What Day was Jesus Crucified?

[Poisonshady313]

Yeah, I got that, but the information provided in post #212 is corrective of Poisonshady313

No, it's not.

The correction is: Passover lamb was sacrified in the evening of the 14th, eaten the night of the 14th, and the following Passover day Jesus was crucified.

Wrong. The lamb is sacrificed on the 14th and eaten hours later, on the 15th.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I knew this was gonna be a good debate especially when we started to hear from the Jews who actually observe the tradition verses those who don't.....

 

[Poisonshady313]

And because of that, I see no reason to disagree with what he says about Passover, as he celebrates it.

Are you sure about that?

Every year since I was born, with the exception of 2004 because I was in Spain with my High School Spanish class.

 

[fallingblood]

And of course, they have nothing vested in trying to show that Jesus the Christ was not the Passover Lamb, sacrificed on Passover.
Even the NT reports their long-standing denial. . .not exactly an unbiased source on the subject.
Nor is it surprising you prefer that source, in light of your motive to show the NT to be fraught with error. . .and not exactly an unbiased pursuit of the subject.

I don't think they would have anything vested in this. Considering that the first Christians were Jews, and by that time anyway, Jewish scripture was already written, I see no evidence of them going back and rewriting it all to just deny Jesus. More so, Jesus dying on Passover would not be the first Jew who did.

For Jews, Jesus dying on the cross just reaffirmed the idea that he was not the Messiah. The idea of anyone being the Passover Lamb is a Christian idea. It doesn't figure into Judaism, and so would be a waste to really try to show it not to be.

Finally, dying on Passover did not make one the Passover Lamb. Especially since the Passover lamb died the day before.

Oh, and as a side note, I do not deny that the Old Testament has errors or contradictions. I personally do not deal with them as I am interested in Early Christianity and Jesus. As you see, the contradictions I point out deal with just that. And more so, I don't think the New Testament is fraught with errors. I believe it has some problems, but I don't dismiss it. If I did, I wouldn't spend so much time studying it.

The translations with which I am familiar are used throughout Christendom.

Means very little. Especially since the KJV is based on outdated and faulty research, and the NIV is an apologist tool. If they were so great, there would be no need to redo the translations.

So Christendom has no good translations?
What English translations would you recommend?

For the OT I use the Jewish Study Bible. It is the New JPS translation. For the entire Bible, I use the NRSV. Those are my primary Bibles.

 

[fallingblood]

You can't leave out the 15th.

Look at it this way:

The 7 day festival known as Passover is kicked off by the Feast of Unleavened Bread on the 15th of Nisan.


Again:

Exodus 12:8
They shall eat the flesh on that night - roasted over the fire - and unleavened bread; with bitter herbs shall they eat it.


Exodus 12:14-16
This day shall become a remembrance for you and you shall celebrate it as a festival for the Lord; for your generations, as an eternal decree shall you celebrate it. For a seven-day period shall you eat unleavened bread, but on the previous day you shall nullify the leaven from your homes; for anyone who eats leavened food- that soul shall be cut off from Israel, from the first day to the seventh day.

On the first day shall be a holy convocation and on the seventh day shall be a holy convocation for you, no work may be done on them, except for what must be eaten for any person - only that may be done for you.

Exodus 12:18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month in the evening shall you eat matzos, until the twenty-first day of the month in the evening.


From 15 to 21 is 7 days. And we learn from verse 12:15 that the leaven is nullified on the previous day. Which is why Matzah will be eaten from the 14th teill the 21st. But the Feast... that's on the 15th... the day of holy convocation. That's when the lamb that was slaughtered during the daytime was eaten.

Thank you for clearing that all up.

 

[smokydot]

I'm saying it loud and I'm saying it proud: smokydot knows not of what he speaks. All the bolds, underlines, references to previous posts, and unmitigated arrogance won't change that.

Then Lev 23:5 should change that--"The LORD's Passover begins at twilight on the 14th day of the month."

As you know, twilight would be the first part of the day of Nisan 14.

The fourteenth is a day that is being very sloppily referred to as "Passover". This should not be.

And it's being sloppily referred to all over the OT! . .as in

Nu 9:2-5, 11 -- "Celebrate Passover at twilight on the fourtheenth day in accordance with its rules and regulations. . .they did so in the Desert of Sinai at twilight on the fourteenth day. . .they are to celebrate it on the fourteenth day." ​

Twilight was the beginning of the 14th, Passover. They slaughtered the lamb in the evening and ate it the night of the 14th, Passover,
which continued to be the 14th until twilight the next day.​

Jos 5:10 -- "On the evening of the fourteenth day, while camped at Gilgal on the plains of Jericho, the Israelites celebrated the Passover."

Ezr 6:19 -- "On the fourteenth day, the exiles celebrated the Passover."

2Chr 30:15 -- "They slaughtered the Passover lamb on the fourteenth day."

They both slaughtered and celebrated the Passover on the fourteenth day.

The 14th, in the afternoon, is the time when the Passover offering is slaughtered.

That is where the problem lies--in the translations.

The translations of all these texts throughout Christendom state evening, not afternoon.
The afternoon of the 14th is nearing the ending of the 14th at twilight, just a few hours before the beginning of the 15th, which is the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
But the two feasts should begin 24 hours apart, not a few hours apart.

Therefore, the Passover lamb is slaughtered and roased in the evening, the first part of Nisan 14, and eaten the night of Nisan 14.
The following day of Nisan 14 Passover, the day on which Jesus died, is the Day of Preparation for the Sabbath which begins Unleavened Bread on Nisan 15-21.

There is no special name for this day. It's just "before Passover".
The 7 day festival that begins at sundown, when it becomes the 15th, is called Passover. Alternately, it may also be called the festival of unleavened bread. You can call it Aunt Sally if it makes you happy, but the fact remains that there was no feast on the 14th.

That's not what the Scriptures in red state.

According to Lev 23:5-6, it's eight days of feast -- "The LORD'S Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day. On the fiftheenth day, the LORD'S Feast of Unleavened Bread begins; for seven days you must eat bread made without yeast."

That's one day of Passover feast, plus seven days of Unleavened Bread Feast.

When the sun sets and it becomes the 15th, that's when the period of time called "Passover" begins. There is no special name disignated for the time before Passover when the Qorban Pesach (passover offering) is slaughtered.

In Ex 12:6-8, they are to be slaughtered at twilight of the 14th, which is the beginning of the 14th, then roasted and eaten in the night of the 14th.

 

[smokydot]

No, it is not incorrect. It's more correct than any translation you've ever read in your life.
When it's translated directly from the language it was written in by people who are masters of the language, it's rather foolish to suggest it's inferior

Probably so.

to something that has gone through several different languages on the path from Hebrew to English by people who rely on concordances.

The texts of Christendom today were translated from the Hebrew.

 

[smokydot]

Because unlike the Jewish scholars who faithfully translate the text from its original language without an axe to grind, it can be very easily said, and very easily believed, that Christian translators put their own spin on things in order to show that Jesus is who Christians say he is.

No bias there. . .

So what we have here is a "he said, she said."

And it's the words of Jesus recorded in the NT that tell who he is.

 

[smokydot]

Every year since I was born, with the exception of 2004 because I was in Spain with my High School Spanish class.

Slaughtered a Passover lamb?

 

[Poisonshady313]

Then Lev 23:5 should change that--"The LORD's Passover begins at twilight on the 14th day of the month."

In the first month on the fourteenth of the month in the afternoon is the time of the passover offering to the Lord. And on the fifteenth day of this month is the festival of unleavened bread to the Lord;...

You are working on a mistranslation. Not me. The "passover offering" describes the slaughter of the lamb that will be eaten ON PASSOVER. i.e. on the 15th, at the feast of unleavened bread.

Nu

9:2-5

, 11 -- "Celebrate Passover at twilight on the fourtheenth day in accordance with its rules and regulations. . .they did so in the Desert of Sinai at twilight on the fourteenth day. . .they are to celebrate it on the fourteenth day."

The children of Israel shall make the passover-offering in its appointed time. On the fourteenth day of this month in the afternoon shall you make it, in its appointed time; according to all its decrees and laws shall you make it.
Moses spoke to the Children of Israel to make the passover-offering. They made the passover-offering in the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, in the afternoon, in the Wilderness of Sinai; according to everything that the Lord had commanded Moses, so the Children of Israel did.

Jos 5:10

-- "On the evening of the fourteenth day, while camped at Gilgal on the plains of Jericho, the Israelites celebrated the Passover."

The Children of Israel encamped at Gilgal and performed the Passover-offering on the fourteenth day of the month in the evening, in the plains of Jericho.


It's clear from all the verses that the evening is later in the day, but before sundown. The switch between the 14th and the 15th happens at sundown. So even if we go with evening for all those other verses we've covered, what I say still stands.

Ezr 6:19

-- "On the fourteenth day, the exiles celebrated the Passover."

The people of the exile brought the passover-offering on the fourteenth day of the first month.

2

Chr

30:15 -- "They slaughtered the Passover lamb on the fourteenth day."

That's the first one you got right.

They both slaughtered and celebrated the Passover on the fourteenth day.

Wrong. Because every time your version said "celebrated the Passover", the actual text said made the passover-offering... or, in other words, slaughtered the Passover lamb".

That

is where the problem lies--in the translations.

Absolutely.

The translations of all these texts throughout Christendom state evening, not afternoon.

Again, if you consider that the evening is before sundown, then it's the same difference.

The afternoon of the 14th is nearing the ending of the 14th at twilight, just a few hours before the beginning of the 15th, which is the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

Right. I hear you say it, yet everything else in your posts suggest you don't understand what you're saying. The afternoon of the 14th is nearing the ending of the 14th... just a few hours before the beginning of the 15th, which is the Fest of Unleavened Bread. That's when they eat the lamb that was slaughtered on the fourteenth in the afternoon.

But the two feasts should begin 24 hours apart, not a few hours apart.

THERE ARE NO TWO FEASTS!!!!!!!!! the feast doesn't occur when the slaughter occurs. The feast occurs hours after the slaughter. At the feast of unleavened bread.

Therefore, the Passover lamb is slaughtered and roased in the evening, the first part of Nisan 14, and eaten the night of Nisan 14.

No. The Passover lamb is slaughtered in the afternoon (the second part) of the 14th, and is eaten at night, the first part of the 15th.

That's one day of Passover feast, plus seven days of Unleavened Bread Feast.

WRONG.

What you mistake as "celebrating passover" or being some sort of passover feast on the 14th is really just the slaughtering of the lamb.

The lamb is not eaten immediately after it is slaughtered. It is eaten a few hours later.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Slaughtered a Passover lamb?

No. Celebrated Passover. But apparently, you can't tell the difference.

 

[smokydot]

I don't think they would have anything vested in this. Considering that the first Christians were Jews, and by that time anyway, Jewish scripture was already written, I see no evidence of them going back and rewriting it all to just deny Jesus. More so, Jesus dying on Passover would not be the first Jew who did.

For Jews, Jesus dying on the cross just reaffirmed the idea that he was not the Messiah.

Except that part in the NT where he rises from the dead, as he raised Lazarus from the dead.

The idea of anyone being the Passover Lamb is a Christian idea.

Correct. After the fact, it could be seen what the whole meaning of the Passover liturgy was.

That Christain understanding is shown in posts #178 and #179.

It doesn't figure into Judaism, and so would be a waste to really try to show it not to be.
Finally, dying on Passover did not make one the Passover Lamb. Especially since the Passover lamb died the day before.

That's where the translations differ between Judaism and Christianity.

Oh, and as a side note, I do not deny that the Old Testament has errors or contradictions. I personally do not deal with them as I am interested in Early Christianity and Jesus. As you see, the contradictions I point out deal with just that.

That would be "supposed" contradictions, in contradistinction to differences.

And more so, I don't think the New Testament is fraught with errors. I believe it has some problems, but I don't dismiss it. If I did, I wouldn't spend so much time studying it.
Means very little. Especially since the KJV is based on outdated and faulty research, and the NIV is an apologist tool.

Do you find any material differences between the NIV and NRSV?

If they were so great, there would be no need to redo the translations.
For the OT I use the Jewish Study Bible. It is the New JPS translation. For the entire Bible, I use the NRSV. Those are my primary Bibles.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Probably so. The texts of Christendom today were translated from the Hebrew.

If that's true of any of them, then it was done by people without knowledge of the language.... by people who relied completely on concordances and lexicons and such.

 

[smokydot]

didn't you say...
that's what i mean.
just as long as your religious beliefs stay clear out of peoples inalienable rights simply because believers are not morally superior

Are you confused?

If your Constitutional rights are being violated, we have Courts for redress.

What's going on with you here?

consider this.
whenever someone of faith acts as though they are morally superior, which is a fallacy as i have pointed out, where do they get the idea that it is their duty to impose on other peoples rights?
from their lack of faith in god perhaps? but they are not morally superior, as you have said yourself.
tell me, was the emancipation proclamation, civil rights and equal rights for women rightly subjected to religious dogma? i know that the religious helped pave the way with civil rights and the emancipation of the slaves...but you cannot deny that all of these RIGHTS were also being subjected by religious dogma.
i see 3 things...
1. denial; using the believers right to their opinion, and to assume their opinion is morally superior than others.
2. fear; when someone tries to take control over someone else's right it is because of fear
and it stems from
3. lack of faith; since they are of the opinion of being morally superior they are helping god. does god really need help? can one be morally superior? or do they lack faith in god?

Are you okay?

Are you fearful someone is going to take control over your rights?

We have laws and courts to protect you. There's no need to fear.

Talk to me.

 

[smokydot]

In the first month on the fourteenth of the month in the afternoon is the time of the passover offering to the Lord. And on the fifteenth day of this month is the festival of unleavened bread to the Lord;...
You are working on a mistranslation. Not me. The "passover offering" describes the slaughter of the lamb that will be eaten ON PASSOVER. i.e. on the 15th, at the feast of unleavened bread.
The children of Israel shall make the passover-offering in its appointed time. On the fourteenth day of this month in the afternoon shall you make it, in its appointed time; according to all its decrees and laws shall you make it.
Moses spoke to the Children of Israel to make the passover-offering. They made the passover-offering in the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, in the afternoon, in the Wilderness of Sinai; according to everything that the Lord had commanded Moses, so the Children of Israel did.
The Children of Israel encamped at Gilgal and performed the Passover-offering on the fourteenth day of the month in the evening, in the plains of Jericho.
It's clear from all the verses that the evening is later in the day, but before sundown. The switch between the 14th and the 15th happens at sundown. So even if we go with evening for all those other verses we've covered, what I say still stands
The people of the exile brought the passover-offering on the fourteenth day of the first month.
That's the first one you got right.
Wrong. Because every time your version said "celebrated the Passover", the actual text said made the passover-offering... or, in other words, slaughtered the Passover lamb".
Absolutely.
Again, if you consider that the evening is before sundown, then it's the same difference.
Right. I hear you say it, yet everything else in your posts suggest you don't understand what you're saying. The afternoon of the 14th is nearing the ending of the 14th... just a few hours before the beginning of the 15th, which is the Fest of Unleavened Bread. That's when they eat the lamb that was slaughtered on the fourteenth in the afternoon.
THERE ARE NO TWO FEASTS!!!!!!!!! the feast doesn't occur when the slaughter occurs. The feast occurs hours after the slaughter. At the feast of unleavened bread.
No. The Passover lamb is slaughtered in the afternoon (the second part) of the 14th, and is eaten at night, the first part of the 15th.
WRONG.
What you mistake as "celebrating passover" or being some sort of passover feast on the 14th is really just the slaughtering of the lamb.
The lamb is not eaten immediately after it is slaughtered. It is eaten a few hours later.

Okay, let's get past our different translations of the OT.

The OT legislates the Passover for the 14th, and Unleavened Bread for the 15th.
Lev 23:5-6 -- "The LORD'S Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day of the month.
On the fifteenth day of the month the LORD'S Feast of Unleavened Bread begins."

You reckon the Passover lamb to be slaughtered late on the 14th, and then eaten a few hours later on the 15th.

But this year, the first day of Unleavened Bread on the 15th was a Saturday Sabbath.

Okay, now let's move out of the Hebrew and into the Greek, the language of the NT.
The gospels report Jesus eating the Passover.
The gospels report Jesus being crucified after eating the Passover.
The four gospels report Jesus being crucified on the day before the Sabbath of Unleavened Bread on the 15th (which would make it Friday, the 14th).

See Mt 27:62-64; Mk 15:42-47; Lk 23:54-56; Jn 19:31.​

So according to your reckoning, Jesus died after the Passover meal on the 15th, which was a Saturday Sabbath and the first day of Unleavened Bread, the 15th.​

But the four gospels report that he died the day before the Saturday Sabbath (see Scriptures above).​

This is clear, written, ancient evidence that Jesus died on the 14th, after eating Passover, which would have to have been on the 14th rather than the Sabbath 15th.​

 

[Poisonshady313]

Okay, let's get past our different translations of the OT.

The OT legislates the Passover for the 14th, and Unleavened Bread for the 15th (Lev 23:5-6).
You reckon the Passover lamb to be slaughtered late on the 14th, and then eaten a few hours later on the 15th.

What I reckon isn't anything different than what the OT legislates.

The OT does not legislate the Passover for the 14th. It legislates the slaughter to be on the 14th. And then the feast of unleavened bread, where the lamb is eaten, is on the 15th.

The gospels report Jesus eating the Passover.
The gospels report Jesus being crucified after eating the Passover.
The four gospels report Jesus being crucified on the day before the Sabbath of Unleavened Bread on the 15th (which would make it Friday, the 14th).

See Mt 27:62-64; Mk 15:42-47; Lk 23:54-56; Jn 19:31.​

So according to your reckoning, Jesus died after the Passover meal on the 15th, which was a Saturday Sabbath and the first day of Unleavened Bread, the 15th.​

But the four gospels report that he died the day before the Saturday Sabbath (see Scriptures above).​

This is clear, written, ancient evidence that Jesus died on the 14th, after eating Passover, which would have to have been on the 14th rather than the Sabbath 15th.​

It would seem that the authors of the gospels were just as confused and ignorant about the situation as you are.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I wonder if it's worth it to anybody for me to detail all the things that are wrong with smokydot's last post. It would probably take a while.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I guess I'll just mention that some people suggest that because the first day of Passover is a holy convocation, that one is prohibited from doing work on that day, it is itself like a sabbath... and may or may not have been called a sabbath by John... which would make the sabbath John's talking about not be the weekly Saturday sabbath. You don't seem to have taken that into consideration.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I should also mention that the whole "three days and three nights" business would make a friday crucifixion impossible. Your nonsense about part of a day being considered a full day is silly.

If the tomb were empty before dawn on Sunday, the crucifixion would have to have been on Wednesday.

 

[waitasec]

Are you confused?

If your Constitutional rights are being violated, we have Courts for redress.

What's going on with you here?
Are you okay?

Are you fearful someone is going to take control over your rights?

We have laws and courts to protect you. There's no need to fear.

Talk to me.

i am fine, thanks for asking

i am speaking for my gay brothers and sisters. same sex marriage is still illegal because the religious believe they are morally superior and have the right to impose their beliefs on others.
that is why i brought up the emancipation proclamation, civil rights and equal rights for women. were these issues rightly subjected to religious dogma?

this is totally off topic and for that i am sorry.
if you want to continue we can PM each other.