What Day was Jesus Crucified?

[angellous_evangellous]

E-w-w-w-w. . .feathers a little ruffled there?
Who rubbed you with a hot brick?

If you are in a position to determine that my translation is correct, nothing else matters or is relevant to it.

Considering you didn't provide a translation that is "yours," you aren't in a position to interact with what I have to say on the subject.

With an interlinear, you're not reading Greek... you're reading English, and someone else's translation at that.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I haven't come accross this in my reading.

(It seems to me that women would be in charge of all burial rights, so men don't have to touch a dead body)

.... I think that I'm right about this....

See
Jewish funerary customs, practices and rites in the Second Temple period
By Rachel Hachlili, page 480

"Preparation of the body for burial (usually the duty of a woman) consisted of..."

Possibly but I was taking my Que from;

Jewish Life Cycle / Rituals: Funeral Customs
"Most well organized communities offer the services a sacred burial society (Chevra Kaddisha), which will prepare the body for burial. Men prepare men and women prepare women."

 

[Dirty Penguin]

They maintain that almah means maiden, which Mary was, so the prophecy is not a lie.

Who maintains "maiden"....the past few posts some have maintained "virgin".....

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Possibly but I was taking my Que from;

Jewish Life Cycle / Rituals: Funeral Customs
"Most well organized communities offer the services a sacred burial society (Chevra Kaddisha), which will prepare the body for burial. Men prepare men and women prepare women."

But this doesn't address our time period. Jesus was in the Second Temple Period, and the rabbis represent Rabbinic Judiaism which started in the 2nd century CE.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

But this doesn't address our time period. Jesus was in the Second Temple Period, and the rabbis represent Rabbinic Judiaism which started in the 2nd century CE.

No problem.

But can you see where the confusion come into play? The bible says he was put in the tomb and Joseph and Nicodemus brought all the aloe and myrrh and wrapped him and left him. I was not aware, in Jewish culture, that after this particular proceedure was done to a supposed dead body there would need to be further preparations done. Time for some more research on my part.....:sad:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

No problem.

But can you see where the confusion come into play? The bible says he was put in the tomb and Joseph and Nicodemus brought all the aloe and myrrh and wrapped him and left him. I was not aware, in Jewish culture, that after this particular proceedure was done to a supposed dead body there would need to be further preparations done. Time for some more research on my part.....:sad:

O, yeah I can. And like I said, I could be wrong, but I've never come across this in my reading, but from what I have read I lean strongly towards women normally doing all the preparations of dead bodies. And it would be a supreme act of devotion, IMHO, if a man were to do anything like it.

I need to research it, too. If you find something definitive, please let me know.

 

[fallingblood]

He didn't. He used parthenos.

Christians translate it as virgin, and indeed some Christian traditions believe that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus. But the word itself does not have the strength to mean "virgin" by its plain usage -- it needs a qualifier, like "no man has ever touched her, so she was a virgin."

Okay. I can see where the Greek really helps here.

 

[Harmonious]

I haven't come accross this in my reading.

(It seems to me that women would be in charge of all burial rights, so men don't have to touch a dead body)

.... I think that I'm right about this....

See
Jewish funerary customs, practices and rites in the Second Temple period
By Rachel Hachlili, page 480

"Preparation of the body for burial (usually the duty of a woman) consisted of..."

I don't know about Ms. Hachlili, but the information as you have presented it is incorrect.

There are both men and women in a Chevra Kadisha (burial society). Failingblood is correct: men attend men, and women attend women.

The only Jews forbidden to have contact with the dead by birth are Cohanim.

During Temple times, anyone coming in contact with the dead were forbidden to go to the Temple, until a complicated ritual was done, involving the ashes of a Red Heifer. Women had dealings in the Temple as much as men did. Only Cohanim (and Nazarites) were forbidden to have contact with the dead.

 

[Harmonious]

But this doesn't address our time period. Jesus was in the Second Temple Period, and the rabbis represent Rabbinic Judiaism which started in the 2nd century CE.

No - Rabbinic Judaism existed for as long as God had given the Jews the Torah.

It just didn't have the NAME until the second century, CE. The Pharisees were the purveyors of Rabbinic Judaism during the Temple times.

Today, we are Orthodox Jews. (And the name didn't appear until the 1800s, I'm aware.)

 

[Harmonious]

O, yeah I can. And like I said, I could be wrong, but I've never come across this in my reading, but from what I have read I lean strongly towards women normally doing all the preparations of dead bodies. And it would be a supreme act of devotion, IMHO, if a man were to do anything like it.

Why would you consider it a supreme act of devotion?

 

[Beta]

I raised questions regarding that 3 day business here (http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2273573-post407.html). As far as anointing the body of men....I don't think women, in Jewish culture, are allowed to perform burial rights on men nor are the men to perform them on women. I could see that happening if the man was alive and the women were acting as nurses...bringing additional ointments to help heal the wounds.

You could well be right friend but had you read a bit further in my post you would have seen that this particular anointing was never meant to take place anyway. But thanks for the info !

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I don't know about Ms. Hachlili, but the information as you have presented it is incorrect.

There are both men and women in a Chevra Kadisha (burial society). Failingblood is correct: men attend men, and women attend women.

No one's going to steal my thunder.......I said this back in post #482....If FB said it first then cool...:bow:

But I'm glad you chimed in because this is the way I've always understood the burial rites of men and women in Judaism. I couldn't imagine it was lawful for a woman that is not married to the man to be able to look upon his body or touch that person, be they alive or dead. This is just one of the reasons I find the women visiting the tomb to be suspect.

Not that you care but If the body of Yeshua was removed, dressed and wrapped in the burial linen them I'm confused as to why there was a secondary visit...and by women bringing oils etc to anoint the body. This procedure sounds out of place. If Yeshua was alive in the tomb and the women were acting as nurses to attend to his wounds that would make sense (i guess)....

Interesting...in the tomb for 2 days, 2 nights (if that long at all)....couple hundred pounds of expensive aloe and myrrh (which I suspect are healing ointments of the day)...and women visiting the tomb after he had already been wrapped in the burial linen doesn't sound like a successful crucifixion to me....

 

[angellous_evangellous]

No - Rabbinic Judaism existed for as long as God had given the Jews the Torah.

It just didn't have the NAME until the second century, CE. The Pharisees were the purveyors of Rabbinic Judaism during the Temple times.

Today, we are Orthodox Jews. (And the name didn't appear until the 1800s, I'm aware.)

I see that you're disagreeing with me based on religious bias.

 

[truseeker]

In answer to dirty penguin's tag line about what's more likely - how about an all powerful, mysterious god created the universe and gave all kinds of proof to those who would open their eyes to see it.

 

[Beta]

O, yeah I can. And like I said, I could be wrong, but I've never come across this in my reading, but from what I have read I lean strongly towards women normally doing all the preparations of dead bodies. And it would be a supreme act of devotion, IMHO, if a man were to do anything like it.

I need to research it, too. If you find something definitive, please let me know.

I for one do not think any further research is necessary. For me the Bible offers enough information in this instance saying that the women were going to perform that duty - whether or not it was ever meant to happen.
I am sure jewish customs will vary but we are here concerned with scripture only (1Cor.15v3,4).

 

[Harmonious]

No one's going to steal my thunder.......I said this back in post #482....If FB said it first then cool...:bow:

But I'm glad you chimed in because this is the way I've always understood the burial rites of men and women in Judaism. I couldn't imagine it was lawful for a woman that is not married to the man to be able to look upon his body or touch that person, be they alive or dead. This is just one of the reasons I find the women visiting the tomb to be suspect.

Well, it's less that it is unlawful as much as it is immodest.

If there was no one else to perform the burial rites, members of the opposite sex should do it. But if members of the same sex are available, it is far more preferable for them to do it.

Not that you care but If the body of Yeshua was removed, dressed and wrapped in the burial linen them I'm confused as to why there was a secondary visit...and by women bringing oils etc to anoint the body. This procedure sounds out of place. If Yeshua was alive in the tomb and the women were acting as nurses to attend to his wounds that would make sense (i guess)....

I actually had a thread to ask that very question. This is where I asked about it.

Someone in a different forum actually answered that the reason for this secondary burial was sought was because... Jesus' body in that cave wasn't so much a burial as much as it was storage in a cool, dry, location until Shabbat was over, and Sunday during daylight hours would be the appropriate time to bury a person who died on Friday evening or on Shabbat.

Of course, that doesn't help anyone's argument about 3 days, because a body isn't supposed to be left overnight, with the exception of Shabbat...

If the cave was a proper burial, I remain confused as to why the women would come, as was evidenced in my thread.

If the cave was a storage place until a proper burial could be performed, then it almost makes sense, but then dismisses the whole 3 days thing.

Interesting...in the tomb for 2 days, 2 nights (if that long at all)....couple hundred pounds of expensive aloe and myrrh (which I suspect are healing ointments of the day)...and women visiting the tomb after he had already been wrapped in the burial linen doesn't sound like a successful crucifixion to me....

I don't begin to understand it, either.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

In answer to dirty penguin's tag line about what's more likely - how about an all powerful, mysterious god created the universe and gave all kinds of proof to those who would open their eyes to see it.

Didn't know this was gonna be a debate over my tag line. The tag line represents my "personal" view......not that I can prove your view wrong no more than you can show why my view is incorrect..... My screen name is (Dirty Penguin)...what's in a name....? Care to speculate as to why I chose it or can we just stay on topic...??????.....:sarcastic

 

[Harmonious]

I see that you're disagreeing with me based on religious bias.

Not really. I'm disagreeing with you based on Jewish law. I was just explaining that the "bias" I have, as you put it, is that old.

I have studied quite a bit about Temple law. The author that you brought was mistaken. I explained that both men and women went to the Temple, and contact with the dead would have rendered a person Ta'amei (bad translation, but close enough to be useful for now is "impure") and unfit to attend.

Only Cohanim (and Nazirim) were forbidden to come in contact with the dead. If you want to say that wives and daughters of Cohanim were permitted to have contact with the dead, and that Cohanim (who were men) were forbidden to have contact with the dead, I'll give you that.

But the idea that women did it for all people all the time is not at all accurate, when it comes to Jewish law or custom, including Temple times.

 

[smokydot]

Yes, it matters, because you've demonstrated repeatedly that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

This is reminiscent of other posts I've seen where one is criticized and called ignorant when they acknowledged their mistakes, as I referenced in post #169.

 

[smokydot]

But parthenos doesn't mean "virgin." It's a dynamic equivalent to almah, which doesn't mean virgin, either. Both mean "young girl" or "unmarried girl" but neither require her to be a virgin.

Greek didn't evolve out of Hebrew. . .there's no connection of the meaning of the Greek parthenos to the Hebrew almah.
That's fabricated from whole cloth.