like to say that you are right friend
and I was wrong in my reply # 176 when I said Jesus was in the tomb beginning wednesday night. It was a mistake on my part counting from a human understanding. Sorry !

Don't apologize. For the sake of three days and three nights, you are closer to being right. (I'll have to review post 176 to see if I can actually call you right, but for the purpose of this particular post, I can say that you're closer than truseeker)

Three days and three nights. That means the tomb would be empty before the end of the fourth night.

Wednesday night
Thursday
Thursday night
Friday
Friday night
Saturday

Three nights, three days. The fourth night would be Saturday night... and since, at least according to John, the tomb was empty before dawn on Sunday, and according to Genesis 1:5, darkness is night... it would have to be a Wednesday crucifixion, with the counting of days and nights in the tomb beginning on Wednesday night.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I just took a look at post 176 Beta... and you were right.

well, obviously I reject the whole "risen" business... but your counting of the days necessary to make three days and three nights was spot on.

 

[Beta]

Don't apologize. For the sake of three days and three nights, you are closer to being right. (I'll have to review post 176 to see if I can actually call you right, but for the purpose of this particular post, I can say that you're closer than truseeker)
Three days and three nights. That means the tomb would be empty before the end of the fourth night.
Wednesday night
Thursday
Thursday night
Friday
Friday night
Saturday
Three nights, three days. The fourth night would be Saturday night... and since, at least according to John, the tomb was empty before dawn on Sunday, and according to Genesis 1:5, darkness is night... it would have to be a Wednesday crucifixion, with the counting of days and nights in the tomb beginning on Wednesday night.

Sorry friend but my reckoning was wrong since I mistakenly (humanly) included wed night 'as wednesday ' when in fact GOD's days and nights start with sunset - consequently from sunset wed it would already be thursday (night) when Jesus was laid in the tomb.
It was of course a wednesday crucifixion but the burial starting with thursday night and the 3rd night starting friday sunset to sat morning and the 3rd daytime from sat morning to sat sunset when Jesus rose. It was not a sunday resurrection since he was already risen by the time the empty tomb was discovered.:yes:

 

[rusra02]

I raised this question in another thread. It was claimed that there were no disagreements in the Bible, or the story of Jesus. As I have done on various occasions, I raised this question, on what day was Jesus crucified?

Upon a close examination of the Gospels, this simple question becomes a little difficult. For reference, the translation I will be using for various verses will be the NRSV.

We will begin with what Mark states (I use Mark as Matthew and Luke used Mark as a source and generally agree).

Mark 14:12 "On the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb is sacrificed, his disciples said to him, 'Where do you want us to go and make the preparations for you to eat the Passover?"

In other words, the passage is referring to the Day of Preparation of the Passover; the day before Passover.

Mark 15:25, it still being Passover, tells us that jesus was crucified at nine o'clock in the morning. So clearly, in Mark, and the synoptics follow along, Jesus was crucified on the day of Passover. For instance, Matthew 26:17 states "On the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "where do you want us to make the preparations for your to eat the Passover?"

Another key here is that both Matthew and Mark place the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Break on the day of Preparation of the Passover; the day before Passover. Luke simply lumps it all together: Luke 22:1 "Now the festival of Unleavened Bread, which is called the Passover, was near." There is no doubt that in any of these three accounts, the authors are talking about the festival that lasted 8 days.

It should also be noted that the synoptics all portray the last supper as a Passover meal.

Now, moving to John, we see a difference. John 19:14 "Now it was the day of Preparation for the Passover; and it was about noon." The context of this verse is with Jesus' trial before Pilate. At this point, Jesus had already been flogged, and is now getting the verdict; he will be crucified, as stated in verse 16. So for John, is is the Day of Preparation for the Passover; or the day before Passover, that Jesus is crucified. Clearly, there is a disagreement here.

However, this is not the only evidence we have that Passover had not yet occurred. John 18:28 "Then they took Jesus from Caiaphas to Pilate's headquarters. It was early in the morning. They themselves did not enter the headquarters, so as to avoid ritual defilement and to be able to eat the Passover." Clearly, this shows that Passover had not yet occurred. Since, in the account of John, the last supper had already occurred, there is no way it could have been a Passover meal; according to John.

Now, some have claimed that John 19:31 ["Since it was the day of Preparation, the Jews did not want the bodies left on the cross during the sabbath, especially because that sabbath was a day of great solemnity."] points to the idea that it had to be Passover. However, the main reason for the confusion is a lack of understanding of the terms Day of Preparation for the Passover, and day of Preparation. Some try to combine these two phrases to make them both signify one thing. However, that simply can not logically be done.

The Day of Preparation for the Passover is a term that signifies the day before the Passover. On this day, the sacrificial lamb was slaughtered in the temple. The term can only mean one day, and that is the day before Passover.

The day of Preparation was the day before the Sabbath. In other words, it was Friday. The day of Preparation, and the Day of Preparation for the Passover though could be the same day on occasion. It all has to do with when Passover falls. A big mistake that Christians do is assume that it falls always on a Friday. That simply is not true. We place it on Friday because of theological reasons. However, the Jewish Calendar, and our calendar do not sync up perfectly. For instance, Passover this coming year (2011), Passover will begin at sunset of April 19th, which is a Tuesday.

That is why some translations use the term Special Sabbath. When Passover fell on the Sabbath, it was considered a Special Sabbath.

As we can see then, the synoptics and John disagree on the day in which Jesus is crucified.

No, the Gospel accounts all agree Jesus was put to death on Nisan 14, the Jewish Passover. The term Preparation can refer to the preparation made for the Sabbath, as at Mark 15:42.

As it-2 p. 583 explains, "This word seems to mark, not the day preceding Nisan 14, but the day preceding the weekly Sabbath, which, in this instance, was “a great one,” namely, not only a Sabbath by virtue of being Nisan 15, the first day of the actual Festival of Unfermented Cakes, but also a weekly Sabbath. This is understandable, since, as already stated, “Passover” was sometimes used to refer to the entire festival."​

Christ perfectly carried out the regulations of the Law, including the requirement to celebrate the Passover on Nisan 14. (Ex 12:6; Le 23:5; ) The day of Jesus’ trial and death could be viewed as the “preparation of the passover” in the sense that it was the preparation for the seven-day Festival of Unfermented Cakes that began the next day. Because of their closeness on the calendar, the entire festival itself was often included in the term “Passover.”
Rather than quickly concluding the Bible contradicts itself, a more thoughtful and thorough examination will most often lead to the conclusion Jesus made at John 17:17, where he said in prayer to God; "Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth."

 

[smokydot]

That had to do with what?
That is just ridiculous. Because there is no suggestion that the first followers of Jesus ever stopped celebrating Passover. The Passover has nothing to do with Jesus. The fact that you would even suggest that it does shows your ignorance on the subject.
Nope.
Nope, that would be contradictions. Check out Bart Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus or Interrupting Jesus for a quick overview.
Yes. Isaiah 7:14, where the NRSV uses the better translation of young woman instead of a faulty translation of virgin. John 3:16 also has a distinct difference. Just two off the top of my head.

You are so misinformed. . .

 

[smokydot]

I am glad he stated that as well. I have to say Poisonshady has done a great job in this thread.

Birds of a feather. . .

 

[smokydot]

God called to the light: "Day," and to the darkness He called: "Night." And there was evening and there was morning. One day.
Genesis 1:5
I had already gone over this... I forget if it was in this thread, or a few dozen others like it... but here it goes again.
We learn from the story of Moses going up the mountain for 40 days and 40 nights that it actually means 40 days and 40 nights... the people miscalculated Moses' return by only one day because Moses started his ascent during the daytime, and they counted that day. That was a mistake. They should have started counting when the sun fell on the day of his ascent, because that is the beginning of a calendar day.

And because they believed that a part of a day is counted as a whole day, the sin of the golden calf happened.
There is a significant difference between "third day" and "three days, three nights".
Again... in a thread that may include but is not limited to this one, I used the analogy of a baseball game.
If a guy says he's going to make a beer run after three innings, and he leaves during the third inning, he is a liar. He would have to leave at some point during the fourth. However, if he said he was going to make a beer run "in the third"... then he could go during either the top or the bottom of the third inning.

This whole "Jews reckoned a part of a day as a whole day" business is crap.

Did you not just verify (in red) above that they did, in fact, reckon part of a day as a day?

 

[smokydot]

Christ died on Wednesday before the Passover sabbath on Thursday not the weekly sabbath on Saturday. In this way He was in the tomb for the full 3 days and 3 nights He said He would be. Thursday night Friday night and Saturday night Thursday day Friday day and Saturday day. In other words there were two sabbaths that week, the Passover sabbath on Thursday and the regular weekly sabbath on Saturday.

Passover was not a Sabbath.

 

[smokydot]

I guess I'll just mention that some people suggest that because the first day of Passover is a holy convocation, that one is prohibited from doing work on that day, it is itself like a sabbath... and may or may not have been called a sabbath by John... which would make the sabbath John's talking about not be the weekly Saturday sabbath. You don't seem to have taken that into consideration.

But I have taken that into consideration.

John likewise reports, as do all the gospels, Jesus died after eating the Passover meal (Jn 13:2, 18:1) and on the day before the Sabbath (Jn 19:31).
After eating the Passover meal excludes the day before Passover.
John was not referring to the day before Passover, but to the day before the Saturday Sabbath, the first day that year of the seven-days of Unleavened Bread.

 

[smokydot]

I should also mention that the whole "three days and three nights" business would make a friday crucifixion impossible. Your nonsense about part of a day being considered a full day is silly.
If the tomb were empty before dawn on Sunday, the crucifixion would have to have been on Wednesday.

Didn't you verify in post #257 that they counted part of a day as a day?