What Day was Jesus Crucified?

[smokydot]

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2277815-post713.html

After deliberating the above referenced cause of action re: the parthenos, Docket #2277815,

the JURY (aka: The Facts)

finds in favor of the PLAINTIFF: smokydot.

CASE CLOSED.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

But Sunday actually began the day before at sunset. Close to 12 hours of Sunday had elapsed when the women arrived at the tomb.
He could have risen hours before and still risen on Sunday.


So, here's how those particular facts would shake out:
Day of Preparation -- Tuesday, Nisan 14
Ate Passover (Mk 14:12-18) -- Tuesday evening, Nisan 15
Crucified -- Wednesday, Nisan 15, annual Sabbath of Unleavened Bread
In tomb -- Wednesday evening (Nisan 16, annual Sabbath of Firstfruits) thru Saturday Sabbath evening (Nisan 19)
Women arrive at tomb -- Sunday (Nisan 19)

Okay, harmonious and dirty-penguin, help me out here.
My Sabbaths aren't working.
Could the Jews prepare his body for burial on an annual Sabbath (Nisan 15)?

I don't think so. The preparing of the body was done on the (Preparation before the Passover). In fact your scriptures and the law says the body could not remain on the cross during the Sabbath. The Passover fell on a Sabbath. The women arrived at the tomb the morning (as the sun was rising) on the first day. This would have been Sunday morning as the start of the day itself would have been Saturday even (the ending of the Sabbath day)....

 

[Poisonshady313]

Could the Jews prepare his body for burial on an annual Sabbath (Nisan 15)?

I'll take this one: The answer is no. They could not.

Which means the last supper could not have been the Feast of Unleavened bread on the 15th. Not only would his body not have been prepared for burial... but whatever crowd of Jews that supposedly had gathered for the crucifixion would not have existed either... because everyone would be at home, or at the Temple, doing Passover type things.

In addition... something Harmonious pointed out, the Sanhedrin never would have met at night... ESPECIALLY on Passover.

 

[fallingblood]

I'll take this one: The answer is no. They could not.

Which means the last supper could not have been the Feast of Unleavened bread on the 15th. Not only would his body not have been prepared for burial... but whatever crowd of Jews that supposedly had gathered for the crucifixion would not have existed either... because everyone would be at home, or at the Temple, doing Passover type things.

In addition... something Harmonious pointed out, the Sanhedrin never would have met at night... ESPECIALLY on Passover.

There is a way around all of that. For the Sanhedrin, there has been suggestion that it wasn't the full Sanhedrin that met. Instead, it was a private gathering, probably just the High Priest and a few cohorts, who met to deal with Jesus. I think this wouldn't be out of the question simply because the High Priest would have had a major stake in the situation. If Jesus was seen as a problem, and the High Priest did not do something to solve, or help solve the situation, Romans troops could have instead fixed it; by marching into the city. So I would see the High Priest in a very sticky situation.

On the other hand, it may have been a different day as well.

As for the preparing the body for burial, it is possible that there was no reason to. Crucifixion usually ended with the body being thrown in a shallow grave. That was after it hung on the cross for some time (possibly a few days even).

Then for the crowd, it could have not been Jews at all. The Gospels have a tendency to demonize Jews in general. So much of that could just be an attack on the Jews.



But then again, the story could have been changed anyway. It is possible that Jesus died on a completely separate day, and the Gospel writers simply got it wrong. They knew it was close to the Passover, but were not exactly sure. So they made a guess. That is probably the simpler answer.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I don't think so. The preparing of the body was done on the (Preparation before the Passover). In fact your scriptures and the law says the body could not remain on the cross during the Sabbath. The Passover fell on a Sabbath. The women arrived at the tomb the morning (as the sun was rising) on the first day. This would have been Sunday morning as the start of the day itself would have been Saturday even (the ending of the Sabbath day)....

See, the whole thing is just a jumbled mess of nonsense.

If you want a three days, three nights scenario, you would have to have a Wednesday crucifixion... but that screws with everything that has been said about it having to be on Friday.

Hell... even if you went with a "third day" scenario, you would have to have a Thursday crucifixion... and then it couldn't be said that he was crucified just before Passover because Passover can never begin on a Thursday night.

And if you maintain a Friday crucifixion, you throw a wrench in the whole three days three nights scenario.


So the conclusion is, the gospels were written either by idiots, or by people who figured the readers were idiots (or at least wouldn't know any better). The gospels so thoroughly contradict each other that anyone who holds steadfastly to Jesus being crucified on one day or another should be thought of as an idiot, because they're ignoring what one gospel or another said in order to make their point.

 

[Poisonshady313]

There is a way around all of that. For the Sanhedrin, there has been suggestion that it wasn't the full Sanhedrin that met. Instead, it was a private gathering, probably just the High Priest and a few cohorts, who met to deal with Jesus.

Like you were getting at with the end of your post regarding the crucifixion mob, the suggestion that the Sanhedrin (in whole or in part) had anything to do with this is simply an effort to demonize the Jews.

Then for the crowd, it could have not been Jews at all. The Gospels have a tendency to demonize Jews in general. So much of that could just be an attack on the Jews.

Pretty much.

 

[fallingblood]

Like you were getting at with the end of your post regarding the crucifixion mob, the suggestion that the Sanhedrin (in whole or in part) had anything to do with this is simply an effort to demonize the Jews.

I can see that.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I know I just said this in a post already, but I want to repeat it for emphasis. I want people to take notice, because it's important.

See, the whole thing is just a jumbled mess of nonsense.

If you want a three days, three nights scenario, you would have to have a Wednesday crucifixion... but that screws with everything that has been said about it having to be on Friday.

Hell... even if you went with a "third day" scenario, you would have to have a Thursday crucifixion... and then it couldn't be said that he was crucified just before Passover because Passover can never begin on a Thursday night.

And if you maintain a Friday crucifixion, you throw a wrench in the whole three days three nights scenario.


So the conclusion is, the gospels were written either by idiots, or by people who figured the readers were idiots (or at least wouldn't know any better). The gospels so thoroughly contradict each other that anyone who holds steadfastly to Jesus being crucified on one day or another should be thought of as an idiot, because they're ignoring what one gospel or another said in order to make their point.

 

[fallingblood]

So the conclusion is, the gospels were written either by idiots, or by people who figured the readers were idiots (or at least wouldn't know any better). The gospels so thoroughly contradict each other that anyone who holds steadfastly to Jesus being crucified on one day or another should be thought of as an idiot, because they're ignoring what one gospel or another said in order to make their point.

I think the latter is more likely, that the gospels were written by people who figured the readers wouldn't know any better. More so, I doubt they expected their Gospel to be placed into a book of scripture that would be used by Christians. More so, I don't think they expected their Gospels really to be compared much with each other.

However, I would maintain that there is a level of information that can be taken from them. For instance, when Jesus died, most likely will never know specifically. But it is most probable that it was around Passover, so we can have a general idea. I think the Gospels give us a gist of what happened, but not necessarily specifics.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

See, the whole thing is just a jumbled mess of nonsense.

If you want a three days, three nights scenario, you would have to have a Wednesday crucifixion... but that screws with everything that has been said about it having to be on Friday.

Hell... even if you went with a "third day" scenario, you would have to have a Thursday crucifixion... and then it couldn't be said that he was crucified just before Passover because Passover can never begin on a Thursday night.

And if you maintain a Friday crucifixion, you throw a wrench in the whole three days three nights scenario.


So the conclusion is, the gospels were written either by idiots, or by people who figured the readers were idiots (or at least wouldn't know any better). The gospels so thoroughly contradict each other that anyone who holds steadfastly to Jesus being crucified on one day or another should be thought of as an idiot, because they're ignoring what one gospel or another said in order to make their point.

Yep, I totally agree....no wonder it's taken so long, from my post at #407, almost up to this point to get people to even talk about it.....

 

[angellous_evangellous]

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2277815-post713.html

After considering the aforementioned cause of action, Docket #2277815,

the JURY (aka: The Facts)

finds in favor of the PLAINTIFF: smokydot.

You do realize that you cannot be both the plaintiff and judge.

 

[Beta]

Those are the Sabbaths that I am referring to.
Feast of Unleavened Bread was one of them, with a Sabbath on its first day and a Sabbath on the seventh, which is its last, day.
If the Feast began on a Thursday, for example, Thursday, Saturday and Wednesday in that seven-day feast period would all be Sabbaths.
That means the Sabbath of Nisan 15 could be on a week day, and Jesus rose after the following Saturday Sabbath.

What remains then is the day he rose, and Mt 28:1-7 indicates it was a Sunday.

The wednesday in that Passover-week or feast-period was NOT a Sabbath but the preparation day on which Jesus was crucified - not a sabbath.
The ANNUAL Sabbaths mostly fell on weekdays and on occasion even on a sunday or a weekly Sabbath.
When it says in Math.28v6 that he was risen and not there it's much more an implication of a past event than a present.

 

[Beta]

there are two kinds of sabbaths. the weekly sabbath on Saturday and annual sabbaths on days like passover. there could have been two sabbaths in the week when Jesus was crucified. one could have been on Thursday which would put the crucifiction on Wednesday and would allow the three days and three nights. remember Jesus himself said that the ONLY sign He was the son of God would be the 3 days and 3 nights in the grave. so if you do not believe He was in the tomb 72 hours then you are denying the one and only sign He said would prove who he was.

Well , thank you friend ! at last someone who reads scripture and does not rely on modern (human) understanding which btw is not to be relied on Prov.3v5.

 

[smokydot]

Like you were getting at with the end of your post regarding the crucifixion mob, the suggestion that the Sanhedrin (in whole or in part) had anything to do with this is simply an effort to demonize the Jews.

Like you demonize the writers of the NT?

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2279008-post765.html

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2279148-post768.html

Pretty much.

 

[smokydot]

I don't think so. The preparing of the body was done on the (Preparation before the Passover). In fact your scriptures and the law says the body could not remain on the cross during the Sabbath. The Passover fell on a Sabbath. The women arrived at the tomb the morning (as the sun was rising) on the first day. This would have been Sunday morning as the start of the day itself would have been Saturday even (the ending of the Sabbath day)....

But the Jews didn't actually nail him to the cross, so Jesus followers had no control over his crucifixion on the annual Sabbath of Unleavened Bread.
However, the followers of Jesus did have control over him not remaining on the cross for the next day's annual Sabbath of Firstfruits.
So at this point to me, the chronology could be as follows:

Day of Preparation for Passover/Unleavened Bread - Tuesday, Nisan 14
Passover Meal (Mk 14:12-18) - Tuesday evening, Nisan 15
Crucifixion - Wednesday, Nisan 15, annual Sabbath of Unleavened Bread
Days in Tomb - Wednesday evening, Nisan 16, annual Sabbath of First Fruits to Saturday Sabbath evening, Nisan 19

If the Jews were allowed to lead their ox or donkey out of the stall and to water on a Sabbath (Lk 13:15), or to pull their donkey or ox
out of a well on the Sabbath (Lk 14:5), then certainly they were allowed to take Jesus down from the cross and entomb him on a Sabbath.

But the question remains: why did the women not complete the burial preparation on Friday, instead of waiting until Sunday?

Friday would have been a Day of Preparation for the Saturday Sabbath.
Would there even have been time to prepare the ointments, travel to the tomb, and anoint the body before sundown, in addition to all the other preparations required for the next day's Saturday Sabbath?
There probably was time only to prepare the ointments, considering all the other preparations required of the day, meaning they had to wait until Sunday before they could go to the tomb?

Any reason why this chronology doesn't work?

 

[smokydot]

Yep, I totally agree....no wonder it's taken so long, from my post at #407, almost up to this point to get people to even talk about it.....

We got sidetracked by the following cause of action:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2278957-post761.html

 

[smokydot]

Well , thank you friend ! at last someone who reads scripture and does not rely on modern (human) understanding which btw is not to be relied on Prov.3v5.

Thursday would have been the annual Sabbath of First Fruits, Nisan 16,

while Wednesday was the annual Sabbath of Unleavened Bread, Nisan 15,

and Tuesday was the Day of Preparation for Passover/Unleavened Bread, Nisan 14,

according to Lev 23:5-11.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2277815-post713.html

After deliberating the above referenced cause of action, Docket #2277815,

the JURY (aka: The Facts)

finds in favor of the PLAINTIFF: smokydot.

CASE CLOSED.

In the matter of docket # 2277815, we the people of RF find smokydot guilty of perjury and obstruction of justice.

Smokydot has plagiarized, repeatedly lied, and purposefully deceived the court with circular and corrupted reasoning, resulting in more than 100 counts of perjury.

In acting as his own judge and jury, he has subverted the democratic process and pretended to be able to escape the review of his peers. By acting as his own judge and jury, he has highjacked the facts of his on case and forced them a voice on his behalf, demonstrating a gross negligence and disdain for the truth.

This court sentences smokydot to a basic reasoning skills seminar, English vocabulary lessons, and 20 hours in an RF school of etiquette for elocution and manners.

Should smokydot not report to the appropriate schools within 14 days, he will make a video of himself in a tutu reading a script provided by the court and post it on YouTube.

BANGS GAVEL

 

[Poisonshady313]

Any reason why this chronology doesn't work?

Yes. The 15th of Nisan can never begin on a Tuesday night.

It's a rule called Lo B'du Pesach. It's been that way at least since the Babylonian Exile.

The Hebrew letters that make up the word B'du correspond to the numbers 2, 4, and 6... as in, the days of the week.

The daylight hours of the 15th of Nisan can never be on a Monday, Wednesday, or Friday... which means the beginning of the 15th of Nisan can never be on a Sunday, Tuesday, or Thursday.

 

[Poisonshady313]

If the Jews were allowed to lead their ox or donkey out of the stall and to water on a Sabbath (Lk 13:15), or to pull their donkey or ox
out of a well on the Sabbath (Lk 14:5), then certainly they were allowed to take Jesus down from the cross and entomb him on a Sabbath.

Not so.

In Jewish law, someone who dies should be buried before the sun sets on the day. (if they die at night, then before the sun sets on the following day).

Unless they die during the Sabbath. Then they wait until Sunday.